To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

I love the race recap and the photos. I have to say, the donuts look amazing on a proper monitor and not just my phone!

I'm on board with Ariel484. I do not think you need to do a studio all the time, but a handful of times as you start out may be helpful. I know there is an Iyengar in Monona, which will drill in proper alignment- I find that style not very meditative but good for correcting my lazy posture from time to time. I also know there were at least 2 places (near the cannery? on the isthmus?) that had a Saturday class in the 7am time range when I visited Madison last summer. So, look around, you may find something! Also, our local Zen Buddhist temple has really short classes to attract new people with a time crunch, so I really do think you can find something somewhere that works occasionally. There are a million and one YouTube videos, and the ones but out by Rodney Yee/Gaiam and Yoga by Adrianne are pretty chill and good for basic flexibility and mindfulness without lots of sanskrit words. They are really beginner videos and if you take them as such I think it is a good brief intro until you can find a bit of time to go to a proper class where someone would see your body and let you know 'rotate your hips slightly' or whatever.
 
Great recap. It's wonderful that Mike was there with you. I bought something at the expo that was pineapple themed, which is another weird coincidence. Pics to come in my recap tomorrow.
I'm not sure how I would have faired if I felt pain starting at mile 4. kudos for keeping a positive attitude and gutting it out. And thank you for sticking around despite your legs obviously being very tired.

Thanks! Some weird Pineapple under the sea theme going on with the DIS I guess. Of course I was going to stick around. We've gone from 8k to marathon over the last almost three years together. I wasn't going to miss the marathon finish.

I enjoyed reading your recap. It got me to thinking about a few things for the marathon come January. I almost always run alone. However I think for the marathon, I may need to find a pace group and stick with them if it comes down to it. I'm still processing a lot about the mental aspect of tackling a marathon.

Thanks! There are definite pros and cons to running with a pace group. When I was running with Mike, I was still in control of the pace. I was running based on how I felt at the time. Whereas a pace group is meant to run at a set average pace over the course of the race. So slightly different between my Chicago experience and a true pace group. But if it's something you are considering, then we should make sure to practice some run/walk ratios around your projected Dopey marathon finish time. Just so those ratios don't feel entirely awkward on race day.

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(link)

Since your current M Tempo is 80/30 with a much slower run pace, then we'd have to move some of the runs to a 30/30 (or 15/30) with a much faster run pace to make up the difference. Just let me know and we can crunch the numbers.

If you’re on Facebook, ask to join the PB&J Buy-Sell-Trade group. I just got a Kinetic Smart Trainer for the NOLA house off there - slightly used - for under $200. It has InRide, so it will work with TrainerRoad (which I use) and Zwift. I never pay full price for cycling stuff at this point, just because I don’t see the point.

Sounds good, I'll look into it.

Thank you!! (Also sorry to hijack, Billy.)

Hijack away!

I’d recommend at least a few classes with a yoga instructor for the same reasons everyone else said...otherwise you get this scenario (at least I have...replace “running” with “yoga” of course):
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Also injuries and whatnot. But once you have the basics down you could look on YouTube or whatever. I definitely get the difficulty of scheduling, and yoga classes normally aren’t super cheap (I buy a package to get a price break but it’s still like $10-$12 per class - worth it to me but not “free” like going out for a run).

Totally get that one!

Great recap! You showed a lot of grit fighting your injuries, and impressive finish for the volume you had leading up. From an effort stand point it was a simply fantastic day! Although you didn’t PR, I still think it gets you closer to your goal and will serve you well for your next race.

Thanks!

I was going to ask how the donuts were, and then felt the pink box looked familiar and thought, surely not THE Stan’s Donuts?! They originated from my (grad school) alma mater! Wow, brought up a lot of food memories! Nice guy but the original location isn’t hip like the Chicago spots. I hope you enjoyed them, I personally always got the chocolate peanut butter with bananas too :)

The one and only Stan! They were good, but if I'm being honest the Apple Fritter from Green Bush still remains supreme.

I love the race recap and the photos. I have to say, the donuts look amazing on a proper monitor and not just my phone!

I'm on board with Ariel484. I do not think you need to do a studio all the time, but a handful of times as you start out may be helpful. I know there is an Iyengar in Monona, which will drill in proper alignment- I find that style not very meditative but good for correcting my lazy posture from time to time. I also know there were at least 2 places (near the cannery? on the isthmus?) that had a Saturday class in the 7am time range when I visited Madison last summer. So, look around, you may find something! Also, our local Zen Buddhist temple has really short classes to attract new people with a time crunch, so I really do think you can find something somewhere that works occasionally. There are a million and one YouTube videos, and the ones but out by Rodney Yee/Gaiam and Yoga by Adrianne are pretty chill and good for basic flexibility and mindfulness without lots of sanskrit words. They are really beginner videos and if you take them as such I think it is a good brief intro until you can find a bit of time to go to a proper class where someone would see your body and let you know 'rotate your hips slightly' or whatever.

Thanks! The doughnuts were tasty.

Thanks for the tips. I'll check those out.
 
That's fair about Des. She ran a marathon about 15 min slower than anything in the previous 4 years because of the conditions. But she was able to maintain a relatively even pace from beginning to end. She only saw 5k split fluctuations of about 5-6 seconds/mile from 5k to the finish. From 0-5k she was about 15 seconds per mile slower.

So let's say I did do the 7:00 and continued to hold it in Lakefront 2017. Since I actually had paces between 7:04-7:11 up till mile 17 (albeit blind) I'd say I wasn't too far off. But yet come mile 17, I succumbed to fatigue and couldn't hold that pace anymore. I also did lose motivation after seeing mile 18 come in at 7:33 (I didn't check from mile 4 to 17) when I happened to check in. I ended up running 7:33-8:06 from Mile 18 to the finish. So I'm not sure I see whether I would have actually been able to hold a faster pace and do it for longer. I do know that come the end of the race things were getting pretty tough even at the slower pace. But we do know a loss of motivation can change things.

It's a good question to wonder, and of course we'll never know what could have happened. I remember reading in Matt Fitzgerald's book "How Bad Do You Want It?" that test subjects in controlled experiment "blind" races were able to increase effort beyond their reported "max" when told they were in the lead or catching up to the leader. Motivation can be a hugely powerful thing. I've read a number of studies which suggest we hit our mental limits long before we hit our physical limits. I think we've discussed before the central governor theory of fatigue which emphasizes the brain's role in determining fatigue levels. I'm still a big believer in that theory because it correlates with my own experiences as a runner and those of a lot of athletes I've talked to and read about.

When I ran my PR marathon in 2016, I still remember vividly the mental questions I was asking myself in the final miles. I was seriously questioning why I was trying for sub-3:15 (the standard for men for Chicago at the time) when my BQ was only 3:25. I'd tried the exact same thing in 2015, only to lose the 3:15 pace group at around mile 19 and finish in 3:17. I still got into Boston but not Chicago, and it bothered me enough that I had the same goal in 2016. I literally spent the last 5 miles of that 2016 race staring at the feet of the pace leader and desperately trying to stay with him. It was definitely the hardest I've ever raced at that distance in my life. When I think about why I missed my goal in 2015 but made it in 2016, nothing in the training stands out. I used the same plan both times, ran essentially the same miles, and hit about the same paces. Part of it is I paced 2015 a little poorly (started too fast), but otherwise the weather was about the same, and I was running the same course. I just think my motivation was stronger in 2016. My experience level was of course higher in 2016, too, but I don't think my fitness level was different at all.

Looking at Lakefront in 2017, weren't you already behind goal pace when you checked your watch at mile 17? For me, that can be a huge mental stumbling block. I've run negative splits, but not big ones, and mostly because the course favored those sorts of splits. I know that if I get much behind goal pace, I'm not getting that time back, and my motivation takes a huge nosedive. This is why my strategy is always to get to goal pace ASAP and just hold, because it's comforting to tell myself when the fatigue starts hitting that I just need to hold pace and not speed up and I'll still get my goal. If, say, you were experiencing that same mile 17 level of fatigue but you were at goal pace and at mile 24, do you think you had 2.2 miles more of 7:00 miles in you? I think you probably did if, as you say, the training results suggested your goal was realistic and achievable. Your training and preparation is quite impressive (well beyond mine!) and I don't doubt your own self-assessment of it.

Also, @BikeFan great response! I’d say its an important skill to have regardless of strategy. Chicago didn’t always have reliable GPS, that could easily throw you off if you didn’t know the feel. Also, stuff goes wrong conditions change, etc... being able to adapt on the fly is important.

Thanks, and yes, knowing your pace by feel is a great skill to have as a runner. Unfortunately, I'm not much better at it now than I was as a beginner. :o A huge part of that is that I use a lot of disassociation and visualization mental techniques when I'm running hard, so my focus isn't on pace. I gauge pace based on effort level alone, which is of course an imprecise measure. In an actual race, I just set my watch to stopwatch mode and check my splits on the mile markers (hopefully, they're accurate!). This tells me where I am vs. goal pace, and whether I need to make adjustments in effort level. I don't really need GPS for that. I only look at my actual splits after the race.
 


Great recap, Billy. I’m always impressed with how much you retain. I'm usually like, “I ran by a tree...I think?”

Anyway, I really hope you’re able to get back to 100 percent soon. You’ll get that BQ in no time.
 
Nice recap Billy...it was a lot of fun running together. I'm going to try and get a recap of my own together but I see you stole all of my race photos :rolleyes:

Thanks Mike! I'll be interested to read what you can remember from a somewhat less foggy mind. I left some good ones. Although I was surprised at the bunny ears.

It's a good question to wonder, and of course we'll never know what could have happened. I remember reading in Matt Fitzgerald's book "How Bad Do You Want It?" that test subjects in controlled experiment "blind" races were able to increase effort beyond their reported "max" when told they were in the lead or catching up to the leader. Motivation can be a hugely powerful thing. I've read a number of studies which suggest we hit our mental limits long before we hit our physical limits. I think we've discussed before the central governor theory of fatigue which emphasizes the brain's role in determining fatigue levels. I'm still a big believer in that theory because it correlates with my own experiences as a runner and those of a lot of athletes I've talked to and read about.

Very much falls in line with the Psychobiological Model of Endurance with the Motivational Intensity Theory. But yes, having that carrot at the end of the stick can be a huge motivator to keep going. Conversely, seeing that goal slip away can be demoralizing and make the race seem much harder. I've found I can absolutely go either way. I can be motivated by things going well (Lakefront 2015 and Disney 2018 races) and I can be demoralized by the pace slipping away (WI 2015).

Looking at Lakefront in 2017, weren't you already behind goal pace when you checked your watch at mile 17? For me, that can be a huge mental stumbling block. I've run negative splits, but not big ones, and mostly because the course favored those sorts of splits. I know that if I get much behind goal pace, I'm not getting that time back, and my motivation takes a huge nosedive. This is why my strategy is always to get to goal pace ASAP and just hold, because it's comforting to tell myself when the fatigue starts hitting that I just need to hold pace and not speed up and I'll still get my goal. If, say, you were experiencing that same mile 17 level of fatigue but you were at goal pace and at mile 24, do you think you had 2.2 miles more of 7:00 miles in you? I think you probably did if, as you say, the training results suggested your goal was realistic and achievable. Your training and preparation is quite impressive (well beyond mine!) and I don't doubt your own self-assessment of it.

Lakefront 2017 recap (link)

I didn't actually know if I was behind pace goal. I knew the first 4 miles were slow because I looked and it was really bothering me mentally. Despite holding a pace I felt was marathon tempo it was just a bit faster than I was willing to go at that point to get down to 7:00. Then I went blind. I remember seeing the HM clock and being happy with the time (1:33:32, a then HM PR) and knew I've run a -5 min second half on that course (2015). So the motivation was still high and I knew I was putting in a good effort from 13.1 to 17 pushing as hard as I could. But when I saw the 19 mile split (per the recap and not my memory) at 7:38 after having been pushing as hard as I could, I knew it was over at that point and the motivation waned. It's hard to say if I would have done better.

I know I've done the opposite as well. WI Marathon 2015 everything told me I was prepared to run a sub-4.

So, on May 2nd, 2015 I attempted my 5th marathon (and 3rd non-multi race). It was the Wisconsin Marathon in Kenosha. I can vividly remember during the warm-up stretches looking over to my wife and saying “This warm up feels good. Today is going to be the day I break 4 hours.” Even though the HMs predicted I could run a 3:49, I only really wanted to break 4. So, I decided to stick with pacing around a 9:09 min/mile. The first few miles went according to plan. An 8:57, then 9:02, 9:11, 9:11, 9:12, and then 9:19. Oh no, what’s that? A bit too slow. Better pick up the effort. Then a 9:06, 9:15. Ahh, I’m falling off pace. It’s only a few seconds, but every second matters. Then mile 9 was a 9:23. Things were falling apart on me. All that work, everything for nothing. I knew based on the course map that I would make a loop back to Steph, G, and the start/finish at mile 11. I just wanted to walk off the course. I seriously considered a DNF. I wasn’t sick, injured, etc. I just wasn’t having the day I had imagined for the last several weeks of 15+ mile long training runs. I was so mad. I decided since I’m not injured to just continue running. If I DNF today, then it might open up a precedent in future races that don’t go my way to DNF again and again. I needed to use this as a learning experience. By mile 15, the wheels had truly fallen off. I decided to take longer and longer walking breaks. Whenever, I’d see a spectator or an aid station, I’d muster a smile, but inside I was dying. I was just so over it. Miles 21-26 were (13:11, 14:53, 16:44, 15:50, 15:53, 14:13, and 12:49). I finished in 4:58:54.

I ran paying very close attention to splits. I saw them slip and increased the effort to maintain. And when I saw them continue to slip away then I lost motivation. That's marathon pacing in a nutshell for me I guess. When things are going well, then things seem easy and motivation stays high. When things are going poorly, then it can snowball into a much bigger drop-off. Hence the reason I've gone blind to pacing. If I don't know things are going poorly then I can't lose motivation. Conversely, if things were going really well I couldn't get continued extra motivation because of it. It's kind of a tough mental hurdle for me to figure out. Since the beginning of running, my mind has almost always been my own worst enemy.

Great recap, Billy. I’m always impressed with how much you retain. I'm usually like, “I ran by a tree...I think?”

Thanks!

Anyway, I really hope you’re able to get back to 100 percent soon. You’ll get that BQ in no time.

Thanks! I'm hoping mixing it up will allow some maintenance of fitness but allow things to heal yet again. The BQ is a lifetime goal, which means I've still got all my life to continue to reach for it.

Congratulations on another race well run! I always enjoy reading your recaps- such great detail! I hope your recovery goes well :)

Thanks!
 


Great recap. Too bad you did not make it to Gino’s. We were there at 11, you definitely would have bumped into us. I would like to do a recap in the Chicago thread, but with all this mental talk I wanted to share a bit. Tagging a few that have been providing some good advice (guess I am hijacking for a moment) @BikeFan, @FFigawi, @canglim52 .

I had a decent race through 20 miles. In general fairly consistent miles, 8:35s, sometimes a tad faster and just 2 miles in that up at 8:50 and one of those was to take a gel so definitely needed. I knew I needed to stay in the 8:30 to 8:45 to hit 3:50. Mile 20 itself was a little slow at 8:50, am guessing extended water knowing I had a 10k left. The next two miles were ok back at 8:35. With 4 miles it was tough I took my last water stop there (I had electrolytes with me). That mile was my slowest at 9:01. Then at mile 24, physically I was beat. Everything hurt. I am guessing I started to cramp. My body felt like it was dying and my head was ready to quit. However some how I told myself I had to move. The math in my head was not working well and with 2.2 miles I was afraid at current 9:00 pace or slower I would be very very close to that 3:50. I wanted to stop for water but I could not. I did not want to lose that time it was precious at this point. I think what got me through, I did not want to squander the 24 miles I had run so well and then have to do this all again at Disney to try and qualify. This is definitely the most I hurt in the last miles. I did my last two miles at 9:00 and then 8:40.

After it was all done, I said mentally that was the hardest thing I had to do. I am not sure how I did it but I had to. I am actually quite proud of that. I had the training but that mental part at 24 to just do it. I don’t know where it came from but am very proud.

I will say my NOLA marathon in 2017 (previous PR) at 3:54, my wheels fell off at mile 23. I remember my knee killing me and the extended water break. I had a 5k left. At that point my time goal was only sub 4, so I knew that was in the bag at that point. I guess I am thankful I held on one more mile, wheels fell off at 24. It was just this time I was much closer to that time goal and did not have the luxury to stop. I think this also means I need to push 2 more marathons so that the wheels fall off at the finish :). Thanks for letting me hijack.
 
Congrats on finishing the race and providing such a great recap!

Thanks!

Great recap. Too bad you did not make it to Gino’s. We were there at 11, you definitely would have bumped into us.

Thanks! Bummer, next time I guess!

I had a decent race through 20 miles. In general fairly consistent miles, 8:35s, sometimes a tad faster and just 2 miles in that up at 8:50 and one of those was to take a gel so definitely needed. I knew I needed to stay in the 8:30 to 8:45 to hit 3:50. Mile 20 itself was a little slow at 8:50, am guessing extended water knowing I had a 10k left. The next two miles were ok back at 8:35. With 4 miles it was tough I took my last water stop there (I had electrolytes with me). That mile was my slowest at 9:01. Then at mile 24, physically I was beat. Everything hurt. I am guessing I started to cramp. My body felt like it was dying and my head was ready to quit. However some how I told myself I had to move. The math in my head was not working well and with 2.2 miles I was afraid at current 9:00 pace or slower I would be very very close to that 3:50. I wanted to stop for water but I could not. I did not want to lose that time it was precious at this point. I think what got me through, I did not want to squander the 24 miles I had run so well and then have to do this all again at Disney to try and qualify. This is definitely the most I hurt in the last miles. I did my last two miles at 9:00 and then 8:40.

After it was all done, I said mentally that was the hardest thing I had to do. I am not sure how I did it but I had to. I am actually quite proud of that. I had the training but that mental part at 24 to just do it. I don’t know where it came from but am very proud.

I will say my NOLA marathon in 2017 (previous PR) at 3:54, my wheels fell off at mile 23. I remember my knee killing me and the extended water break. I had a 5k left. At that point my time goal was only sub 4, so I knew that was in the bag at that point. I guess I am thankful I held on one more mile, wheels fell off at 24. It was just this time I was much closer to that time goal and did not have the luxury to stop. I think this also means I need to push 2 more marathons so that the wheels fall off at the finish :). Thanks for letting me hijack.

Hijack away! I'm just so happy you were able to achieve that BQ. It's a tremendous accomplishment. You earned every second of it through training and through those last few miles.
 
Very much falls in line with the Psychobiological Model of Endurance with the Motivational Intensity Theory. But yes, having that carrot at the end of the stick can be a huge motivator to keep going. Conversely, seeing that goal slip away can be demoralizing and make the race seem much harder. I've found I can absolutely go either way. I can be motivated by things going well (Lakefront 2015 and Disney 2018 races) and I can be demoralized by the pace slipping away (WI 2015).

Lakefront 2017 recap (link)

I didn't actually know if I was behind pace goal. I knew the first 4 miles were slow because I looked and it was really bothering me mentally. Despite holding a pace I felt was marathon tempo it was just a bit faster than I was willing to go at that point to get down to 7:00. Then I went blind. I remember seeing the HM clock and being happy with the time (1:33:32, a then HM PR) and knew I've run a -5 min second half on that course (2015). So the motivation was still high and I knew I was putting in a good effort from 13.1 to 17 pushing as hard as I could. But when I saw the 19 mile split (per the recap and not my memory) at 7:38 after having been pushing as hard as I could, I knew it was over at that point and the motivation waned. It's hard to say if I would have done better.

I know I've done the opposite as well. WI Marathon 2015 everything told me I was prepared to run a sub-4.

So, on May 2nd, 2015 I attempted my 5th marathon (and 3rd non-multi race). It was the Wisconsin Marathon in Kenosha. I can vividly remember during the warm-up stretches looking over to my wife and saying “This warm up feels good. Today is going to be the day I break 4 hours.” Even though the HMs predicted I could run a 3:49, I only really wanted to break 4. So, I decided to stick with pacing around a 9:09 min/mile. The first few miles went according to plan. An 8:57, then 9:02, 9:11, 9:11, 9:12, and then 9:19. Oh no, what’s that? A bit too slow. Better pick up the effort. Then a 9:06, 9:15. Ahh, I’m falling off pace. It’s only a few seconds, but every second matters. Then mile 9 was a 9:23. Things were falling apart on me. All that work, everything for nothing. I knew based on the course map that I would make a loop back to Steph, G, and the start/finish at mile 11. I just wanted to walk off the course. I seriously considered a DNF. I wasn’t sick, injured, etc. I just wasn’t having the day I had imagined for the last several weeks of 15+ mile long training runs. I was so mad. I decided since I’m not injured to just continue running. If I DNF today, then it might open up a precedent in future races that don’t go my way to DNF again and again. I needed to use this as a learning experience. By mile 15, the wheels had truly fallen off. I decided to take longer and longer walking breaks. Whenever, I’d see a spectator or an aid station, I’d muster a smile, but inside I was dying. I was just so over it. Miles 21-26 were (13:11, 14:53, 16:44, 15:50, 15:53, 14:13, and 12:49). I finished in 4:58:54.

I ran paying very close attention to splits. I saw them slip and increased the effort to maintain. And when I saw them continue to slip away then I lost motivation. That's marathon pacing in a nutshell for me I guess. When things are going well, then things seem easy and motivation stays high. When things are going poorly, then it can snowball into a much bigger drop-off. Hence the reason I've gone blind to pacing. If I don't know things are going poorly then I can't lose motivation. Conversely, if things were going really well I couldn't get continued extra motivation because of it. It's kind of a tough mental hurdle for me to figure out. Since the beginning of running, my mind has almost always been my own worst enemy.

Your insights on your past performances are solid, but I've bolded a few lines which really stand out to me. Your experiences don't sound that dissimilar to my own or any other serious runners I know - when a race is going badly and I know my goal is pretty much out of reach, the wheels definitely come off in a big way, and my running friends have experienced the same sort of plummeting drop in motivation. No one's going to kill themselves out there to run something like their 8th fastest marathon. It's just not worth it for most of us. We see the same sort of thing with the elites. They have an astonishingly high DNF rate (66% this year in Boston's miserable weather) when they know they aren't have a good day. Part of it is of course preservation of their bodies for the next race, but I think that's only part of it. Surely their motivation is gone as well. In your situation, I worry that blind pacing could rob you of the extra motivation of knowing you're on pace and closer to hitting your goal. I know I definitely need that motivation, and can't imagine running successfully without it. As for losing motivation when things are going poorly, that doesn't bother me so much. I try to start a race being at peace with the fact I could miss my goal (which I've certainly done), and that's just part of the risk of setting a worthy goal. Besides, if I'm absolutely suffering out there and I'm still off A goal pace, I'd rather just know now so I can back off and change my goal from A goal to B or C goal, or to just finish. There's no point in suffering unnecessarily, and a few times when I missed A goal I was still able to make B or C goals because I backed off soon enough to control the fade.

My youngest brother also struggled with mental barriers. Despite having a half PR of 1:35, he always struggled in the full and experienced significant fades. His marathon PR was only 3:45, which he knew was not his full potential and didn't correlate with his half time at all. When he decided to try for a BQ (sub-3:15 for him), he hired a coach who not only prepared him well, but also ran his target marathon with him, and talked him through his mental struggles late in the race. He ultimately ran a 3:07, a huge PR, and he's convinced he could not have done it without the coach running beside him to talk through the race. I don't know how true that is, but the result speak for itself. Mental hurdles are common to athletes and when we find ways to overcome them, the results can be huge.

Your future plans following Chicago sound good, especially focusing on shorter distances like the half. I'd only add, if you can, to throw in a marathon or two next year as a non-target race. The endurance training is of course going to be beneficial and being in the marathon environment without the pre-race anxiety of having solid goals might be a good thing mentally. I'm thinking about what you said regarding your heart rate while waiting in the corral at Chicago, and how much lower it was then, versus other target marathons you've run. I've certainly benefited from running marathons and other events with no goal other than finish and have fun. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. Hope your recovery goes well!
 
Great recap. Too bad you did not make it to Gino’s. We were there at 11, you definitely would have bumped into us. I would like to do a recap in the Chicago thread, but with all this mental talk I wanted to share a bit. Tagging a few that have been providing some good advice (guess I am hijacking for a moment) @BikeFan, @FFigawi, @canglim52 .

I had a decent race through 20 miles. In general fairly consistent miles, 8:35s, sometimes a tad faster and just 2 miles in that up at 8:50 and one of those was to take a gel so definitely needed. I knew I needed to stay in the 8:30 to 8:45 to hit 3:50. Mile 20 itself was a little slow at 8:50, am guessing extended water knowing I had a 10k left. The next two miles were ok back at 8:35. With 4 miles it was tough I took my last water stop there (I had electrolytes with me). That mile was my slowest at 9:01. Then at mile 24, physically I was beat. Everything hurt. I am guessing I started to cramp. My body felt like it was dying and my head was ready to quit. However some how I told myself I had to move. The math in my head was not working well and with 2.2 miles I was afraid at current 9:00 pace or slower I would be very very close to that 3:50. I wanted to stop for water but I could not. I did not want to lose that time it was precious at this point. I think what got me through, I did not want to squander the 24 miles I had run so well and then have to do this all again at Disney to try and qualify. This is definitely the most I hurt in the last miles. I did my last two miles at 9:00 and then 8:40.

After it was all done, I said mentally that was the hardest thing I had to do. I am not sure how I did it but I had to. I am actually quite proud of that. I had the training but that mental part at 24 to just do it. I don’t know where it came from but am very proud.

I will say my NOLA marathon in 2017 (previous PR) at 3:54, my wheels fell off at mile 23. I remember my knee killing me and the extended water break. I had a 5k left. At that point my time goal was only sub 4, so I knew that was in the bag at that point. I guess I am thankful I held on one more mile, wheels fell off at 24. It was just this time I was much closer to that time goal and did not have the luxury to stop. I think this also means I need to push 2 more marathons so that the wheels fall off at the finish :). Thanks for letting me hijack.

I heard miles 23/24 are considered the wall. I wonder how everyone trains for the marathon mentally. It sounds like it's almost as tough mentally as it is physically.
 
I heard miles 23/24 are considered the wall. I wonder how everyone trains for the marathon mentally. It sounds like it's almost as tough mentally as it is physically.

The "wall" is much more a function of pace than it is of distance. Plenty of marathoners here and elsewhere have run slow (for them) marathons and never experienced the wall. With good training and proper pacing, it's certainly possible to run a full marathon and stay in your comfort zone the whole time. If you're looking to race a marathon to your full potential, you're going to hit the wall at some point, which is why pacing is so important. Hit the wall too soon and it's probably going to be a rough day.
 
The "wall" is much more a function of pace than it is of distance. Plenty of marathoners here and elsewhere have run slow (for them) marathons and never experienced the wall. With good training and proper pacing, it's certainly possible to run a full marathon and stay in your comfort zone the whole time. If you're looking to race a marathon to your full potential, you're going to hit the wall at some point, which is why pacing is so important. Hit the wall too soon and it's probably going to be a rough day.

That makes me feel better. While I know billy’s plans are about feeling good at the finish, I feel a bit bad that I definitely can’t say that. BUT I was not trying to finish I was racing. To be honest if I had felt good at the finish I might have thought I did not push enough. I feel like I did the very best I could that day and left everything out there. I was trying to BQ and wanted as much cushion as possible. I am pretty hopeful I made it, but at least I can say I gave it everything. No regrets.

BTW, just back from my yoga session. It was something I started doing with this training cycle. Once a week yin yoga on Wednesday. It seemed to help. I definitely feel better now.
 
Since your current M Tempo is 80/30 with a much slower run pace, then we'd have to move some of the runs to a 30/30 (or 15/30) with a much faster run pace to make up the difference. Just let me know and we can crunch the numbers.
You may need to remind me to address this with you next week including my thoughts on briefly running with a pace group during Dark Side. I did that as a test for a possible attempt at the marathon.

I'm in survival mode right now due to a massive work deadline coming on Monday.
 
That makes me feel better. While I know billy’s plans are about feeling good at the finish, I feel a bit bad that I definitely can’t say that. BUT I was not trying to finish I was racing. To be honest if I had felt good at the finish I might have thought I did not push enough. I feel like I did the very best I could that day and left everything out there. I was trying to BQ and wanted as much cushion as possible. I am pretty hopeful I made it, but at least I can say I gave it everything. No regrets.

That's the way you should feel at the end of a marathon you race - like you left everything you had out on the road, and you have no regrets about the performance. Hopefully, you feel good about the result, but it's unlikely you're going to feel good about the effort involved! If you gave everything you had, it's going to be uncomfortable. If you look closely at the men's finish in Chicago, 2nd place (Bayih) collapsed just after crossing the line! He was probably absolutely exhausted at that point and had left it all out on the road.
 
Your insights on your past performances are solid, but I've bolded a few lines which really stand out to me. Your experiences don't sound that dissimilar to my own or any other serious runners I know - when a race is going badly and I know my goal is pretty much out of reach, the wheels definitely come off in a big way, and my running friends have experienced the same sort of plummeting drop in motivation. No one's going to kill themselves out there to run something like their 8th fastest marathon. It's just not worth it for most of us. We see the same sort of thing with the elites. They have an astonishingly high DNF rate (66% this year in Boston's miserable weather) when they know they aren't have a good day. Part of it is of course preservation of their bodies for the next race, but I think that's only part of it. Surely their motivation is gone as well.

All sounds about right to me.

In your situation, I worry that blind pacing could rob you of the extra motivation of knowing you're on pace and closer to hitting your goal. I know I definitely need that motivation, and can't imagine running successfully without it. As for losing motivation when things are going poorly, that doesn't bother me so much. I try to start a race being at peace with the fact I could miss my goal (which I've certainly done), and that's just part of the risk of setting a worthy goal. Besides, if I'm absolutely suffering out there and I'm still off A goal pace, I'd rather just know now so I can back off and change my goal from A goal to B or C goal, or to just finish. There's no point in suffering unnecessarily, and a few times when I missed A goal I was still able to make B or C goals because I backed off soon enough to control the fade.

It's definitely possible. I do know with 100% certainty in my mind that if I had run the 2018 Disney Marathon as a solo event I would have broken 3 hours. No doubt in my mind about that. Even in the moment, the thought had crossed my mind. I had an outstanding training cycle. The weather conditions were seemingly near perfect. So it seemed like a perfect chance to nail a perfect race. But I ended up opting for the choice of racing all 4 races as was my intention when I arrived there. I didn't want to risk the chance I didn't break 3 hours on the possibility of not getting that 5th Dopey. So I went with the safer choice. Now, that was in my mind a safe decision because I was going to run a sub-2:52 in Chicago. But it didn't play out that way. I got injured right after Dopey. In July I got a glimpse of the same pre-Dopey fitness. And then in August, injured again. So if someone would have told me that I would have spent nearly the entire 2018 year marred by injuries, then I probably would have skipped the other Dopey races and just done the marathon for a sub-3 attempt. But it's a matter of retrospect and I can't change the past.

As for losing motivation when things are going poorly, that doesn't bother me so much.

And that's what does bother me. I haven't been able to shake that yet. I put in a tremendous amount of training specifically for a certain purpose. So when things go bad, they bother me immensely. I tried doing more races so I had more opportunities. But then I would just bag on races early because "I had another chance coming up" or at least I would mentally. So I haven't quite nailed down that perfect balance yet, other than doing blind racing so I can't lose motivation (but then conversely can't gain more motivation).

My youngest brother also struggled with mental barriers. Despite having a half PR of 1:35, he always struggled in the full and experienced significant fades. His marathon PR was only 3:45, which he knew was not his full potential and didn't correlate with his half time at all. When he decided to try for a BQ (sub-3:15 for him), he hired a coach who not only prepared him well, but also ran his target marathon with him, and talked him through his mental struggles late in the race. He ultimately ran a 3:07, a huge PR, and he's convinced he could not have done it without the coach running beside him to talk through the race. I don't know how true that is, but the result speak for itself. Mental hurdles are common to athletes and when we find ways to overcome them, the results can be huge.

Yea, and this was definitely the plan with Mike. A good training cycle, and then someone I knew and trusted that was faster than me. There to provide that mental support to overcome the late stages of the race. But 2018 happened, and thus the plan wasn't executed.

Your future plans following Chicago sound good, especially focusing on shorter distances like the half. I'd only add, if you can, to throw in a marathon or two next year as a non-target race. The endurance training is of course going to be beneficial and being in the marathon environment without the pre-race anxiety of having solid goals might be a good thing mentally. I'm thinking about what you said regarding your heart rate while waiting in the corral at Chicago, and how much lower it was then, versus other target marathons you've run. I've certainly benefited from running marathons and other events with no goal other than finish and have fun. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. Hope your recovery goes well!

That's tough for me to wrap my arms around. The marathon from a physical standpoint takes a huge toll on the body. At this point in my racing, I can't comprehend tackling the distance without a target goal when healthy. Just from the sheer recovery standpoint before training for a target race can resume again. I mean I get that's what I just did - a marathon without a time goal. But for me, that's because I wasn't healthy going into the race.

As for the HR, out of curiosity I looked back at HR right before the race started:

2018 Chicago - 52 bpm
2018 Madison Mini - 84 bpm
2018 Hot2Trot - 104 bpm
2018 Disney Marathon - 46 bpm
2018 Disney HM - 57 bpm
2018 Disney 10k - 62 bpm
2018 Disney 5k - 58 bpm
2017 Milwaukee 10k - 69 bpm
2017 Lakefront Marathon - 90 bpm

The races where I had a set goal (2017 Lake, 2018 Hot2Trot, and 2018 Madison Mini) seem to be clear outliers. But the races where I was just going to take what the race gave me (2018 Disney and 2018 Chicago) I've got a much lower HR.

It's all definitely something to think about as time moves forward and I try to come up with a new post-Chicago game plan.

I heard miles 23/24 are considered the wall. I wonder how everyone trains for the marathon mentally. It sounds like it's almost as tough mentally as it is physically.

The wall can definitely come sooner or not at all. I've had a "wall" like feeling as soon as mile 9. But like this past marathon not experience it until Mile 22.5 Most of the time, the race seems to change for me around mile 19-20. But even in my best negative split race (Lakefront 2015) I was hitting a 5k PR from Mile 19-22. So physically, that wall could come at any time and a lot of it has to do with pacing. Because pacing dictates the rate of fatigue. And pacing dictates the rate of glycogen consumption.

Honestly, if you do the training then the physical aspect is there. But come late in the marathon, the key aspect that'll separate the good day from the great day is the mental aspect. Can you fight through that physical pain that's unlike any training run? Can you stay positive through the several obstacles that will be thrown in your path?

For the mental aspect, I give the following advice:

Stay motivated. Stay positive. Smile.

If you can do those three things, then you've more than won the mental edge battle. It's when you lose motivation, become negative, or lose the smile that things have a tendency to slip away. So to mentally prepare, do these same tricks in training.

For me personally, it's why I went to a blind method of running. I tended to lose motivation, become negative, and stop smiling based on the splits. While the results of the race may not be at peak, it's made my racing situation more pleasant than it was back in the days of meticulously watching the splits. But I'm hardly an expert on mental marathon games since I've had to create a trick to alleviate myself from that problem.

Congrats Billy! Enjoyed reading the recap and it seems it was a weekend full of Disers which is always great. Someday soon I’ll run Chicago.

Thanks! It was a great race and great to see everyone as well. Highly recommend Chicago since it's such an easy trip for us in WI.

The "wall" is much more a function of pace than it is of distance. Plenty of marathoners here and elsewhere have run slow (for them) marathons and never experienced the wall. With good training and proper pacing, it's certainly possible to run a full marathon and stay in your comfort zone the whole time. If you're looking to race a marathon to your full potential, you're going to hit the wall at some point, which is why pacing is so important. Hit the wall too soon and it's probably going to be a rough day.

Absolutely. There's either the glycogen depletion wall or the fatigue wall. But if you pace things appropriately then there's no reason you have to hit either wall.

That makes me feel better. While I know billy’s plans are about feeling good at the finish, I feel a bit bad that I definitely can’t say that. BUT I was not trying to finish I was racing. To be honest if I had felt good at the finish I might have thought I did not push enough. I feel like I did the very best I could that day and left everything out there. I was trying to BQ and wanted as much cushion as possible. I am pretty hopeful I made it, but at least I can say I gave it everything. No regrets.

BTW, just back from my yoga session. It was something I started doing with this training cycle. Once a week yin yoga on Wednesday. It seemed to help. I definitely feel better now.

Yea, I definitely don't want to sell that you'll always feel good after finishing the marathon especially one you race as close to peak performance as possible. Those are going to hurt physically. But it'll be worth it, as it was in this case. For me personally, I know I ran a good race when I see a tiny U-shaped curve in the race. I want to see the tiniest slowdown in pace at the end of the race because then I know I likely truly gave it all. But I don't want to see that U-shape curve start too soon. So for some races it occurs late. But other races much too soon.

You may need to remind me to address this with you next week including my thoughts on briefly running with a pace group during Dark Side. I did that as a test for a possible attempt at the marathon.

I'm in survival mode right now due to a massive work deadline coming on Monday.

Sounds good.

That's the way you should feel at the end of a marathon you race - like you left everything you had out on the road, and you have no regrets about the performance. Hopefully, you feel good about the result, but it's unlikely you're going to feel good about the effort involved! If you gave everything you had, it's going to be uncomfortable. If you look closely at the men's finish in Chicago, 2nd place (Bayih) collapsed just after crossing the line! He was probably absolutely exhausted at that point and had left it all out on the road.

Agreed.
 
I heard miles 23/24 are considered the wall. I wonder how everyone trains for the marathon mentally. It sounds like it's almost as tough mentally as it is physically.

As @BikeFan said, the wall is more a function of pace and fueling rather than any particular mile marker. Many people hit the wall in the 20-24 range because they've either gone out too fast or they haven't fueled properly for the pace they've been running. I think a perfect marathon race is very similar to what @garneska described above. Miles 1-13 should feel very easy. 14-16 you need to start working harder and focusing more. 17-22 is hard and requires full concentration. 23-26 you just hold on for dear life and ignore everything else.
 

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