Colleen27
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2007
Really? Because at least one lawmaker is on video saying it is a great idea, and internal documents in several states that were made public as part of voter access lawsuits talk about it as a strategy.
Do we really need instant election returns? (About voting, not politics.)
- Thread starter NotUrsula
- Start date
Really? Because at least one lawmaker is on video saying it is a great idea, and internal documents in several states that were made public as part of voter access lawsuits talk about it as a strategy.
NotUrsula
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2002
it *is* a recognized strategy and has been for forever, since way before our current major parties became what they are. Technically, there is nothing illegal about merely discouraging voting as long as you don't use violence or the threat of violence to do it (this being where stuff like FB marketing comes in). Dishonest and generally shameful, yes, but not illegal.
However, it is unconstitutional (and thus illegal) when you try to make sure of it by passing laws that effectively disenfranchise citizens who should be able to vote.
It's a broad line, really, one that it is easy to avoid crossing if you want to. In recent years an amazing number of political operatives no longer care. They cross that line with impunity, banking on getting their candidates elected and their agendas enacted before the courts catch up and overturn the unconstitutional restrictions.
However, it is unconstitutional (and thus illegal) when you try to make sure of it by passing laws that effectively disenfranchise citizens who should be able to vote.
It's a broad line, really, one that it is easy to avoid crossing if you want to. In recent years an amazing number of political operatives no longer care. They cross that line with impunity, banking on getting their candidates elected and their agendas enacted before the courts catch up and overturn the unconstitutional restrictions.
bcla
On our rugged Eastern foothills.....
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2012
They seem to have a high amount of overvotes and undervotes in Broward County. That tends to be caught by touch screen voting. From what I've heard about them, some think it's because a lot of the voters didn't see it. They also seem to have some voters just ignore the instructions and (I kid you not) mark votes with an X that may not be read well, or that might even be outside of the circle.
The other thing about Broward County is that it has a lot of retired people. About a quarter of their population is over 65. While they might vote in high proportions, they might have difficulty figuring out layouts and even instructions. In particular, they had the instructions on the left, and the US Senate race as the first race right under the instructions on the left. Apparently that resulted in a lot of undervotes (about 30,000) where there's a good chance that it was skipped over because it wasn't noticed. Most counties in Florida had the instructions on the top. Here's a picture of where the Senate race was in Broward (on the left) and Orange County (on the right):
Florida election law requires a manual recount of ballots that are either over/undervotes if the margin is less than 0.25%. The ballots that are thus are then sorted out, as they wouldn't have been counted as a vote by the equipment. Here's the law:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ng=&URL=0100-0199/0102/Sections/0102.166.html
102.166 Manual recounts of overvotes and undervotes.—
(1) If the second set of unofficial returns pursuant to s. 102.141 indicates that a candidate for any office was defeated or eliminated by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast for such office, that a candidate for retention to a judicial office was retained or not retained by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast on the question of retention, or that a measure appearing on the ballot was approved or rejected by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast on such measure, a manual recount of the overvotes and undervotes cast in the entire geographic jurisdiction of such office or ballot measure shall be ordered unless:
(a) The candidate or candidates defeated or eliminated from contention by one-quarter of 1 percent or fewer of the votes cast for such office request in writing that a recount not be made; or
(b) The number of overvotes and undervotes is fewer than the number of votes needed to change the outcome of the election.
The Secretary of State is responsible for ordering a manual recount for federal, state, and multicounty races. The county canvassing board or local board responsible for certifying the election is responsible for ordering a manual recount for all other races.
(2)(a) Any hardware or software used to identify and sort overvotes and undervotes for a given race or ballot measure must be certified by the Department of State as part of the voting system pursuant to s. 101.015. Any such hardware or software must be capable of simultaneously counting votes.
(b) Overvotes and undervotes shall be identified and sorted while recounting ballots pursuant to s. 102.141, if the hardware or software for this purpose has been certified or the department’s rules so provide.
(3) Any manual recount shall be open to the public.
(4)(a) A vote for a candidate or ballot measure shall be counted if there is a clear indication on the ballot that the voter has made a definite choice.
(b) The Department of State shall adopt specific rules for the federal write-in absentee ballot and for each certified voting system prescribing what constitutes a “clear indication on the ballot that the voter has made a definite choice.” The rules shall be consistent, to the extent practicable, and may not:
1. Exclusively provide that the voter must properly mark or designate his or her choice on the ballot; or
2. Contain a catch-all provision that fails to identify specific standards, such as “any other mark or indication clearly indicating that the voter has made a definite choice.”
(c) The rule for the federal write-in absentee ballot must address, at a minimum, the following issues:
1. The appropriate lines or spaces for designating a candidate choice and, for state and local races, the office or ballot measure to be voted, including the proximity of each to the other and the effect of intervening blank lines.
2. The sufficiency of designating a candidate’s first or last name when no other candidate in the race has the same or a similar name.
3. The sufficiency of designating a candidate’s first or last name when an opposing candidate has the same or a similar name, notwithstanding generational suffixes and titles such as “Jr.,” “Sr.,” or “III.” The rule should contemplate the sufficiency of additional first names and first initials, middle names and middle initials, generational suffixes and titles, nicknames, and, in general elections, the name or abbreviation of a political party.
4. Candidate designations containing both a qualified candidate’s name and a political party, including those in which the party designated is the candidate’s party, is not the candidate’s party, has an opposing candidate in the race, or does not have an opposing candidate in the race.
5. Situations where the abbreviation or name of a candidate is the same as the abbreviation or name of a political party to which the candidate does not belong, including those in which the party designated has another candidate in the race or does not have a candidate in the race.
6. The use of marks, symbols, or language, such as arrows, quotation marks, or the word “same” or “ditto,” to indicate that the same political party designation applies to all listed offices or the elector’s approval or disapproval of all listed ballot measures.
7. Situations in which an elector designates the name of a qualified candidate for an incorrect office.
8. Situations in which an elector designates an otherwise correct office name that includes an incorrect district number.
(5) Procedures for a manual recount are as follows:
(a) The county canvassing board shall appoint as many counting teams of at least two electors as is necessary to manually recount the ballots. A counting team must have, when possible, members of at least two political parties. A candidate involved in the race shall not be a member of the counting team.
(b) Each duplicate ballot prepared pursuant to s. 101.5614(4) or s. 102.141(7) shall be compared with the original ballot to ensure the correctness of the duplicate.
(c) If a counting team is unable to determine whether the ballot contains a clear indication that the voter has made a definite choice, the ballot shall be presented to the county canvassing board for a determination.
(d) The Department of State shall adopt detailed rules prescribing additional recount procedures for each certified voting system which shall be uniform to the extent practicable. The rules shall address, at a minimum, the following areas:
1. Security of ballots during the recount process;
2. Time and place of recounts;
3. Public observance of recounts;
4. Objections to ballot determinations;
5. Record of recount proceedings; and
6. Procedures relating to candidate and petitioner representatives.
102.166 Manual recounts of overvotes and undervotes.—
(1) If the second set of unofficial returns pursuant to s. 102.141 indicates that a candidate for any office was defeated or eliminated by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast for such office, that a candidate for retention to a judicial office was retained or not retained by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast on the question of retention, or that a measure appearing on the ballot was approved or rejected by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast on such measure, a manual recount of the overvotes and undervotes cast in the entire geographic jurisdiction of such office or ballot measure shall be ordered unless:
(a) The candidate or candidates defeated or eliminated from contention by one-quarter of 1 percent or fewer of the votes cast for such office request in writing that a recount not be made; or
(b) The number of overvotes and undervotes is fewer than the number of votes needed to change the outcome of the election.
The Secretary of State is responsible for ordering a manual recount for federal, state, and multicounty races. The county canvassing board or local board responsible for certifying the election is responsible for ordering a manual recount for all other races.
(2)(a) Any hardware or software used to identify and sort overvotes and undervotes for a given race or ballot measure must be certified by the Department of State as part of the voting system pursuant to s. 101.015. Any such hardware or software must be capable of simultaneously counting votes.
(b) Overvotes and undervotes shall be identified and sorted while recounting ballots pursuant to s. 102.141, if the hardware or software for this purpose has been certified or the department’s rules so provide.
(3) Any manual recount shall be open to the public.
(4)(a) A vote for a candidate or ballot measure shall be counted if there is a clear indication on the ballot that the voter has made a definite choice.
(b) The Department of State shall adopt specific rules for the federal write-in absentee ballot and for each certified voting system prescribing what constitutes a “clear indication on the ballot that the voter has made a definite choice.” The rules shall be consistent, to the extent practicable, and may not:
1. Exclusively provide that the voter must properly mark or designate his or her choice on the ballot; or
2. Contain a catch-all provision that fails to identify specific standards, such as “any other mark or indication clearly indicating that the voter has made a definite choice.”
(c) The rule for the federal write-in absentee ballot must address, at a minimum, the following issues:
1. The appropriate lines or spaces for designating a candidate choice and, for state and local races, the office or ballot measure to be voted, including the proximity of each to the other and the effect of intervening blank lines.
2. The sufficiency of designating a candidate’s first or last name when no other candidate in the race has the same or a similar name.
3. The sufficiency of designating a candidate’s first or last name when an opposing candidate has the same or a similar name, notwithstanding generational suffixes and titles such as “Jr.,” “Sr.,” or “III.” The rule should contemplate the sufficiency of additional first names and first initials, middle names and middle initials, generational suffixes and titles, nicknames, and, in general elections, the name or abbreviation of a political party.
4. Candidate designations containing both a qualified candidate’s name and a political party, including those in which the party designated is the candidate’s party, is not the candidate’s party, has an opposing candidate in the race, or does not have an opposing candidate in the race.
5. Situations where the abbreviation or name of a candidate is the same as the abbreviation or name of a political party to which the candidate does not belong, including those in which the party designated has another candidate in the race or does not have a candidate in the race.
6. The use of marks, symbols, or language, such as arrows, quotation marks, or the word “same” or “ditto,” to indicate that the same political party designation applies to all listed offices or the elector’s approval or disapproval of all listed ballot measures.
7. Situations in which an elector designates the name of a qualified candidate for an incorrect office.
8. Situations in which an elector designates an otherwise correct office name that includes an incorrect district number.
(5) Procedures for a manual recount are as follows:
(a) The county canvassing board shall appoint as many counting teams of at least two electors as is necessary to manually recount the ballots. A counting team must have, when possible, members of at least two political parties. A candidate involved in the race shall not be a member of the counting team.
(b) Each duplicate ballot prepared pursuant to s. 101.5614(4) or s. 102.141(7) shall be compared with the original ballot to ensure the correctness of the duplicate.
(c) If a counting team is unable to determine whether the ballot contains a clear indication that the voter has made a definite choice, the ballot shall be presented to the county canvassing board for a determination.
(d) The Department of State shall adopt detailed rules prescribing additional recount procedures for each certified voting system which shall be uniform to the extent practicable. The rules shall address, at a minimum, the following areas:
1. Security of ballots during the recount process;
2. Time and place of recounts;
3. Public observance of recounts;
4. Objections to ballot determinations;
5. Record of recount proceedings; and
6. Procedures relating to candidate and petitioner representatives.
rickybobby
Please bring back Tapestry of Nations
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
They seem to have a high amount of overvotes and undervotes in Broward County. That tends to be caught by touch screen voting. From what I've heard about them, some think it's because a lot of the voters didn't see it. They also seem to have some voters just ignore the instructions and (I kid you not) mark votes with an X that may not be read well, or that might even be outside of the circle.
The other thing about Broward County is that it has a lot of retired people. About a quarter of their population is over 65. While they might vote in high proportions, they might have difficulty figuring out layouts and even instructions. In particular, they had the instructions on the left, and the US Senate race as the first race right under the instructions on the left. Apparently that resulted in a lot of undervotes (about 30,000) where there's a good chance that it was skipped over because it wasn't noticed. Most counties in Florida had the instructions on the top. Here's a picture of where the Senate race was in Broward (on the left) and Orange County (on the right):
Florida election law requires a manual recount of ballots that are either over/undervotes if the margin is less than 0.25%. The ballots that are thus are then sorted out, as they wouldn't have been counted as a vote by the equipment. Here's the law:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ng=&URL=0100-0199/0102/Sections/0102.166.html
102.166 Manual recounts of overvotes and undervotes.—
(1) If the second set of unofficial returns pursuant to s. 102.141 indicates that a candidate for any office was defeated or eliminated by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast for such office, that a candidate for retention to a judicial office was retained or not retained by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast on the question of retention, or that a measure appearing on the ballot was approved or rejected by one-quarter of a percent or less of the votes cast on such measure, a manual recount of the overvotes and undervotes cast in the entire geographic jurisdiction of such office or ballot measure shall be ordered unless:
(a) The candidate or candidates defeated or eliminated from contention by one-quarter of 1 percent or fewer of the votes cast for such office request in writing that a recount not be made; or
(b) The number of overvotes and undervotes is fewer than the number of votes needed to change the outcome of the election.
The Secretary of State is responsible for ordering a manual recount for federal, state, and multicounty races. The county canvassing board or local board responsible for certifying the election is responsible for ordering a manual recount for all other races.
(2)(a) Any hardware or software used to identify and sort overvotes and undervotes for a given race or ballot measure must be certified by the Department of State as part of the voting system pursuant to s. 101.015. Any such hardware or software must be capable of simultaneously counting votes.
(b) Overvotes and undervotes shall be identified and sorted while recounting ballots pursuant to s. 102.141, if the hardware or software for this purpose has been certified or the department’s rules so provide.
(3) Any manual recount shall be open to the public.
(4)(a) A vote for a candidate or ballot measure shall be counted if there is a clear indication on the ballot that the voter has made a definite choice.
(b) The Department of State shall adopt specific rules for the federal write-in absentee ballot and for each certified voting system prescribing what constitutes a “clear indication on the ballot that the voter has made a definite choice.” The rules shall be consistent, to the extent practicable, and may not:
1. Exclusively provide that the voter must properly mark or designate his or her choice on the ballot; or
2. Contain a catch-all provision that fails to identify specific standards, such as “any other mark or indication clearly indicating that the voter has made a definite choice.”
(c) The rule for the federal write-in absentee ballot must address, at a minimum, the following issues:
1. The appropriate lines or spaces for designating a candidate choice and, for state and local races, the office or ballot measure to be voted, including the proximity of each to the other and the effect of intervening blank lines.
2. The sufficiency of designating a candidate’s first or last name when no other candidate in the race has the same or a similar name.
3. The sufficiency of designating a candidate’s first or last name when an opposing candidate has the same or a similar name, notwithstanding generational suffixes and titles such as “Jr.,” “Sr.,” or “III.” The rule should contemplate the sufficiency of additional first names and first initials, middle names and middle initials, generational suffixes and titles, nicknames, and, in general elections, the name or abbreviation of a political party.
4. Candidate designations containing both a qualified candidate’s name and a political party, including those in which the party designated is the candidate’s party, is not the candidate’s party, has an opposing candidate in the race, or does not have an opposing candidate in the race.
5. Situations where the abbreviation or name of a candidate is the same as the abbreviation or name of a political party to which the candidate does not belong, including those in which the party designated has another candidate in the race or does not have a candidate in the race.
6. The use of marks, symbols, or language, such as arrows, quotation marks, or the word “same” or “ditto,” to indicate that the same political party designation applies to all listed offices or the elector’s approval or disapproval of all listed ballot measures.
7. Situations in which an elector designates the name of a qualified candidate for an incorrect office.
8. Situations in which an elector designates an otherwise correct office name that includes an incorrect district number.
(5) Procedures for a manual recount are as follows:
(a) The county canvassing board shall appoint as many counting teams of at least two electors as is necessary to manually recount the ballots. A counting team must have, when possible, members of at least two political parties. A candidate involved in the race shall not be a member of the counting team.
(b) Each duplicate ballot prepared pursuant to s. 101.5614(4) or s. 102.141(7) shall be compared with the original ballot to ensure the correctness of the duplicate.
(c) If a counting team is unable to determine whether the ballot contains a clear indication that the voter has made a definite choice, the ballot shall be presented to the county canvassing board for a determination.
(d) The Department of State shall adopt detailed rules prescribing additional recount procedures for each certified voting system which shall be uniform to the extent practicable. The rules shall address, at a minimum, the following areas:
1. Security of ballots during the recount process;
2. Time and place of recounts;
3. Public observance of recounts;
4. Objections to ballot determinations;
5. Record of recount proceedings; and
6. Procedures relating to candidate and petitioner representatives.
rickybobby
Please bring back Tapestry of Nations
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
Could it also be possible that many of the voters were highly motivated by the prospect of a black Governor and voted for that reason, who otherwise may not have been likely to vote? They might then leave the other race blank, cause they don't care.
I know in my local election, I left many of the amendments blank, because I didn't know for sure what they were for.
I know in my local election, I left many of the amendments blank, because I didn't know for sure what they were for.
Floridaman999
Livin' the life
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2017
The lines are blurry for some people.
Boardwalk Jedi
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2016
Love the assumptions on why "they" vote. Shouldn't be surprised coming from you though.
handinpocket
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
Plenty of people in the state were INTERVIEWED and stated they were voting for her because they wanted her to be the first black, female governor. Clearly you are just looking to be offended.
Boardwalk Jedi
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2016
So they're new to voting because of that and don't care about other races? Please.
rickybobby
Please bring back Tapestry of Nations
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
Word police in action. Using the word they is considered racist. Geesh!
Boardwalk Jedi
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2016
Coming from you, everything likely is.
bcla
On our rugged Eastern foothills.....
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2012
You’re right that it makes no sense from a voter’s standpoint. Broward County had the highest proportion of undervotes for that particular Senate race relative to who voted for Governor. I read it was about 3.7%. Miami-Dade had almost no undervote. There a graphic in this article that shows the difference.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/upshot/florida-senate-race-broward-undercount.html
Attachments
tvguy
Question anything the facts don't support.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2003
Well, not sure the people in charge of voting are the ones voting for two candidates in the same race, which seems to be the issue.
tarheelmjfan
Proud Redhead
- Joined
- May 10, 2001
I think you have your states confused, unless we're no longer talking about Florida.
rickybobby
Please bring back Tapestry of Nations
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
Double voting was minimal. Most of the problems were: votes were not counted in the assigned time in either the election or the recount. Updates were not given as required. The number of votes still outstanding were not given as required. Neutral observers were not allowed in to oversee the after hours counting until forced to do so by authorities.
Wishing on a star
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
Wow, and this is not just incredibly 'racist'....
If a black candidate does not win, then it is because of 'racism'...
But, if a person clearly votes for a candidate, solely based on the color of the candidates skin, then that is okay, and not 'racist'.
The assumption being that all black african/american people are motivated to vote for a person based solely on race is okay... but if there is any tiny possibility of that from a white person, then it is clearly rampant racism...
Even though SO many votors voted FOR Obama....
Okayyyyy....
Last edited:
rickybobby
Please bring back Tapestry of Nations
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
I received multiple text messages that were obviously meant for the previous owner of my phone listing from political action groups that encouraged me to vote for the first black governor. Nothing on policy, just vote to have the first black governor.
rickybobby
Please bring back Tapestry of Nations
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
If you can't debate your point, fall back on calling names.
Wishing on a star
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
Ummmmm, not surprising, at all..... Expected, in fact...
Which is obviously my biggest point.
Clear and obvious promotion of RACISM.
To promote racism on one side, and then scream and yell and accuse of racism on the other... both in the very same breath...
Yep... Okay then.....
Which is obviously my biggest point.
Clear and obvious promotion of RACISM.
To promote racism on one side, and then scream and yell and accuse of racism on the other... both in the very same breath...
Yep... Okay then.....
rickybobby
Please bring back Tapestry of Nations
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
(sorry, wrong quote replied to)
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