Immanuel Kant and wearing masks in public.

you're stuck with 99 other people. One of you has Coronavirus and doesn't know it. Masks...

  • ... should be warn by everyone.

  • ... should be warn by most people.

  • ... should be warn only by those comfortable wearing one.

  • ... it doesn't matter because masks don't do anything at all.

  • ... it doesn't matter because the virus is going to get everyone eventually anyway.

  • ... should be warn by everyone but me.


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Good for you Doc! I am going to continue heeding the advice of the WHO, the CDC and my own personal Doctor. Also, I can't account for an idiot that thinks a crocheted mask counts!

I don't believe I've told anybody to shut up - just to prove their claims. A discussion is being had.
You know what they call the person that comes in last in their class in medical school? :jumping1:
What exactly are you trying to infer with your last question or is it a lame attempt at humor by discounting the opinion of a person who completed their medical training and are licensed to practice? And which advice from the CDC as that has been a fluid place to look.
We also know the WHO is influenced by non medical forces. The head is not even a medical doctor. Believe what you want, just allow others to make informed decisions for themselves as well.

And again with the name calling the lady was not an “idiot” she was just poorly informed, trying to do what she thought was right. I didn’t tell the story to ridicule her it was to illustrate a point that because we are “doing something” doesn’t mean we really are doing something.

You may not have said shut up but your I believe science statement was an attempt to silence another point of view. I merely pointed out that science is not decided by a majority, but by research and questioning.
 
What exactly are you trying to infer with your last question or is it a lame attempt at humor by discounting the opinion of a person who completed their medical training and are licensed to practice? And which advice from the CDC as that has been a fluid place to look.
We also know the WHO is influenced by non medical forces. The head is not even a medical doctor. Believe what you want, just allow others to make informed decisions for themselves as well.

And again with the name calling the lady was not an “idiot” she was just poorly informed, trying to do what she thought was right. I didn’t tell the story to ridicule her it was to illustrate a point that because we are “doing something” doesn’t mean we really are doing something.

You may not have said shut up but your I believe science statement was an attempt to silence another point of view. I merely pointed out that science is not decided by a majority, but by research and questioning.

Yup - just a joke. They've all heard it so it's kind of kitschy.

Can you explain why you think the CDC is "fluid"?
 
From the same site's Q&A:

"Wearing a medical mask (I assume they mean a N95 ?) can limit the spread of certain respiratory viral diseases, including COVID-19. However, the use of a mask alone is not sufficient to provide an adequate level of protection. Other measures such as physical distancing and hand hygiene should be adopted. At present WHO recommends a risk-based approach to be considered by decision makers when deciding in which settings and circumstances non-medical masks could be used in the community."

Masks and social distancing are all we have right now to protect each other from this virus. I understand that many of you don't feel at risk, but you just may pass it along to those of us who are. I will always wear a mask when in public, as I do not want to ever take the chance of passing the virus to someone else. How some of you are perfectly comfortable with taking that risk because wearing a mask may be uncomfortable for you is mind boggling.
So the statement from the site
If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19.
Means nothing?

In fact, the way I read the section you quoted is that cloth masks do NOT help limit the spread. If they did, why did they specify "medical masks" as CAN help?

I do agree wearing masks "help", in the sense that make other people FEEL better, not that they necessarily help stop the spread. The section you quoted says even if you wear a mask, you should maintain physical distancing and use hand hygiene. So how much does wearing masks actually help?

Also in the Q&A section:
Non-medical or cloth masks could increase potential for COVID-19 to infect a person if the mask is contaminated by dirty hands and touched often, or kept on other parts of the face or head and then placed back over the mouth and nose
Bolding mine.

At least they admit cloth masks MAY protect others
The evidence about the benefits of these masks is limited. One good quality study showed that the risk of respiratory infection is increased (and not reduced) in health care workers using cotton cloth masks when compared to medical masks. Cloth masks are currently being recommended by some countries as a means of source control in the general population. Although their protective effectiveness to the wearer is unknown, they may protect others if the wearer is a pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic carrier.
Note, they don't definitively protect others.

So when you said you follow the advice of WHO (along with CDC and your doctor), did you mean it? ;)
 
What exactly are you trying to infer with your last question or is it a lame attempt at humor by discounting the opinion of a person who completed their medical training and are licensed to practice? And which advice from the CDC as that has been a fluid place to look.
We also know the WHO is influenced by non medical forces. The head is not even a medical doctor. Believe what you want, just allow others to make informed decisions for themselves as well.

And again with the name calling the lady was not an “idiot” she was just poorly informed, trying to do what she thought was right. I didn’t tell the story to ridicule her it was to illustrate a point that because we are “doing something” doesn’t mean we really are doing something.

You may not have said shut up but your I believe science statement was an attempt to silence another point of view. I merely pointed out that science is not decided by a majority, but by research and questioning.
May Someone with supernatural powers lend strength and patience to anyone without a mask who meets a bearer of this belief set in a public place.
 
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So the statement from the site Means nothing?

In fact, the way I read the section you quoted is that cloth masks do NOT help limit the spread. If they did, why did they specify "medical masks" as CAN help?

I do agree wearing masks "help", in the sense that make other people FEEL better, not that they necessarily help stop the spread. The section you quoted says even if you wear a mask, you should maintain physical distancing and use hand hygiene. So how much does wearing masks actually help?

Also in the Q&A section:
Bolding mine.

At least they admit cloth masks MAY protect others Note, they don't definitively protect others.

So when you said you follow the advice of WHO (along with CDC and your doctor), did you mean it? ;)

Nope - I admit I mistakenly said the WHO and the CDC...it was THE CLEVELAND CLINIC and the CDC , as referenced in my previous post.

But yes, the WHO did recommend medical masks.

Please read the second part of #139 if you really want to know how I feel about mask wearing.
 
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May the Almighty himself lend strength and patience to anyone without a mask who meets a bearer of this belief set in a public place.


Yeah I have no idea what this means as religious references are not allowed here on the Dis.
 


Thank you and rephrased in a 100% secular manner.


Still sounds as dumb - Lol!!

Hey - you never answered my question as to why you feel comfortable questioning people in the medical field on a medical matter... do you have superior knowledge?
 
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Still sounds as dumb - Lol!!

Hey - you never answered my question as to why you feel comfortable questioning people in the medical field on a medical matter... do you have superior knowledge?

Isn't that the whole point of science to question everything? The thought of a virus piggybacking onto air pollution is very interesting.
 
Isn't that the whole point of science to question everything? The thought of a virus piggybacking onto air pollution is very interesting.

Of course it is, and yes, of course it is!! My question is: what is the basis for inquiry - is it to further science, or to disparage science?
 
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Just read the article from Fox News about the latest WHO statement - Healthy people should only wear masks when taking care of coronavirus patients. Is this something we should believe since this comes from a credible source mentioned in some of these posts?

There are so many opinions even within the medical community. There are also not definitive studies or even agreement within the medical community which is why the shaming and calling people selfish and murderers needs to stop.
 
Just read the article from Fox News about the latest WHO statement - Healthy people should only wear masks when taking care of coronavirus patients. Is this something we should believe since this comes from a credible source mentioned in some of these posts?

There are so many opinions even within the medical community. There are also not definitive studies or even agreement within the medical community which is why the shaming and calling people selfish and murderers needs to stop.

If there is a chance you may be saving someone else from contracting the virus would you, or would you not wear a mask? Possibly save a life vs. your comfort...where do you stand?
 
I was shocked to see the paucity of research conducted concerning aerosol transmission of viruses when I started looking so looked at some first principles relevant to this.

Interesting that small droplets (enough to contain thousand of viruses say) evaporate in less than a second at low relative humidity. I looked at settling rate of virus sized particles and they would be expected to stay airborne for on the order of hours. I looked at SARS research from Singapore that found the SARS virus viable for extended periods in a dehydrated state at reasonable temp and humidity conditions. My conclusion was that it is likely Coronaviruses transport in aerosols in a dehydrated state at conditions typical of air conditioned spaces over extended distances.

Wuhan and Lombardy region of Italy both suffer from high air pollution of very small particulates and it seemed viral particles could be associated with these smaller particles. There was then a later study in Italy which showed this same phenomena. These are medical people and I don’t think they fully realize yet how quickly micron sized drops evaporate and so they still think in terms of droplets on these small particulates instead of dry virus but I believe further research will show dry infective virus transport associated with very small particulates from atmospheric pollution.

I think the bigger issue is that poor air quality impairs the lungs in the first place, making people more vulnerable to the virus.
The Italy study detected RNA or one specific gene on the samples from air filter collection. The Singapore hospital study also used RT-PCR detection on surface and air samples. That doesn't tell you anything about the amount or the infectivity, which is the problem with PCR detection methods for this type of study. The Singapore study cites another study where there was an attempt to infect cells from air samples but that "study indicates that SARS-CoV could exist in the air where SARS patients live, but the infectivity of SARS-CoV in air samples is very weak." So bottom line, it is still poorly understood. That said, masks help mitigate the primary mode of transmission which we know to be droplet spread. Aerosol transmission is a much larger issue for healthcare workers who hook sick people up to the machines that generate aerosols. Aerosols generated by acts such as talking or singing (like in the choir transmission, and the "no screaming" request on thrill rides discussed in another thread) need more investigation. Viral loads and likelihood of transmission need to be better understood in this area.
 
If there is a chance you may be saving someone else from contracting the virus would you, or would you not wear a mask? Possibly save a life vs. your comfort...where do you stand?

I DO wear the mask when I am indoors in public, I want others to feel comfortable. I DO NOT think I am less infectious with the mask on, actually the opposite for reasons I stated in an earlier post. I wear it because I'm an inherently nice person that is a rule follower, I do not think I am saving a life by doing so.
 
I DO wear the mask when I am indoors in public, I want others to feel comfortable. I DO NOT think I am less infectious with the mask on, actually the opposite for reasons I stated in an earlier post. I wear it because I'm an inherently nice person that is a rule follower, I do not think I am saving a life by doing so.

Good enough! So you don't think the mask retains any of your "droplets", for lack of a better term?
 
Good enough! So you don't think the mask retains any of your "droplets", for lack of a better term?

I do think there can be droplets on the mask. That is why I feel that it is less sanitary. I sometimes need a breath, I start feeling faint and pull the mask away from my nose for a second, possibly touching the droplets. I am a 53 year old woman in menopause in TX, when I have on the mask I sweat. The mask makes my face sweat, particularly my upper lip, which goes into and through the droplets and I will wipe before it drips on things or people. Sweat drips down the sides of my face and through the mask and over the droplets. My glasses fog up and I literally can't see - are the droplets on the fog since it came from my mouth? I have to wipe them off and touch or come close to the fog/droplets.

I have two types of masks - N95 from my husband and homemade cloth mask. Both have popped off my ear or, in the case of the N95, snapped an elastic when I bent over and snagged it on my purse. I had to touch them and readjust, touching the droplets.

When I don't wear the mask I am very good about not touching my face (from 15 yrs. of teaching). I don't cough or sneeze in public, if I have bad allergies that day or hypothetically don't feel well I won't go into a public place. I don't talk to people I don't know in public, usually the only thing I say is thank you to the cashier from behind the plastic wall. I feel I spread less droplets without the mask.
 
I do think there can be droplets on the mask. That is why I feel that it is less sanitary. I sometimes need a breath, I start feeling faint and pull the mask away from my nose for a second, possibly touching the droplets. I am a 53 year old woman in menopause in TX, when I have on the mask I sweat. The mask makes my face sweat, particularly my upper lip, which goes into and through the droplets and I will wipe before it drips on things or people. Sweat drips down the sides of my face and through the mask and over the droplets. My glasses fog up and I literally can't see - are the droplets on the fog since it came from my mouth? I have to wipe them off and touch or come close to the fog/droplets.

I have two types of masks - N95 from my husband and homemade cloth mask. Both have popped off my ear or, in the case of the N95, snapped an elastic when I bent over and snagged it on my purse. I had to touch them and readjust, touching the droplets.

When I don't wear the mask I am very good about not touching my face (from 15 yrs. of teaching). I don't cough or sneeze in public, if I have bad allergies that day or hypothetically don't feel well I won't go into a public place. I don't talk to people I don't know in public, usually the only thing I say is thank you to the cashier from behind the plastic wall. I feel I spread less droplets without the mask.


That all makes good sense. Thank you for responding!
 
I do think there can be droplets on the mask. That is why I feel that it is less sanitary. I sometimes need a breath, I start feeling faint and pull the mask away from my nose for a second, possibly touching the droplets. I am a 53 year old woman in menopause in TX, when I have on the mask I sweat. The mask makes my face sweat, particularly my upper lip, which goes into and through the droplets and I will wipe before it drips on things or people. Sweat drips down the sides of my face and through the mask and over the droplets. My glasses fog up and I literally can't see - are the droplets on the fog since it came from my mouth? I have to wipe them off and touch or come close to the fog/droplets.

I have two types of masks - N95 from my husband and homemade cloth mask. Both have popped off my ear or, in the case of the N95, snapped an elastic when I bent over and snagged it on my purse. I had to touch them and readjust, touching the droplets.

When I don't wear the mask I am very good about not touching my face (from 15 yrs. of teaching). I don't cough or sneeze in public, if I have bad allergies that day or hypothetically don't feel well I won't go into a public place. I don't talk to people I don't know in public, usually the only thing I say is thank you to the cashier from behind the plastic wall. I feel I spread less droplets without the mask.

People definitely should not be touching the outside of the mask. Instead of pulling it away on the face you should be adjusting it by handling the straps only. You already have the sense that you shouldn't be touching it, so it's just a matter of training yourself.

The sweating part is another conundrum altogether, since we know a wet mask is likely an ineffective mask. Unfortunately there are no easy answers to that as we approach a summer where mask wearing will probably be expected in many places. It's the reason why I'm critical about places like WDW reopening in the dead of summer with these mandates as it actually does little to nothing for actual public safety and only has the appearance of risk reduction.
 
People definitely should not be touching the outside of the mask. Instead of pulling it away on the face you should be adjusting it by handling the straps only. You already have the sense that you shouldn't be touching it, so it's just a matter of training yourself.

The sweating part is another conundrum altogether, since we know a wet mask is likely an ineffective mask. Unfortunately there are no easy answers to that as we approach a summer where mask wearing will probably be expected in many places. It's the reason why I'm critical about places like WDW reopening in the dead of summer with these mandates as it actually does little to nothing for actual public safety and only has the appearance of risk reduction.


Thank you.
 
Just read the article from Fox News about the latest WHO statement - Healthy people should only wear masks when taking care of coronavirus patients. Is this something we should believe since this comes from a credible source mentioned in some of these posts?

There are so many opinions even within the medical community. There are also not definitive studies or even agreement within the medical community which is why the shaming and calling people selfish and murderers needs to stop.

The WHO is referring to medical grade masks, which are needed for caregivers. I'm sure your source didn't specify that.

Even if we stretch it out and assume that they are referring to ALL masks, they referenced healthy people. This bug can have up to a two week incubation period. You don't know if you're healthy or if you're in the incubation period. You might even be an asymptomatic carrier.

(My autocorrect keeps wanting to correct the WHO to The Who. I don't really think the board cares about Pete Townsend's opinion).
 

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