"Dress Coded"

Colleen27 · May 11, 2019

luvsJack said:
No, not really. They learned how to wear the same thing everyone else was wearing.

Exactly. I don't buy the "learn to dress professionally" argument. Where in the world are jeans or jean shorts or t-shirts professional? I suppose the argument could be made that uniform policies somewhat reflect workplace policies, but regular school dress codes? Not so much.

Sparkly said:
She wouldn't last a second in my old secondary school, we had uniforms that were the opposite of fashionable- think knee length, no shorter pleated skirts, horrible blouses, cardigans. No taking off your cardigan unless the head master decided it was "hot weather rules." No trousers for girls either, just skirts. Only time we got to wear shorts were horrible polyester striped ones for PE. Somehow, I survived. Oh yeah, did I mention that we had brown and yellow as our school colours?

What's stopping your daughter from buying boys shorts, then? Problem solved. They're just shorts.

So because you survived being uncomfortable and not dressed appropriately for the weather, everyone else should too? When I was a kid, the local Catholic schools never allowed girls to wear pants, regardless of weather, and most just stayed in at recess when the snow started falling. I, for one, am GLAD that blatantly sexist dress code that encouraged girls to sit quietly indoors while boys engaged in active play has gone the way of the dinosaur and I would not defend a school imposing those same rules today just because I and my peers survived them.

As far as buying boys shorts, that only really works for girls until puberty. Once they reach a certain point, generally in middle school, the waist-to-hip ratio just doesn't work for girls who have started to develop. And ill-fitting clothes aren't exactly comfortable or attractive/tidy-looking on anyone.

CarolAnn856 · May 12, 2019

Colleen27 said:
So because you survived being uncomfortable and not dressed appropriately for the weather, everyone else should too?

I wish I could find the article, but I read an excellent piece once identifying two kinds of people. When people see others struggling through some kind of unfairness they went through themselves, some look to make the path better for others, while some want to see others suffer the same way they did. I know what kind of person I strive to be.

sam_gordon · May 12, 2019

OK, here's our dress code... it applies to all middle school students (not elementary or HS):

ALL CLOTHING

Must be in good condition with no tears, cuts, or holes.

Must be appropriate and show no visible undergarments.

All students must remain in dress code until they exit the building, get on the bus, or are at an extracurricular activity, etc.

PANTS

Full length, non-denim, cotton/twill pants. Cargo pants are NOT permitted. Girls may wear skirts that cover the knee when standing. NO leggings, jeggings, joggers, or any knit pants. Pants/skirts must be tan OR brown.

Pants must be worn at waist

Shorts are not permitted (athletic classes and wellness classes are exceptions.)

Belts MUST be worn. (Exception to this policy: pants or shirts that have elastic in the waistband or have belt loops.)

SHIRTS

Polo/button shirt with collar must be worn. Shirts can have no logos other than school sponsored logos. T-shirts or shirts with logos must be approved <MS>or <HS> shirts (i.e., no custom monogramed shirts).

Approved school sponsored t-shirts or sweatshirts (non- hooded) may be worn on any day.

Shirts must be tucked in all day.

Sweatshirts or sweaters (non-hooded, non-logo) with a waistband may be worn without being tucked in all day. (Shirt as described above must be worn underneath.)

No garments considered undergarments shall be visible (t-shirts at the neckline are acceptable.)

Jackets/coats and other outerwear must be stored in locker during the school day.

ACCESSORIES and BACKPACKS

These items are not permissible: hats, sunglasses, bandanas, scarves, and chains/objects attached to or a part of student clothing.

All purses should be smaller than a three-ring notebook.

All backpacks (includes cinch sacks) are to be stored in lockers during the school day (space will be designated for sports bag/equipment.

JEANS DAY

Students must continue to follow the dress code, the only exceptions are on school approved dress-down days students may wear full length jeans and any school appropriate shirt.

No jeans with holes and no shorts are permitted.

Principal has discretion to make exceptions when necessary.

So, with the exception of saying "Girls may wear skirts that cover the knee", it seems pretty even male/female. There is nothing that says why there's a dress code. I've now had three kids go through this school. They all hated the dress code. I agree some of the rules seem silly (I've had to take a belt to oldest DD because she'd keep forgetting hers). But they're all pretty simple to follow. And yes, it usually is pretty hot when school starts back up in the fall. Too bad, no shorts.

As long as the dress codes are applied to boys and girls equally, I don't have a problem with them.

I do think it's funny... some on this thread hint (or flat out say) that their child shouldn't be uncomfortable, but if someone else is made uncomfortable by what others are wearing, "it's their problem". And it doesn't have to be anything with exposed skin... find a shirt with a NSFW image or wording on it... should kids be allowed to wear that?

As a former teenage boy, I'll admit there were times I was distracted by what the girls were wearing (and it wasn't always about what skin was showing).

Sparkly · May 12, 2019

CarolAnn856 said:
I wish I could find the article, but I read an excellent piece once identifying two kinds of people. When people see others struggling through some kind of unfairness they went through themselves, some look to make the path better for others, while some want to see others suffer the same way they did. I know what kind of person I strive to be.

In our case, it was hardly unfairness or "suffering". That's just a rule we had to follow, same as your dress codes. No need to get sanctimonious with me.

wgeo · May 12, 2019

Sparkly said:
She wouldn't last a second in my old secondary school, we had uniforms that were the opposite of fashionable- think knee length, no shorter pleated skirts, horrible blouses, cardigans. No taking off your cardigan unless the head master decided it was "hot weather rules." No trousers for girls either, just skirts. Only time we got to wear shorts were horrible polyester striped ones for PE. Somehow, I survived. Oh yeah, did I mention that we had brown and yellow as our school colours?

What's stopping your daughter from buying boys shorts, then? Problem solved. They're just shorts.

What's stopping my daughter from wearing boys shorts? Probably the negative attention she would get from every single one of her friends? Kids at 13 years old are very attuned to fitting in and not standing out. We can debate about wether that is good or bad, but asking girls to wear boys clothes just so they can be comfortable in the weather is not an acceptable solution.

sam_gordon · May 12, 2019

wgeo said:
Kids at 13 years old are very attuned to fitting in and not standing out.

That's another pro for a dress code. If everyone matches, then no one stands out.

design_mom · May 12, 2019

sam_gordon said:
That's another pro for a dress code. If everyone matches, then no one stands out.

Eh... I hear that one a lot, and I'm not sure it works out as well as planned. I wore a uniform (not just a dress code) in grades 1-12. Yes. We were all wearing the same ugly jumper or the same color pants, but the "fitting in" just changed. Just thinking of high school, it wasn't about what clothes you were wearing... it was about what shoes you wore, or what purse you had, or whether you had real diamond earrings, or what car you had (or thought you'd get for your 16th birthday. My answer: no car.)

wgeo · May 12, 2019

sam_gordon said:
That's another pro for a dress code. If everyone matches, then no one stands out.

There are an incredible number of ways that kids find to stand out even when they have a dress code. This is one of the most misguided reasons for a dress code in my opinion. About half of the public schools in our area have a dress code and the ways that I have seen kids "get around" the dress code to show off their wealth is incredible. It is still very obvious which kids have more money and which kids don't.

Wishing on a star · May 12, 2019

Of course dress codes can be sexist!!!!

But, in this case, we don't really know that.
If girls are subject to 'dress code inspection' upon entering the classroom, then boys should be, as well.

I do see why teachers are allowed to check dress code.
Students will arrive at school, then later change, remove more modest over-shirts, etc.
If a teacher were sending too many questionable or non-violations to the office. Then I would think that the office would decide whether the shorts were appropriate.

If the office is allowing the teachers to do this kind of thing, and make this kind of judgement, completely on their own... and are then enforcing the teachers decision, then this isn't going rogue.

Perhaps you could contact the district and the head administrator at the school to ask for more info, and specifics, in writing.
It sounds like this teacher and this principal are both just operating without any oversight. I see that as a problem. There should be specific dress code information and guidelines. (not the whatever-one-individual THINKS) And this should be on the School Board Agenda.

But, of course, that is a big fight, and hill most people would not choose to die on. Sadly.

OP, if the dress code is sexist, then that is your issue. Not necessarily the teacher.
If the teacher is making a bit too much of an effort to 'inspect' girls, while never really even looking at the guys... Then that could be an issue... but that issue would not be the school's dress code. ( I don't know if the teacher is a man or a woman )

Around here I do see girls wearing short capri pants... yes, often they are way to tight, like leggings. But, I wear capri pants, and I can tell you that they are way cooler to wear than long jeans!!!! My full length jeans don't see the light of day from April till Nov!!!!

Perhaps, if your daughter did have shorts that were long enough, you could snap a quick pick of your daughter before she heads out the door, so that you can show exactly what she was wearing, and that it did, in your view, meet any dress code requirements.

Hope this helps to decide how you might want to deal with this problem.
Yes, it is awful. So many parents have issues with dress codes, similarly to this.

Wishing on a star · May 12, 2019

I will also add, if a dress code or school uniform is designed in place to be restrictive so that students could not wear anything that looks like 'money'.
Anyone who would support that is showing a blatant bias, as well as class discrimination.

CarolAnn856 · May 12, 2019

Sparkly said:
In our case, it was hardly unfairness or "suffering". That's just a rule we had to follow, same as your dress codes. No need to get sanctimonious with me.

I will anyway. Had you left your post off at what your dress code was, that would be one thing. But adding in "Somehow, I survived," speaks volumes. Well that, plus decreeing that girls should just buy boys clothing to solve the problem is just unbelievably obtuse and completely legitimizes the fact that many dress codes are sexist.

china mom · May 12, 2019

@wishing, the dress code is not sexist, it is vague. My daughter has no problem with the dress code at all. 90% of her shirts are her brothers hand me downs or purchases from the boys section.

She is uncomfortable being stopped at the door and checked (and made to do the finger test) so she wears long pants on music days. Not sure if the fact that the teacher is male factors in or not.

sam_gordon · May 12, 2019

design_mom said:
Eh... I hear that one a lot, and I'm not sure it works out as well as planned. I wore a uniform (not just a dress code) in grades 1-12. Yes. We were all wearing the same ugly jumper or the same color pants, but the "fitting in" just changed. Just thinking of high school, it wasn't about what clothes you were wearing... it was about what shoes you wore, or what purse you had, or whether you had real diamond earrings, or what car you had (or thought you'd get for your 16th birthday. My answer: no car.)

wgeo said:
There are an incredible number of ways that kids find to stand out even when they have a dress code. This is one of the most misguided reasons for a dress code in my opinion. About half of the public schools in our area have a dress code and the ways that I have seen kids "get around" the dress code to show off their wealth is incredible. It is still very obvious which kids have more money and which kids don't.

I never said a dress code will eliminate ALL the ways kids can/will standout, but it can eliminate some of them. I posted our middle school dress code earlier... khaki pants/skirt, school shirt (either middle school or HS) - can be t-shirt or collared, and a belt. Pretty even.

I'm still waiting for the "anti dress code" crowd to say whether it's ok for a child to show up with a NSFW image or words on a shirt.

wgeo · May 12, 2019

sam_gordon said:
I never said a dress code will eliminate ALL the ways kids can/will standout, but it can eliminate some of them. I posted our middle school dress code earlier... khaki pants/skirt, school shirt (either middle school or HS) - can be t-shirt or collared, and a belt. Pretty even.

I'm still waiting for the "anti dress code" crowd to say whether it's ok for a child to show up with a NSFW image or words on a shirt.

I'm not a big fan of dress codes, but I'm not "anti dress code" either - are we required to be all or none?

Of course a NSFW image or words is inappropriate - just the same way as cussing at a teacher would be inappropriate. There is nothing specifically written in my child's handbook that says that it is wrong to swear at a teacher, but of course doing so will get you into a world of trouble. The same should be true if you were to try to wear clothes that had that type of language on them.

Prince_Hawkins · May 12, 2019

Dress codes need to be gender-neutral anytime they're used within public venues.

luvsJack · May 12, 2019

Wishing on a star said:
I will also add, if a dress code or school uniform is designed in place to be restrictive so that students could not wear anything that looks like 'money'.
Anyone who would support that is showing a blatant bias, as well as class discrimination.

Our kids wore a uniform. Khakis, polo shirt in school colors, belt, black or white socks. Parents bought the pieces where they chose.

You can buy these basic pieces at any store. The kids could tell you within seconds which stores anyone’s uniform came from. So the whole not being able to wear anything that looks like money doesn’t hold water for these kind of dress codes.

Local Catholic school requires all uniform pieces, jacket, socks and shoes of every student to be bought from the same company. These pieces are very expensive. And the kids could still who had more money by who had several outfits and who had the same two they wore over and over. So even when everyone truly has the exact same clothing, they still know.

And incidentally, dd’s uniform pieces came from a range of cheapest place possible to the more middle of the line stores. So it’s not like I was one who spent a great deal of money on her school clothes.

Wishing on a star · May 12, 2019

Just FYI, My post about the intent of school uniforms was in direct response to another poster.

OP, if what you posted is the School Districts dress code, in its entirety, yes it is very vague. Too vague.
And, if this is the situation, I do think that this teacher is overstepping. (Maybe even a bit demeaning or creepy???)
But, that still leaves a lot of questions.
Apparently, if this teacher is sending girls to the office, the Administration in the office are accepting and enabling this.

I don't know if there is any creepy factor, because girls at this age can be super sensitive.
And, I think you would have to have a LOT more than this dress code inspection to begin to bring that up.
So far, I am not seeing any basis there.

So, we really don't know if this is a problem with the School District policy, This particular school, the teacher, or a very sensitive young teen girl.

My reaction/action would be based on what the real underlying issues really are.

I can say that I would not be happy with students and parents being subjected to, and judged by / disciplined for, a policy that is so vague and unclear.
I don't really see a way to address something that is nothing more than one person's (this teacher's) personal opinion.
It would seem that this opinion is just fine and dandy with the Principal/Administration.

mummabear · May 13, 2019

Hikergirl said:
So for those saying it's sexist are you saying that if a boy comes in in booty shorts he wouldn't be dress coded?

Rugby/sports shorts are pretty well accepted for boys.

Soldier's*Sweeties said:
I really hate dress codes. They are so one-sided and antiquated.

No one examines the boys in the way they do the girls. It can be humiliating for them (as I know from experience).

If boys can’t concentrate because my daughter’s shoulders are showing, or her shorts are three inches above her knee, that is their issue, not hers.

Boys’ dress codes are based on safety such as “wallet chains”, or the possibility of being distractions, like hats. None (or few) have to do with their actual body.

I’m sure someone will come along and tell me I’m wrong, but I don’t care. That’s my opinion, and yes, I do make my kids follow the rules set in school.

This exactly. I wouldnt allow my daughters to wear daisy dukes to school, but I believe this is a parenting decision, not a schools place.
A dress code for school should be relevant to safety, long hair tied back for shop class, closed toed shoes etc.
I think that the issues causee by creating an enforcing a dress code far outweigh any possible benefits of having things like length of shorts monitored.

sam_gordon · May 13, 2019

mummabear said:
I wouldnt allow my daughters to wear daisy dukes to school, but I believe this is a parenting decision, not a schools place.

As others have mentioned, just because your child wore one thing while leaving the house doesn't mean that's what they're wearing at school. So your daughters wouldn't wear daisy dukes out of the house. But what stops them from putting them on in the school bathroom? Should the school just allow them to wear them since "it's a parenting decision"? Yes, it's an extreme hypothetical, but one schools need to deal with. So they need a policy that gives a minimum length of shorts (or skirts). I don't think you can do a subjective line because different teachers will judge it differently. So you go to objective... finger tip length, hitting the floor while kneeling, "flamingo" test (one of our schools used that... stand on one leg with the other bent 90 degrees behind... if the shorts/skirt touched the calf of the bent leg, you were fine), etc. But, once you go to objective, that causes other issues.

tzolkin · May 13, 2019

Sparkly said:
What's stopping your daughter from buying boys shorts, then? Problem solved. They're just shorts.

As the mom of one daughter who did wear boys clothes during high school, bullying and peer pressure is what's stopping the average girl from wearing them. It's not even just the kids, parents and teachers will also comment both directly to the child and talk about them when they are not around. There is a lot of controversy still over homosexuality and transgender issues, so that is also brought into it. They are not seen as "just shorts". Whether intentional or not, they are seen as an affront to gender norms.

Colleen27 said:
As far as buying boys shorts, that only really works for girls until puberty. Once they reach a certain point, generally in middle school, the waist-to-hip ratio just doesn't work for girls who have started to develop. And ill-fitting clothes aren't exactly comfortable or attractive/tidy-looking on anyone.

This is true for most girls. My middle daughter is tiny and weighs at least 30lb less than her brother, but she cannot fit into any of his shorts or pants because they are way too tight in the butt and thighs. She recently tried on all of his shorts for a character day at school and the ones she could even get on, she couldn't sit or move easily.

My daughter who did wear boys shorts had to buy them baggy (and she still had to buy women's pants/jeans because mens didn't fit).

"Dress Coded"

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Starlight, starbright...

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probably more like my dad than I care to admit

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