Game of Thrones - Season 8 - NO SPOILERS PLEASE

Yes!

And the short preview for next week, looks like there are even more of at least the Unsullied, lined up in the courtyard. Did Dany, leave a reserve legion in Essos that she arranged to show up in King's Landing for the battle?

General thoughts. I'm surprised at the "how could Dany do this?" outrage. They did a pretty good job of hiding the likelihood of Dany going mad until this season, but in retrospect they had planted all the appropriate seeds. Take any of the cliches "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions," "the Villain is the Hero in their own story," "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." All of Dany's victories have come with large death tolls. She has always been ruthless to people she believes were against her. And her allies, who had talked her out of some of her other blood-thirsty decisions, had been stripped away one by one.

Arya, while I correctly thought she would abandon her quest for vengeance against Cersei, I guessed wrongly that it would be to help Sandor and not because he simply asked her to. Today, I am seeing her character as a bit of a mirror to Dany. Arya has been walking the path of vengeance since she started her list. She had convinced herself that her destiny lead to death. But as destruction rains down around her, she is reminded that you always have a choice, and she decides that she still is telling the God of Death, "Not Today." So as Dany turns down the path of vengeance, Arya steps off it. Now, she still is a capable killer, so does she have a role to play when it comes to Dany, maybe? But it will not be driven by vengeance, but necessity and in defense of Westeros.

Secondly in regards to Arya, there was a lot of talk after the previous episode about how pointless the Night King and White Walkers turned out to be, and how the TV writers seemed to abandon the what was more important that war, or the Iron Throne. I think the writer's took all of the "there are bigger battles than who sits on the throne" and put it into this battle and not the one with the White Walkers. Which I can see in today's climate being a legitimate choice. It's too easy to look at a mystical, army of the dead and thinking, there are no lessons to be learned. While humans conducting a reign of terror against perceived enemies...yeah, there are many parallels that can be made. Arya's run through the city shows the brutality of war. There are no winners, only losers. Tyrion and Jon having to realize that they hitched themselves behind the wrong horse, no matter how bad Cersei was. There is not the right side and the wrong side, there can be two wrong sides. Quote War Games: "Strange game. The only winning move is not to play." Both Tyrion and Jon failed to recognize that and it cost hundreds of thousands of people their lives (how big is King's Landing anyway? I think of it similar to London).

Jaime and Cersei. I found the whole thing unsatisfying. I blame the needs of a TV show. I'm hoping the books do a better job of showing that Jaime wasn't really winning his path of redemption, but instead a person who weaves back and forth between doing the right thing and wrong thing based on his personal whims and needs. Yes, he's good when it comes to Tyrion and Brienne (I'm not including the TV romance part, just the knight part). Bad when it comes to Cersei. Jaime, the TV character needed to be popular, so he got more redemption arc that perhaps was wise, so it seems like he just threw it all away. Instead of being portrayed as a character that struggled up to the end, and had never broken his co-dependent chains. Cersei, I don't think got a just comeuppance. Hoping for more internal dialog in a book format. Dieing in Jaime's arms, still seems like a victory for her. Like if you're going to die, rather it be in the arms of the one you love. Although I do like the idea that she died anonymously. I can imagine the ruins of the Red Keep being too great to dig down to the bowels, and so her body is never found. And although the audience knows her final fate, as far as the people of Westeros are concerned, "Whatever happened to Cersei Lannister? Nobody knows."

Yes! My post on the prior page was getting way too long, but I also saw Arya's abandonment of her quest to off Cersei as a juxtaposition against Dany.

"Not today."

In the end, Arya realized her quest for life (she ended up trying to help people on the streets) was worthier than her quest for revenge - totally unlike Dany, who in her quest for revenge, ended up killing all the innocents in the street.

And, yes, Dany has always been ruthless! When she was married to Khal Drago, you could even see a little how some of the violence of the Dothraki ways turned her on a bit. And, when someone's not loyal to her, she's never been afraid of executing her revenge. Mormont sometimes had a hard time reigning her in (convincing her of other, better ways), & now the only person left to her is Tyrion really. And she's done listening to him.

She liked being the Breaker of Chains & having the Unsullied & Dothraki & former slaves love her & that helped to steady her. But, once she got across the sea, she no longer had that... you could see in her face when she realizes how alone she is the night of the Winterfell celebration when everyone is rallying around Jon. She tries to bring them around to her by toasting Arya & naming Gendry heir, but it doesn't work. She's alone & can no longer rule w/ love.

And, again, YES to the idea that it's not so much our mythical battles w/ unknown forces like the Night King but our battles w/ ourselves & what we do to each other that can end up being the most destructive & significant - "the things we do for love."

Like you said, sometimes there's no "right" side or "wrong side," & there can be 2 wrong sides. And, like Jon Snow & Ser Davos, you can start out thinking you're doing right & trying to do right - but end up in the middle of a mess & calling for retreat.

As Cersei said, "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or die."

The only way to survive is not play.

But, in the end, I did find Jamie & Cersie & their end satisfying. When the 2 queens were facing each other - Dany & Cersei - across King's Landing, I realized that maybe Dany shouldn't have the satisfaction of taking her down outright. I think, in the end, her dying in Jamie's arms was a bit of victory over Dany, & I'm okay w/ that.

And, I also think that *maybe* Arya's revenge quest against Cersei was a bit unjustified. Cersei did NOT want Ned to die - she protested Joffrey's edict at the time & realized the implications of his death. And, everything that Cersei did to bring about Ned's eventual downfall was to preserve her own life & that of her children's. In season one, she asked Ned, "Do you love your children." When he said something like, "Of course," she replied, "So do I." So, I'm also okay w/ Arya letting Sandor convince her that she has more important things to do in life besides kill Cersei.

And Cersei still got her comeuppance. She died, not as a major player, but as a random unknown.
 
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Dani has gone mad. I told DH that I hope someone (Arya) kills her. Jon killing her would also be satisfying. Jamie and his confession of love to Cersei was disappointing. Yet is was also predictable.

Is the Hounds brother magic? He took so many knife wounds to his body and it didn't phase him. Satisfying end for both of them. Although it would have been better if the Hound killed Cersei as she passed down the stairs.

I anticipate Arya going after Dani now to kill her. She killed innocent people, whole families and that is what pushed Arya to change her direction for vengeance, at least IMO. Why else would she so reluctantly follow the Hounds suggestion.

Was Jon to scared to speak up about Varys's death? He just stood there and didn't say anything. At least Tyrion gave him a heads up. True the dragons fire killing him was an interesting touch and should have foreshadowed the entire nights events.

Euron and his battle with Jamie, ehhh. Euron did make a comment about how would Jamie like to kill one more king? Does this mean that he married Cersei in secret?
 
Pale horse meaning death is a Christian thing which this show is not. I think the white horse means new life. I could be wrong. I have been so wrong about so much with this show. But usually that's because of me following forums and you tube and articles and the such. When I go with my gut, I usually am close. My gut says Gendry and Arya are it....Arya is the prince that was promised. Jon and Tyrion kill Dany and Drogon and Jon will die too. Davos likely as well. I don't feel tyrion or Sansa will die. Just my gut.

Actually there are a lot of themes and symbolism drawn on for the stories. At the rate this season has gone pretty much anything is up for grabs IMO.

I feel Sansa will live. I'm very worried about Brienne. I feel Gendry survives. I'm hoping against hope Arya is headed for Storm's End. I think Ser Davos just might make it. I think Tyrion could go either way at this point, but I'm hopeful he lives to pay his debts to Bronn. No way I see Dany surviving. I've resigned myself to Jon's death, but the only one I see likely to take him out at this point is Grey Worm if Dany marks Jon a traitor. I don't think Drogan can/will kill Jon.
 
Jaime and Cersei. I found the whole thing unsatisfying. I blame the needs of a TV show. I'm hoping the books do a better job of showing that Jaime wasn't really winning his path of redemption, but instead a person who weaves back and forth between doing the right thing and wrong thing based on his personal whims and needs. Yes, he's good when it comes to Tyrion and Brienne (I'm not including the TV romance part, just the knight part). Bad when it comes to Cersei. Jaime, the TV character needed to be popular, so he got more redemption arc that perhaps was wise, so it seems like he just threw it all away. Instead of being portrayed as a character that struggled up to the end, and had never broken his co-dependent chains. Cersei, I don't think got a just comeuppance. Hoping for more internal dialog in a book format. Dieing in Jaime's arms, still seems like a victory for her. Like if you're going to die, rather it be in the arms of the one you love. Although I do like the idea that she died anonymously. I can imagine the ruins of the Red Keep being too great to dig down to the bowels, and so her body is never found. And although the audience knows her final fate, as far as the people of Westeros are concerned, "Whatever happened to Cersei Lannister? Nobody knows."

The books seemed to be more into his redemption arc than the show ever was. I hope the books follow through with it and have Jaime kill Cersei (the valonqar prophecy that the show never got into).
 


I remember Arya saying several time "I'm going to kill the queen." I know Cersei was on her list, but whenever she was headed to King's Landing, did she ever actually use the words "I'm going to kill Cersei?"
 
Actually there are a lot of themes and symbolism drawn on for the stories. At the rate this season has gone pretty much anything is up for grabs IMO.

I feel Sansa will live. I'm very worried about Brienne. I feel Gendry survives. I'm hoping against hope Arya is headed for Storm's End. I think Ser Davos just might make it. I think Tyrion could go either way at this point, but I'm hopeful he lives to pay his debts to Bronn. No way I see Dany surviving. I've resigned myself to Jon's death, but the only one I see likely to take him out at this point is Grey Worm if Dany marks Jon a traitor. I don't think Drogan can/will kill Jon.

I'm actually hoping Jon lives because of that line Tormund says to him when they're parting. Jon says something about the North & how he'd like to be going w/ Tormund but can't.

And Tormund says, "You never know."

But, then again, he's died once, & maybe he was only brought back for a certain purpose, &, once that is done, he's done. (I really hope not though!)

I don't see a way for Dany to survive, but I'd love if the rest of them (Jon, Ser Davos, Brienne, Sansa, Tyrion, Arya, Bronn, & Gendry) survive.

A Ser Davos death will devastate me.

The only one I can't make my mind up about is Bran. Where does he fit in?
 
The books seemed to be more into his redemption arc than the show ever was. I hope the books follow through with it and have Jaime kill Cersei (the valonqar prophecy that the show never got into).

Maybe Jamie jumped on Cersei to try to shield her from the rubble and his sword accidentally punctured her, causing her death.

Thinking this makes me feel better. :D
 


And, I also think that *maybe* Arya's revenge quest against Cersei was a bit unjustified. Cersei did NOT want Ned to die - she protested Joffrey's edict at the time & realized the implications of his death. And, everything that Cersei did to bring about Ned's eventual downfall was to preserve her own life & that of her children's. In season one, she asked Ned, "Do you love her children." When he said something like, "Of course," she replied, "So do I." So, I'm also okay w/ Arya letting Sandor convince her that she more important things to do in life besides kill Cersei.

And Cersei still got her comeuppance. She died, not as a major player, but as a random unknown.

But there's also good reasoning why Arya would feel Cersei's death is entirely justified. Arya was a child when she and her sister left Winterfell with their father and the royal family to head to King's Landing. Cersei's son was hideous and it resulted in Cersei demanding Mycah's execution and Nymeria's, resulting in Arya sending her beloved pet away. Then Cersei insisted Lady be killed. Ultimately events took place where Lannister forces acted against her father in KL, killed all of his men, imprisoned and ultimately executed him.

What basis would Arya have for coming to the conclusion that Cersei didn't endorse Ned's execution? Standing in only Arya's shoes and seeing what she's seen, it makes perfect sense she wants Cersei dead. As the audience we have a lot more details into many of the events than Arya would have.
 
But there's also good reasoning why Arya would feel Cersei's death is entirely justified. Arya was a child when she and her sister left Winterfell with their father and the royal family to head to King's Landing. Cersei's son was hideous and it resulted in Cersei demanding Mycah's execution and Nymeria's, resulting in Arya sending her beloved pet away. Then Cersei insisted Lady be killed. Ultimately events took place where Lannister forces acted against her father in KL, killed all of his men, imprisoned and ultimately executed him.

What basis would Arya have for coming to the conclusion that Cersei didn't endorse Ned's execution? Standing in only Arya's shoes and seeing what she's seen, it makes perfect sense she wants Cersei dead. As the audience we have a lot more details into many of the events than Arya would have.

This is all quite true as well! And I had forgotten about Mycah.

So, yes, in Arya's eyes, revenge against Cersei was justified (& probably rightfully so). I'm just okay w/ Cersei dying the way she did.

Going back to Dany,I was reading the comments of another posted review of the episode, & someone was protesting Dany's "sudden turn" by saying, all along, the show's writers (by the dialogue, the characters' actions & reactions, by the music even) have wanted us to think of Dany as a heroine & then for Dany suddenly to eviscerate thousands of innocents feels like a betrayal.

However, in thinking about this concept, that's actually the way real life works sometimes. We go along thinking one thing about a person or group of persons, thinking we "know" them, thinking the person is the "good guy," & then something happens, &, suddenly, we realize we were wrong.

Edited to Add - "7 Times GoT Hinted Dany's Mad Queen Turn"

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/13/game-of-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen/
 
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Davos and Jon did not enter the city until the Unsullied and Dothraki. They were rally at the back of the frey and only came forward when the last defenders were outside the gate to the red keep. Davos had a sword and did use it after Gey Worm went all vengence and they started killing all the soldiers who had dropped their swords. He then tried to get the innocents out and Dani started lighting it up. Targerions are known for their green eyes. Hence the Millasandra prophesy that Ariya will shut brown eyes, blue eyes and green eyes. She is my odds on favorite to kill Dani. Although for some reason I think Dani is going to keep her one dragon very close just in case someone makes the move.

I don't remember anything about Targaryens having green eyes. The books describe Dany as having violet eyes as I recall. I really think that whole brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes thing was a way of saying she'd kill a lot of people and then as a signal to her to get out there and kill the Night King. Could be wrong obviously, but no way Dany having green eyes would ever correlate to the books.

Dani has gone mad. I told DH that I hope someone (Arya) kills her. Jon killing her would also be satisfying. Jamie and his confession of love to Cersei was disappointing. Yet is was also predictable.

Is the Hounds brother magic? He took so many knife wounds to his body and it didn't phase him. Satisfying end for both of them. Although it would have been better if the Hound killed Cersei as she passed down the stairs.

I anticipate Arya going after Dani now to kill her. She killed innocent people, whole families and that is what pushed Arya to change her direction for vengeance, at least IMO. Why else would she so reluctantly follow the Hounds suggestion.

Was Jon to scared to speak up about Varys's death? He just stood there and didn't say anything. At least Tyrion gave him a heads up. True the dragons fire killing him was an interesting touch and should have foreshadowed the entire nights events.

Euron and his battle with Jamie, ehhh. Euron did make a comment about how would Jamie like to kill one more king? Does this mean that he married Cersei in secret?

Euron was the King of the Iron Islands.
 
This is all quite true as well! And I had forgotten about Mycah.

So, yes, in Arya's eyes, revenge against Cersei was justified (& probably rightfully so). I'm just okay w/ Cersei dying the way she did.

Going back to Dany,I was reading the comments of another posted review of the episode, & someone was protesting Dany's "sudden turn" by saying, all along, the show's writers (by the dialogue, the characters' actions & reactions, by the music even) have wanted us to think of Dany as a herione & then for Dany suddenly to eviscerate thousands of innocents feels like a betrayal.

However, in thinking about this concept, that's actually the way real life works sometimes. We go along thinking one thing about a person or group of persons, thinking we "know" them, thinking the person is the "good guy," & then something happens, &, suddenly, we realize we were wrong.

Edited to Add - "7 Times GoT Hinted Dany's Mad Queen Turn"

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/13/game-of-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen/

We were so stupid not to know Dany wasn't worthy of the throne -- Tyrion trusted her to the bitter end, only seemingly getting somewhat of a clue when he patted Varys' shoulder goodbye and admitted to betraying him. Maybe if Tyrion didn't drink so much he could have put more energy into actually knowing things?
 
This was certainly an epic episode. I could see the "mad queen" line coming a mile away, they've been eluding to it basically from season 1. Dany's not afraid of blood, she never has been.

As for the rest, it's decently in character. Jon doesn't want the throne (although I think he'll end up on it because he's a noble person and tries to do the right thing, and that would be to rule) but he's now found himself if this hellscape that he was hoping against hope wouldn't happen. He gave his word that he'd help Dany with Cersei, and he's satisfied that word.

I think the one who'd going to kill Dany will be Tyrion. He's discovering that he's just not as clever as he thinks he is. Since he's been Dany's hand, about the only right thing he actually did was free the dragons from under the pyramid in Mereen. His attempted deal with the slavers resulted in them sacking the city, and Dany had to bail them out. His attempted deal with Cersei resulted in them being betrayed by her and almost losing to the Night King. His attempt to be loyal to Dany and reveal Varys' betrayal resulted in Varys' death, and Dany going nutso. He's been wrong in just about every decision he's made since he won at Blackwater, so this isn't a new thing for him for this season. He'll die killing Dany, but as he said, what is the life of one not so innocent dwarf compared to the lives of the citizens?

I think Arya saw what Dany was doing, and listened to the Hound and realized that Dany is going to come for Sansa and the North now. Arya and Sansa have been pretty close since she returned to Winterfell, and she's heading home to help protect her and the North. Ultimately I think she'll end up with Gendry, either that, or Sansa will and it will be a marriage of political convenience that will actually work.

But, considering I've been completely wrong about everything except Dany going crazy, I'll wait until next week and see!
 
We were so stupid not to know Dany wasn't worthy of the throne -- Tyrion trusted her to the bitter end, only seemingly getting somewhat of a clue when he patted Varys' shoulder goodbye and admitted to betraying him. Maybe if Tyrion didn't drink so much he could have put more energy into actually knowing things?

LOL!

And, seriously, in history from the beginning of time all the way to the present, how many times have groups of people followed (sometimes blindly) leaders they thought were wonderful - only to be shown, often after it's too late, that, no, the person really was evil?

(And I'm also laughing... every time you quote me, I suddenly see several typos & misspelled words in what I've written! Oops!!)
 
I liked the moment that Arya had with Sandor. She realized she really wanted to live, just has to decide for what now. Everything she's done to date has been to revenge or protect her family. Not sure she will get involved with Dany.
 

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