Disney Skyliner (Gondola Transportation System) Read Post 1 Now Open!

firefly_ris · May 17, 2019

TomServo27 said:
Tim Tracker had a video today from Caribbean beach. The gondolas were just running in the background and I was surprised by how cool it looked. It really ads something to those resorts. Tim even commented on it how it ads an energy to the resort.

I saw that. I should have stopped myself from reading the comments which as expected were filled with "omg these will b so hot" and at least 2-3 other people commenting about how the stopping/starting is to practice loading ECVs, which they know because they worked a gondola in a theme park. I know it's basically impossible to prevent misinformation spread but I think soooo many people will be pleasantly surprised as to how these actually function for real.

NotUrsula · May 17, 2019

OSUZorba said:
Comparing them to one of the top attractions on property vs the transportation system they are replacing makes no sense. Especially when that attraction didn't launch nearly as often.

I don't think anyone has said there'd be no waits during closing or some waits in the morning, just that it'll be much better than the buses.

So what *is* the current standard load speed of TSMM? IME it's pretty short, but I've never timed it, and I've not been able to find it noted anywhere online. I know it is more than 11 seconds, but how much more? (Also, while 11 seconds is the Skyliner test speed we are seeing, you know that there is every possibility that in practice the system may run more slowly. Optimal load interval is something that really cannot be determined when running only empty cars; they will need real-world loading data (with strollers, and toddlers, and helium balloons, and backpacks, and confused people ...) in order to determine a final number on that, because as I said upthread, for this system the loading speed will in practice be limited by the workable un-loading speed.))

The thing is, Disney World has a history of difficulties arising when transportation systems are viewed by guests as attraction rides, and I don't think this one is going to be an exception to that pattern. This is new and unusual technology for Florida, and I think that there will be many guests who will ride it just for the novelty of doing so (though I suspect that many locals may wait for cooler weather before trying it: I personally think that this year's holiday season is likely to see a surge of people wanting to ride it and get a bonus look at resort decorations at night.)

TheMaxRebo · May 17, 2019

NotUrsula said:
The thing is, Disney World has a history of difficulties arising when transportation systems are viewed by guests as attraction rides, and I don't think this one is going to be an exception to that pattern. This is new and unusual technology for Florida, and I think that there will be many guests who will ride it just for the novelty of doing so (though I suspect that many locals may wait for cooler weather before trying it: I personally think that this year's holiday season is likely to see a surge of people wanting to ride it and get a bonus look at resort decorations at night.)

I definitely think when it first opens you will see a lot of people wanting to "check it out" and also, I think more people than perhaps they think will structure their days to use it to transport between ECPOT and DHS - but over time I think that will work itself out

... well, until they figure out how to monetize it with a dining package or special cupcake or something

joelkfla · May 17, 2019

NotUrsula said:
So what *is* the current standard load speed of TSMM? IME it's pretty short, but I've never timed it, and I've not been able to find it noted anywhere online. I know it is more than 11 seconds, but how much more? (Also, while 11 seconds is the Skyliner test speed we are seeing, you know that there is every possibility that in practice the system may run more slowly. Optimal load interval is something that really cannot be determined when running only empty cars; they will need real-world loading data (with strollers, and toddlers, and helium balloons, and backpacks, and confused people ...) in order to determine a final number on that, because as I said upthread, for this system the loading speed will in practice be limited by the workable un-loading speed.))

I too tried to find a YouTube of TSM showing dispatch interval, but seems like everyone just shows one set of cars loading and then skips to the on-ride action. I did find one estimate of 500 pph per track, but I don't know how good that is. So if we accept that estimate, with 3 tracks running, TSM capacity would be about half of the Skyliner's.

skier_pete · May 17, 2019

NotUrsula said:
I wasn't addressing buses at all; I was simply speculating that there WILL sometimes be a wait for gondolas due to high demand. A continuous-load system that has a secondary loading loop for the disabled will come closer to continuous no-wait regular loading than it is possible for any other kind of system to manage, but as we see with TSMM, it. still. happens. Even with doubled capacity over what it had when it was opened, TSMM sometimes still has standby waits of close to 2 hours, so it stands to reason that capacity issues will also occasionally create a wait at the Skyliner, because the load capacity of the system is finite, while the possibility of crowd growth is not (or at least, the limit is not something that WDW will tell us.)

I personally don't have a dog in the Skyliner vs. buses hunt, as I seldom use the buses at any other park than MK. Still, when at WDW I expect to wait for things, and I think that to assume otherwise, about anything on property, is to invite frustration.

I don't completely get the comparison. TSMM has 800 per track at full load, so 2400 theoretical per hour, but realistically more like around 2000. I think that the gondolas they've been saying 4000 capacity but that is each way.

I agree that people will be checking out the gondola as a "ride" but I don't see it as the same as a true ride crowd after the first day - which will likely have every blogger in Florida in line. I still think the capacity is more than high enough to handle that. As I've said many times, it has the transportation ability of about 60 buses an hour from resorts that would normally send around 15 buses an hour. So it will only be at about 25 % of capacity most of the time in the morning. Will there be surges where you get 5 minute waits, sure. But 10 minute + waits will be only at theme park close, and I bet even then the waits won't get longer than 10-15 minutes at the peak surge. Because as soon as someone gets in line they are whisked away. It's not like the buses where you show up and stand behind 200 people and watch every bus ride by, and then finally your bus shows up, but then everyone loads in and you know you're not getting on and then you wait again.

And as others have said, it's a true continuous load. TSMM is NOT a continuous load. 4 cars stop - 16 people get out, 16 people get on. It takes about a minute. The gondolas will be loading 6-10 people every 8 seconds. The line will be moving ALL THE TIME. A ten minute wait won't feel like a 10 minute wait because you are constantly getting closer to your destination.

I think if I was going to compare it to an in-park ride, the one I would compare it to is the Peoplemover - a true continuous load and a huge capacity. Even when a line back up at the Peoplemover (and last few times there were lines) it moves so fast you never wait long.

Trust me - the gondolas are going to blow the buses away as a park to resort transportation. I am also hoping it will absorb some of the boat crowds, making the boat transportation more efficient.

joelkfla · May 17, 2019

skier_pete said:
I agree that people will be checking out the gondola as a "ride" but I don't see it as the same as a true ride crowd after the first day - which will likely have every blogger in Florida in line. I still think the capacity is more than high enough to handle that. As I've said many times, it has the transportation ability of about 60 buses an hour from resorts that would normally send around 15 buses an hour. So it will only be at about 25 % of capacity most of the time in the morning. Will there be surges where you get 5 minute waits, sure. But 10 minute + waits will be only at theme park close, and I bet even then the waits won't get longer than 10-15 minutes at the peak surge. Because as soon as someone gets in line they are whisked away. It's not like the buses where you show up and stand behind 200 people and watch every bus ride by, and then finally your bus shows up, but then everyone loads in and you know you're not getting on and then you wait again.

Another point: the sightseers will be riding midday or early evening when ridership is low, not so much during peaks at park opening & close.

scrappinginontario · May 17, 2019

I just watched a TSMM video. It was 30 seconds from the time the car arrived until it was dispatched again. I knew it was much longer than 11 seconds as we have time for other guests to exit, ourselves load, and then chat a bit before the car dispatches to begin the ride.

TheMaxRebo · May 17, 2019

scrappinginontario said:
I just watched a TSMM video. It was 30 seconds from the time the car arrived until it was dispatched again. I knew it was much longer than 11 seconds as we have time for other guests to exit, ourselves load, and then chat a bit before the car dispatches to begin the ride.

I think it is hard to compare as they have to time when the cars on TSMM dispatch as there are periods the cars are "stuck" at their stations playing that round of the game ... you can't just do continual loading and release even if you wanted to

I get the point of comparing the two as far as cars coming into a station and loading people and then they go out ... but I think something like the People Mover would be a better comparison if we even want to compare to a ride

scrappinginontario · May 17, 2019

TheMaxRebo said:
I think it is hard to compare as they have to time when the cars on TSMM dispatch as there are periods the cars are "stuck" at their stations playing that round of the game ... you can't just do continual loading and release even if you wanted to

I get the point of comparing the two as far as cars coming into a station and loading people and then they go out ... but I think something like the People Mover would be a better comparison if we even want to compare to a ride

I am not trying to compare the load of TSMM vs Skyliner. I was only answering the question of how long it takes to load TSMM based on 1 video. That's all.

Weedy · May 17, 2019

More video of the EPCOT station

TheMaxRebo · May 17, 2019

scrappinginontario said:
I am not trying to compare the load of TSMM vs Skyliner. I was only answering the question of how long it takes to load TSMM based on 1 video. That's all.

Sorry, didn't mean to single you out - more commenting on the general discussion

Weedy · May 17, 2019

Interesting Q&A from the Gondola Project in Rio de Janeiro. Doppelmayr built both. Capacity 3000 pphpd (passenger per hour per direction)
http://gondolaproject.com/faqs/

rteetz · May 17, 2019

Updated Skyliner list

Weedy · May 17, 2019

Another interesting video. This was a system in Germany. Build in 2003 also by Doppelmayr. It was just a temporary system and no longer in service.
The video shows a crowd similar to Disney with strollers and wheelchairs.

CouponGirl · May 17, 2019

Weedy said:
Another interesting video. This was a system in Germany. Build in 2003 also by Doppelmayr. It was just a temporary system and no longer in service.
The video shows a crowd similar to Disney with strollers and wheelchairs.

Thanks for sharing! I was having a hard time imagining how it would work with strollers and wheelchairs with the continuous movement, but actually seems very easy and convenient!

rteetz · May 17, 2019

CouponGirl said:
Thanks for sharing! I was having a hard time imagining how it would work with strollers and wheelchairs with the continuous movement, but actually seems very easy and convenient!

Disney will be different though. Disney has the second turn point in each station so wheelchairs and ECVs will have even more load time and the cabins on the second turn can stop completely to allow for the loading.

NotUrsula · May 18, 2019

skier_pete said:
[snip]
...
And as others have said, it's a true continuous load. TSMM is NOT a continuous load. 4 cars stop - 16 people get out, 16 people get on. It takes about a minute. The gondolas will be loading 6-10 people every 8 seconds. The line will be moving ALL THE TIME. A ten minute wait won't feel like a 10 minute wait because you are constantly getting closer to your destination.

I think if I was going to compare it to an in-park ride, the one I would compare it to is the Peoplemover - a true continuous load and a huge capacity. Even when a line back up at the Peoplemover (and last few times there were lines) it moves so fast you never wait long.[snip]

I've seen TTA lines of over an hour several times in recent years; me, I call that fairly long.. You are correct that TSMM isn't a true continuous load, but it is often a faster load than the TTA (or Spaceship Earth) because those must be stopped to load disabled passengers. The presence of the stationary loop is what caused me to use TSMM in my comparison. (And please note that I did give the Skyliner a minimum 50% handicap due to car size, & assumed another percentage would be granted due to increased speed; what's unknown is what exactly that percentage might need to be in order to ensure a peak-period wait that is consistently (and appreciably) less than 50% of the average TSMM wait.

We will have to disagree that a moving queue doesn't feel like a queue; I really don't find any true difference when I'm still on my sore feet waiting for something.

Trust me - the gondolas are going to blow the buses away as a park to resort transportation. I am also hoping it will absorb some of the boat crowds, making the boat transportation more efficient.

I don't dispute that (assuming that the passive cooling does indeed work as advertised.) However, I've never tried to argue that buses are preferable or faster. My only point of opinion in this regard concerns whether the Skyliner will at times develop queues of 30 minutes or more, and I think that the answer to that is yes, it well might. (I believe that the dispatch speed will decline a bit in practice. I am guessing it will end up somewhere closer to 30-40 seconds, because with the REALLY large number of strollers at WDW, getting off will be slower than getting on, and they will probably need to adjust for that. Still quite fast, but not as fast as testing with no passengers to deal with.)

skier_pete · May 18, 2019

NotUrsula said:
I don't dispute that (assuming that the passive cooling does indeed work as advertised.) However, I've never tried to argue that buses are preferable or faster. My only point of opinion in this regard concerns whether the Skyliner will at times develop queues of 30 minutes or more, and I think that the answer to that is yes, it well might. (I believe that the dispatch speed will decline a bit in practice. I am guessing it will end up somewhere closer to 30-40 seconds, because with the REALLY large number of strollers at WDW, getting off will be slower than getting on, and they will probably need to adjust for that. Still quite fast, but not as fast as testing with no passengers to deal with.)

I agree with most of your comments I still think that 30 minute queues are never going to happen.

Think like this:
- Worse queues by far will be at Epcot park closing when masses of people are leaving at once.
- People will come out of IG to travel to 4 resorts (CBR, AOA, Pop, and Riviera when it opens.) Possible a few people going back to the DHS parking lot.
- The gondola can take away one bus load of people every 60 seconds.
- Right now, those people are heading to the front of Epcot and waiting for buses. It maybe takes 4 buses to clear all the people going to each of those resorts, but current takes close to an hour to accomplish that. So let's say 16 buses for the four resorts show up between 9 PM and 10 PM when the park closes at 9 PM. Some skip out early from Illuminations, some leave the second Illuminations ends, some dawdle along. They don't all show up at the same time. They're probably spread out across 30-45 minutes leaving the park.
- The gondola can take all those people for all four resorts away in SIXTEEN MINUTES. Not an hour+ like the buses. 16 minutes. That many people won't be able to GET to the gondola in 16 minutes.

Yes there will be surges at times, and you might find a 5-10 minute wait occasionally, but I'm telling you a 30 minute wait will take 2000 people in front of you in line for the gondola. That's 33 busloads of people showing up at the exact same time.

One last point - part of the reason stand-by lines are so long is because of the Fastpass system. A ride like TSMM has 60 minute standby waits because 50-75% of the people getting on the ride are using FP+ and are only waiting 5-10 minutes to get in line. IF TSMM didn't have FP+ the lines would rarely be more than 20-30 minutes. (Well, that's not true, because you would actually get more people waiting in the line for the rides - but I digress.) The Gondolas won't have FP lines. No FP means shorter waits. And as someone else pointed out, you are generally not going to get people saying "I'm going to just ride the gondola for fun" at park closing.

I have some concerns about the gondolas but long lines is not one of them.

TheMaxRebo · May 18, 2019

Weedy said:
Another interesting video. This was a system in Germany. Build in 2003 also by Doppelmayr. It was just a temporary system and no longer in service.
The video shows a crowd similar to Disney with strollers and wheelchairs.

Clearly Disney will be different .... As they allowed wagons!!!

Those also look a bit wider than the ones Disney will have - but also doesn't have the 2nd loop that wheelchairs and ECVs will use - but good indication for how will function for the rest of people

Anthony Vito · May 18, 2019

I think the problem with comparisons to the People Mover is how often that seems to go down which could be a big part of why the line backs up for it. I really like the People Mover (much more than my wife does), but it's reached the point where I'm afraid to ride it if we have any time commitments/plans coming up - it's just too much of a risk that you'll get stuck on it for a while. Last summer when we did a kid-free weekend, we did the After Hours at Magic Kingdom (which we liked and are not interested in the Villains one so much because one of the nicest parts for me was how quiet it was). I would have liked to ride People Mover while the park was empty and quiet - thought that would have been pretty cool - but with such a limited window of time, we did not want to risk it going down while we were on it and losing 30 minutes out of the 3 hours we had.

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