16 Days of MB and FP+

[Planogirl]

I echo Robo's "wow" comment. This thread includes plenty of attacks on both sides and lots of commentary about how that person's method of touring is the right one and others don't count. Nothing really new except so much of it.

I'll just add that points can be made without all of the exaggeration. Many of us don't want to ride certain things over and over. We would settle for just once but tiering can make that very difficult. A vacation should not be difficult.

 

[Robo]

Extrapolating from the directives not to judge FP+ until after using FP+...

We don't just have to "know how FP+ works" AFTER we use it.
Why?

Because we are supposed to BOOK IT... BEFORE we actually use it.
Starting as early as 60 days before we use it.
To do that, we need to either research the attraction lines and FP+ or have experience with the attractions and/or FP+ and/or FP-.

I can tell you from both the research I've done on this and several other Disney boards on what FP+ is, and my experience with successful Disney vacations, many times over, and how FP has enhanced those experiences...
that FP+ is LESS than I expect from my Disney vacation.

I don't like being forced to pay more while being forced to accept less.
While it is of interest to see that some others find they have discovered a tiny crack in the limitations and that they like
FP+, it does not mean that I will like it.
I can tell you that I won't like it nearly as much as "regular" FP.

 

[rebbyparker]

Extrapolating from the directives not to judge FP+ until after using FP+...

We don't just have to "know how FP+ works" AFTER we use it.
Why?

Because we are supposed to BOOK IT... BEFORE we actually use it.
Starting as early as 60 days before we use it.
To do that, we need to either research the attraction lines and FP+ or have experience with the attractions and/or FP+ and/or FP-.

I can tell you from both the research I've done on this and several other Disney boards on what FP+ is, and my experience with successful Disney vacations, many times over, and how FP has enhanced those experiences...
that FP+ is LESS than I expect from my Disney vacation.

I don't like being forced to pay more while being forced to accept less.
While it is of interest to see that some others find they have discovered a tiny crack in the limitations and that they like
FP+, it does not mean that I will like it.
I can tell you that I won't like it nearly as much as "regular" FP.

Agreed.

 

[momof2n2]

Extrapolating from the directives not to judge FP+ until after using FP+... We don't just have to "know how FP+ works" AFTER we use it. Why? Because we are supposed to BOOK IT... BEFORE we actually use it. Starting as early as 60 days before we use it. To do that, we need to either research the attraction lines and FP+ or have experience with the attractions and/or FP+ and/or FP-. I can tell you from both the research I've done on this and several other Disney boards on what FP+ is, and my experience with successful Disney vacations, many times over, and how FP has enhanced those experiences... that FP+ is LESS than I expect from my Disney vacation. I don't like being forced to pay more while being forced to accept less. While it is of interest to see that some others find they have discovered a tiny crack in the limitations and that they like FP+, it does not mean that I will like it. I can tell you that I won't like it nearly as much as "regular" FP.

And again I say, "Yup."

 

[jade1]

Extrapolating from the directives not to judge FP+ until after using FP+...

We don't just have to "know how FP+ works" AFTER we use it.
Why?

Because we are supposed to BOOK IT... BEFORE we actually use it.
Starting as early as 60 days before we use it.
To do that, we need to either research the attraction lines and FP+ or have experience with the attractions and/or FP+ and/or FP-.

I can tell you from both the research I've done on this and several other Disney boards on what FP+ is, and my experience with successful Disney vacations, many times over, and how FP has enhanced those experiences...
that FP+ is LESS than I expect from my Disney vacation.

I don't like being forced to pay more while being forced to accept less.
While it is of interest to see that some others find they have discovered a tiny crack in the limitations and that they like
FP+, it does not mean that I will like it.
I can tell you that I won't like it nearly as much as "regular" FP.

Agree 100% ......except just the opposite.

 

[Colleen27]

What WOULD it have cost to simply create more capacity on TSMM? Or create more eTicket rides? More than what they spent on MB? I don't have the answer, but I can say they would have made it a more enjoyable experience if they had ditched the bands and updated old rides and created new ones. That's my opinion anyway.

One of the books or blogs I read somewhere along the line put the cost of Soarin' at 125mil and TSMM at 80mil, IIRC. And those figures include R&D costs that wouldn't be required for simply cloning popular attractions. It probably wouldn't be possible to do with Test Track, due to the size of the building and the track required, but adding an additional theatre to Soarin' and doubling TSMM would certainly have price tags well below the investment in FP+.

And back to yield management, what do you think about the cc guarantee for dining in this process? I can't reconcile the two things. Advanced ride reservations are designed to get people to sign up for valuable ride slots in advance to keep people on site. An ADR for somewhere like restaurant Marrakesh would do the same thing. But by requiring the cc guarantee, I am not likely to book many of those reservations anymore (especially easy to get ADRs.) it seems counter intuitive.

Unless, with the advanced ride reservations, Disney expects more advanced dining reservations and every restaurant becomes hard to get. Otherwise it makes no sense to run off customers from restaurants that are not full.

I think there is a connection.

I wonder if they do think they'll be able to make every reservation in-demand. Just as we've seen them running one side of PotC virtually empty for FP returns while the standby line builds, they may intend to do the same with "excess" restaurant capacity by closing sections or limiting hours in order to create the same competitive drive to secure inflexible ADRs in advance rather than counting on walk-ups or same-day bookings. The underlying philosophy seems to be the same - flexibility is bad because it means people could choose to spend their money elsewhere, so getting people as locked in as possible as far in advance as possible is more important than the overall experience they will have once they arrive.

And just as those first time guests will have no idea how pointless that FP+ for Figment is, they'll have no idea that an arrival-night ADR for Shutters or Olivia's isn't a score worth chancing a cancellation fee.

 

[ArwenMarie]

One of the books or blogs I read somewhere along the line put the cost of Soarin' at 125mil and TSMM at 80mil, IIRC. And those figures include R&D costs that wouldn't be required for simply cloning popular attractions. It probably wouldn't be possible to do with Test Track, due to the size of the building and the track required, but adding an additional theatre to Soarin' and doubling TSMM would certainly have price tags well below the investment in FP+.



I wonder if they do think they'll be able to make every reservation in-demand. Just as we've seen them running one side of PotC virtually empty for FP returns while the standby line builds, they may intend to do the same with "excess" restaurant capacity by closing sections or limiting hours in order to create the same competitive drive to secure inflexible ADRs in advance rather than counting on walk-ups or same-day bookings. The underlying philosophy seems to be the same - flexibility is bad because it means people could choose to spend their money elsewhere, so getting people as locked in as possible as far in advance as possible is more important than the overall experience they will have once they arrive.

And just as those first time guests will have no idea how pointless that FP+ for Figment is, they'll have no idea that an arrival-night ADR for Shutters or Olivia's isn't a score worth chancing a cancellation fee.

I read somewhere that they already do this with the hotels esp the deluxes...put a certain number of rooms "out of service"

 

[rt2dz]

I definitely agree that you start using FP+ before entering a park. That your use becomes the second your window opens at 60 days out, maybe even as soon as you customize MB since that might mean giving up Legacy FP (refuse to say FP- because I think it is more positive than negative). Although, regardless of using MB, you could be giving up Legacy FP as soon as you agree to stay onsite.

I appreciate the OPs I sites and posting. It is the most helpful I've had. I had 4 friends (groups) at WDW during thanksgiving week. One was newbie, one was a semi-regular and two are annual visitors. All had very different experiences. Guess who loved the whole thing? The newbie who knew no difference. One regular and the semi-regular were "meh" over the whole thing. The other regular hated it with such a deep passion it wasn't funny. So many variables to consider.

Sent from my iPad using DISBoards

 

[lucyem]

Work with your kids on proper magic band placement so the line keeps moving. .

This drove me a little crazy. All those mickey heads are one height but they need to add shorter ones. Little kids with bands have a hard time touching the band correctly to the mickey head. I dont know how many kids i saw trying and trying and then having a parent, often in a rush or embarrassment over the line, grab them and wrench their arm to get it to match up correctly.

OP thank you for your post. I was there last week and i completely agree with your assessment of the situation.

 

[Robo]

My top reason is being able to get fastpasses for any time of the day. Not being at the mercy of the FP- return clock to try to work the return time into your plans. For example, you have ADR lunch at 12:00 and the current return time for what you want is 12:00-1:00. After they took away the unofficial "return anytime after", it was more difficult. Or you can plan fastpasses for the evening if that fits your plans better, I did that on my arrival day.

That sounds like a great use, if it fits your needs.
(And, being able to MOVE the return time, if there are FP positions left at that time.)

I just have to say that the limit of 3 is still a sticking point for our style.

 

[the_bUg]

I don't like being forced to pay more while being forced to accept less.

Sorry to state the obvious, but you have a choice in this, you simply may not like that choice. It has been gone over multiple times and should now be obvious that the FP+ system is unlikely to be palatable to those whose touring style involved multiple parks/multiple FP-. It is a statement of fact that this NEW system has less capacity for flexibility than the previous system, resulting in the more experienced WDW attendees having to scale back their level of activity.

With this in mind and giving Disney Parks the credit they deserve (ie: they certainly foresaw these complaints from what is a portion of their total customer base) and keeping in mind that Disney STILL intends to proceed with FP+, it seems you are left with a binary choice. Go or don't.

I would also suggest that we cannot know the full impact or evolution of the FP+ system until such a time as legacy fastpass is completely phased out. I believe that the purpose of this new FP+ system is to intentionally limit the "most effective users" of FP-, to distribute the experience to the less knowledgeable users which in my mind is a net positive. I find that the "forecasted" outcomes of the impact of FP+ system on these types of threads are too steeped in bias to have any discernible value.

Now, I don't mind opinions expressed which are contrary to my own, but I DO mind how both sides of this argument seem to be defaulting to strong language/using absolutes. Sorry to glom on to your post specifically Robo, but it was the first post that I read today that stuck out to me as embodying the problem with these "debates", which seem to be occurring in adjacent echo chambers.

This has more to do with human nature than any persons failings.

EDIT: God, I use too many "quotations" around "words".

 

[momof2n2]

Sorry to state the obvious, but you have a choice in this, you simply may not like that choice. It has been gone over multiple times and should now be obvious that the FP+ system is unlikely to be palatable to those whose touring style involved multiple parks/multiple FP-. It is a statement of fact that this NEW system has less capacity for flexibility than the previous system, resulting in the more experienced WDW attendees having to scale back their level of activity.

With this in mind and giving Disney Parks the credit they deserve (ie: they certainly foresaw these complaints from what is a portion of their total customer base) and keeping in mind that Disney STILL intends to proceed with FP+, it seems you are left with a binary choice. Go or don't.

I would also suggest that we cannot know the full impact or evolution of the FP+ system until such a time as legacy fastpass is completely phased out. I believe that the purpose of this new FP+ system is to intentionally limit the "most effective users" of FP-, to distribute the experience to the less knowledgeable users which in my mind is a net positive. I find that the "forecasted" outcomes of the impact of FP+ system on these types of threads are too steeped in bias to have any discernible value.

Now, I don't mind opinions expressed which are contrary to my own, but I DO mind how both sides of this argument seem to be defaulting to strong language/using absolutes. Sorry to glom on to your post specifically Robo, but it was the first post that I read today that stuck out to me as embodying the problem with these "debates" as I see it.

Plus, these "debates" are for the most part occurring in adjacent echo chambers. This has more to do with human nature than any persons failings.

EDIT: God, I use too many "quotations" around "words".

As someone who agreed heartily with Robo's statement I also agree with many of your observations. But I can not call FP "socialism" a net positive.

I also do not think that is really their goal.

Maybe it's setting us up for purchasing FP+ which is a little too capitalism-heavy for my wallet, but it is a concept I can stomach more easily.

I strongly preferred a system that rewarded research and effort. I know that many agree with me and many disagree. I can see the points behind many that I disagree with. They've been clearly stated. I just don't abide by that style.

 

[momof2n2]

And this is the dilemma that these discussions bring up. Quest4dl is planning for an upcoming trip. So does quest4dl try to guess how it will be during their visit or rely on reports on how it went in November?

In November FP+ was an exclusive club using rules that will probably never be in place again. Over 50% of the population was excluded from using the system. Everything Disney has released to the public guarantees that all guests will eventually have access to FP+. When that happens the experience in the park will vary greatly based on crowd level.

Disney would like as many different users signed for FP+ in advance. This could lead to a shortage of FP availability weeks in advance of trips.

IF, Disney is unsuccessful with getting the word out and advanced ride reservations never become popular, then FP+ could remain a useful item. This seems like a long shot, because FP are being booked up in advance right now and are gone early in the day with a limited number of people participating.

Then there is the technology issue. Can it even support adding an additional 75000 people a day to the system.

People who typically don't ride a lot of rides, who visit because they like the atmosphere of the parks, enjoy taking in the minor attractions and shows, who don't need to ride the same rides multiple times in a day tend to love the new system, and should always like the system. They typically don't use FP because of the hassles, but with this system they have three FP in their pocket everyday and get use them on rides they typically don't get to ride. People who go in non-peak times should have a positive experience.

People are looking at this from every angle possible before investing thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in an upcoming trip. This is why I thank Laketravis for spending so much of his trip asking questions and observing. It was research designed to help project future experience based on full roll out.

I can't edit easily on this iPod but I want to emphasize the pre planning concerns.

For most of us, WDW trips are not done spur of the moment. Disney themselves is promoting excessive planning by opening ADRs 180 days out and now FP+ 60 days out. Yet they are holding the cards close to their chests. What is a vacation planner to do?

My trip is in May, worked around a cruise. I'm glued into FL on some level. But how do quest4dl and I proceed? (Rhetorical.)

We are ride and princess people. Throw in a show or two and we're set. I don't soak up atmosphere, people-watch, or enjoy "the bubble".

Reading a commentary as articulate as OPs is like water to my information parched soul. I NEED posts like his to help me determine if I'm going to sink $2200 in tix or push plan B.

 

[the_bUg]

As someone who agreed heartily with Robo's statement I also agree with many of your observations. But I can not call FP "socialism" a net positive.

I also do not think that is really their goal.

Maybe it's setting us up for purchasing FP+ which is a little too capitalism-heavy for my wallet, but it is a concept I can stomach more easily.

I strongly preferred a system that rewarded research and effort. I know that many agree with me and many disagree. I can see the points behind many that I disagree with. They've been clearly stated. I just don't abide by that style.

While socialism is not a dirty word in Canada, I don't feel that political ideology should really come in to play in the context of this debate. But, if that's the route we are going, then that's great you feel that the number of times a person rides should be based on a meritocracy, I simply disagree as we all pay even amounts for admission.

From a capitalist perspective, Disney has a vested interest in seeing as many of their guests have as positive of an experience as possible, with the goal of them returning spending future dollars. Unfortunately, if you are in the minority (have attended many times, know the ins and outs, find ways of spending more time there for "less"), this may mean you are marginalized. Whether this is an actual minority category, or a minority category as far as dollars spent, I couldn't tell you, but Disney does seem to be courting the more casual consumer than the Core. Of course there are always those that break the statistical mold.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I don't think that FP+ is socialist in any sense of the word. Socialism would be if every single person in America got a free ticket to Disneyworld.

It's capitalism, hardcore, which is what we would expect from a profit-seeking, publicly-traded company. WDW has a problem with lines. They have a bad image regarding lines, and rightfully so. There is a whole industry cropped up selling you books and apps to help you avoid lines. They are going after first-timers IMO, here in the US and around the world. If they can convince first-timers that they can avoid lines using FP+, and more first-timers book onsite vacations, then it will have done its job.

If I work backwards from what WDW is doing back to their strategy, I conclude that they are focused on increasing resort stays (FP+ testing on onsite for a long time now), increasing visits from first-timers (hence why there is little focus on new attractions) and increasing how much each person spends while there (MBs charging).

 

[Planogirl]

I don't think that FP+ is socialist in any sense of the word. Socialism would be if every single person in America got a free ticket to Disneyworld.

It's capitalism, hardcore, which is what we would expect from a profit-seeking, publicly-traded company. WDW has a problem with lines. They have a bad image regarding lines, and rightfully so. There is a whole industry cropped up selling you books and apps to help you avoid lines. They are going after first-timers IMO, here in the US and around the world. If they can convince first-timers that they can avoid lines using FP+, and more first-timers book onsite vacations, then it will have done its job.

If I work backwards from what WDW is doing back to their strategy, I conclude that they are focused on increasing resort stays (FP+ testing on onsite for a long time now), increasing visits from first-timers (hence why there is little focus on new attractions) and increasing how much each person spends while there (MBs charging).

I question whether FP+ will really do much about lines. It only provides access to three attractions and that doesn't kill much time. The inexperienced will likely spend the rest of the day in lines. Now you could argue that access to three is better than access to none however I would think that the overriding impression will still be that going to WDW means standing in lines. Plus will the inexperienced pick the right attractions? They will still tend to gravitate to the popular rides but will they know enough to pick those ahead of time? If they choose things such as Stitch and Imagination, have they really gained much?

I see it as a situation where the experienced has lost something and the inexperienced who don't research haven't gained a whole lot. Of course, it could all change and we could all be wrong but so far I see it all as a net loss.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I question whether FP+ will really do much about lines. It only provides access to three attractions and that doesn't kill much time. The inexperienced will likely spend the rest of the day in lines. Now you could argue that access to three is better than access to none however I would think that the overriding impression will still be that going to WDW means standing in lines. Plus will the inexperienced pick the right attractions? They will still tend to gravitate to the popular rides but will they know enough to pick those ahead of time? If they choose things such as Stitch and Imagination, have they really gained much?

I see it as a situation where the experienced has lost something and the inexperienced who don't research haven't gained a whole lot. Of course, it could all change and we could all be wrong but so far I see it all as a net loss.

I think when it was untiered there was a potential gain for many, even for the inexperienced and the lazy (including myself) Now that they seem to be moving towards tiers...I just don't know. If they tier MK, that will be a huge loss and 3 is still not enough there, for anyone, first-timer or not.

Regardless, I'm actually even more cynical about their strategy at this point...I think it's a way to try to get more first-timers to book onsite vacation packages "Don't worry about the lines! Prebook from home!" It doesn't really matter what the reality is once they get there.

 

[ktlm]

1. Comfort in knowing that rides you like (but no more than 3, all in one park, and no repeats) are already reserved two months in advance.

Uh- make that no more than 1. With the tiers, the 2nd tier are nothing you would ever need a FP for in the first place unless you are there Christmas or Spring Break. So, you are now basically limited to 1 FP per day.


Excellent analysis OP- it is very similar to what we observed in October. I'm pretty sure the CMs are being told to hype FP+ for all it is worth, and to meet any and all criticism by telling people how great it is and acting surprised that it would be criticized. I can recall a month or two after Duffy came out and I was talking to a sweet senior citizen lady CM about what a marketing ploy it was as my then 4 or 5 year old was begging for not only the bear (which we had bought), but every single outfit throughout WS and I recall her whispering to me "Yep- don't get me started on that bear. I can't tell you what I really think about that bear and all the clothes they want kids to beg for. We've been ordered to tell you how great he and all his stuff are no matter what you tell us you think or what we really think!" (Duffy has grown on me since then because he has gone everywhere with us for 3 years and has quite a wardrobe).

 

[mesaboy2]

Uh- make that no more than 1. With the tiers, the 2nd tier are nothing you would ever need a FP for in the first place unless you are there Christmas or Spring Break. So, you are now basically limited to 1 FP per day.

I was trying to accentuate the positive at a point in this thread where I was one of the nasty anti-FP+ people. (And probably still am.)

And what if my favorite attractions are Illuminations, Captain EO, and SSE? I'm golden!

 

[ktlm]

Extrapolating from the directives not to judge FP+ until after using FP+...

We don't just have to "know how FP+ works" AFTER we use it.
Why?

Because we are supposed to BOOK IT... BEFORE we actually use it.
Starting as early as 60 days before we use it.
To do that, we need to either research the attraction lines and FP+ or have experience with the attractions and/or FP+ and/or FP-.

I think they are banking on newbies NOT doing their research. That is how the system works best without overrunning FP+ on the typically crowded rides. There's a reason that FP+s are available for things like Small World and Journey into Imagination. They are hoping that people who don't know any better throw them on their list and book FP+ for them. They need people to waste their choices on things they don't need them for. (Come to think of it- maybe that is why trying to change anything on MDE is near impossible in the parks - maybe it isn't such an accident ---- AND I have used the system/FP+ for 9 days so I do have personal experience with it!).