2020 Point Charts

But availability doesn't equal demand. I tend to believe the reallocation is in response to the POS mandate they even out demand by reallocating, if that's the case AND reason it really doesn't matter.

I disagree. Availability and the lack of availability is a good way of measuring demand. Rooms that book at 11 months have high demand. Rooms that book at 1 month have lower demand.

How would you measure demand?

I certainly would not measure demand just based on what people look for online. Too many people are simply playing around see what is out there without having any intention of booking.
 
Availability doesn't equal demand - but it does show the trend. If studios are completely booked at 10 months and 1-BDs are still available at 4 months, it COULD just be that there is demand for ONE less 1-BD than studios. However, in reality that piece of data would tell us that the studios are in higher demand since people feel the need to get them booked further in advance.

Let's see if we can use the charts to get a better feel for true demand.

An example from my availability charts - Wilderness lodge - Boulder Ridge comparison of Studios and 1-bedrooms. I have included the studio / 1-BD as well as the somewhat limited 2-BD data we have developed to date in the tables below.


View attachment 375067 View attachment 375068 View attachment 375071
Even with only about 1/3 of the data on complete, it's pretty fair to say that the order of availability is STUDIO < 2-BD < 1-BD. Yes, the 2-BD data is limited, but the trend is already becoming apparent.
But the only way to assess demand would be if we knew exactly how many rooms are being used in each of the three categories. (If you have 1000 rooms in one category and 20 rooms in another, the one with 1000 rooms could have 999 rooms booked before the 20, and the 1000 room category would have greater demand.

Wilderness Lodge has 20 dedicated studios, 27 dedicated 1-Bedrooms, 45 2-BD lock-offs that can be split, and 44 dedicated 2-BD.
So in theory this COULD be as high as 65 studios, 72 1-BD, and 44 2-BD.
The biggest question mark in assessing DEMAND based on availability is in knowing how many 2-BD book as studio/1-BD. Since members could in theory ALWAYS pick the 2-BD lock-offs ahead of the 2-BD dedicated when booking, you could have these disappear quicker for THAT reason as opposed to being studio.

So - for the sake of argument - I am going to be rather generous to the 2-BD renters and say that HALF of the dedicated 2-BD book as 2-BD. (Or let's say 23 are split, and 22 stay as 2-BD. The data below says this is a generous thing to do, but of we choose this it says we have on any given week:
43 studios
50 1-BDs
66 2-BDs (22 lock-offs, 44 dedicated)

So again, I'll point out that if only HALF the lock-offs book as studios, that means their are significantly MORE 2-BDs than either studios OR 1-BDs.


But in the scenario above - with 43 studios always being FIRST as the charts show - there are MORE 2-BDs then there are 1-BDs.
Yet the charts STILL show that 2-BDs are GONE before 1-BDs, even though there are more of them.

So that simple fact - MORE 2-BDs are gone FIRST, and FEWER 1-BDs are gone LATER, tells us without any doubt that 2-BDs are in higher demand than 1-BDs. This scenario breaks the argument that 1-BD points needed to be raised because demand there is higher than 2-BDs.

The only way to possibly make the data go the other way - that 1-BDs could be more in demand than 2-BDs is there would have to be MORE 1-BD availability than 2-BDs.
So let's look at a much farther scenario - that 90% of the 2-BD lock-offs go to studios.

Now we have
60 studios
67 1-BDs
49 2-BDs (5 lockoffs, 44 dedicated)


Now, in THIS scenario - one could make the argument that 1-BDs don't have a higher demand, they just have a higher availability, and it also would match the charts:
1) The studios book up much faster than the 1-BDs and 2-BDs.
2) The 2-BDs book second, but there aren't as many available.
3) 1-BDs are last to book not because they are not as popular as 2-BDs, but because there are more available.

This is the ONLY way to make what Disney did make sense - it says that the DEMAND for studios and 1-bedrooms are higher - so we're going to make them both more expensive and 2-BDs less expensive.


But BOTH scenarios have no logic behind them when it comes to raising the 1-BD points and lowering the 2-BD points:

Scenario A: 2-BDs are in higher demand than 1-BDs, so we are going to raise points on studios and 1-BDs and lower them on 2-BDs.
Scenario B: 1-BDs are actually in higher demand than 2-BDs since there is more of them available - so we are going to raise points on studios and 1-BDs and lower them on 2-BDs. So we are going to drive more people to the room size in the least demand.


I spent way too long on this - because I'm just trying to grasp a really good argument for raising points on both studios and 1-BDS in a world with many rooms built as lock-offs, and it just never comes out making sense. There's no scenario I can come with where raising the 1-BD portion of the lock-off premium really is beneficial to members. (Studios yes...both studios and 1-BDs, no.)
No question that studios go before 2 BR before 1 BR. We all agree studios are most in demand, but if the demand for 2 BR is sufficient to warrant a change, there are only 2 was within DVC to affect that situation. One is to increase the 1 BR relative to the 2 BR and the other to simply block the 2 BR so that only a portion are available as smaller villas. From what I've seen it doesn't appear the current system will allow that as currently set up. What you've done just shows what we already know, that the relative demand. But it doesn't show the total demand. One of my other timeshares shows you have many of each type are available when you search online.

I disagree. Availability and the lack of availability is a good way of measuring demand. Rooms that book at 11 months have high demand. Rooms that book at 1 month have lower demand.

How would you measure demand?

I certainly would not measure demand just based on what people look for online. Too many people are simply playing around see what is out there without having any intention of booking.
I would measure demand based on the total volume of requests including online, wait lists and phone calls plus I would use survey's. I would also look at volume and speed of booking and when the last unit goes of each over time. They also have to look at this from an overall perspective so it might be more applicable to one resort over another but they still have to average out their approach. DVCMC could put some of this to bed by just being more forthright, they're only hurting themselves by not going so IMO.
 
No question that studios go before 2 BR before 1 BR. We all agree studios are most in demand, but if the demand for 2 BR is sufficient to warrant a change, there are only 2 was within DVC to affect that situation. One is to increase the 1 BR relative to the 2 BR and the other to simply block the 2 BR so that only a portion are available as smaller villas. .

That ignores seasons. Demand of units also varies over seasons - sometimes greatly - and are available for use in reallocations.
 
That ignores seasons. Demand of units also varies over seasons - sometimes greatly - and are available for use in reallocations.
Not ignoring it, we still don't have the actual volume of demand data which one would need to make a truly informed decision.
 


We both agree on this.

I think a lot of us agree on this. They may have a pretty good reason for all this - and if they said it, most of us will be satisfied. (They'll never satisfy anyone.)
This is a theme with DVC, they re reactive rather than proactive. I'll again reference the valet parking and a couple of AKV refurbishments where they had to move people. Personally I think most here would still not be satisfied but their level of upset would be a little less. They could also give far more explanation without giving out proprietary information or information a competitor could use against them.
 


Oh by the way - this was an OBVIOUS fallout of the overpricing of the bungalows. I would have a hard time tracking down one my posts, but I predicted this several times in the early days of the Poly being for sale. As soon as they had trouble filling the bungalows on points, they would HAVE to re-allocate at this resort, and the fallout would be points going up for all the studios. What I wouldn't have predicted is them doing something similar everywhere.

And your sound advice gave us 2nd thoughts and stop us from buying there.. thank you!
 
Oh by the way - this was an OBVIOUS fallout of the overpricing of the bungalows. I would have a hard time tracking down one my posts, but I predicted this several times in the early days of the Poly being for sale. As soon as they had trouble filling the bungalows on points, they would HAVE to re-allocate at this resort, and the fallout would be points going up for all the studios. What I wouldn't have predicted is them doing something similar everywhere.
Perhaps one of these?

https://www.disboards.com/threads/pvb-points-chart.3366939/page-8#post-52894474

https://www.disboards.com/threads/pvb-points-chart.3366939/page-10#post-52900528
 
As I was updating our website and putting in the new 2020 points chart costs, it definitely appears Disney has raised the costs of the Studio and One Bedrooms significantly and only slightly reduced the cost of the 2 and 3 bedroom villas. I plan to look into this further and see if the math adds up, but on the surface it does not seem right?
 
As I was updating our website and putting in the new 2020 points chart costs, it definitely appears Disney has raised the costs of the Studio and One Bedrooms significantly and only slightly reduced the cost of the 2 and 3 bedroom villas. I plan to look into this further and see if the math adds up, but on the surface it does not seem right?
Yes. There are many pages of posts discussing this issue. DVC has blown away the restrictions on raising points without a corresponding decrease elsewhere. They are interpreting the language about balancing increases with reductions as NOT APPLICABLE to Studios and 1 Bedrooms. These can now be raised at will, up to 20% per year. They justify this by saying there was always a lockoff premium, so Studios and 1 BRs never counted in the calculation of total points. Very shady. In the VGF POS they made this explicit, but nobody knew what it meant, because the guides were still telling people a reallocation would balance. Now, five years later, they are doing the unlimited reallocations for VGF but also applying it to all resorts with lockoffs, since they can modify the terms in your contract at will.
 
As I was updating our website and putting in the new 2020 points chart costs, it definitely appears Disney has raised the costs of the Studio and One Bedrooms significantly and only slightly reduced the cost of the 2 and 3 bedroom villas. I plan to look into this further and see if the math adds up, but on the surface it does not seem right?

It definitely does NOT add up. This is b/c of the "Lock-off" premium that allows them to only count studios/1BRs, for point reallocation purposes, as 2BRs. This effectively means they can increase studios and 1BRs for every view, for every season (with the exception of the lowest point season, since they still have to provide at least one day at a maximum rate specified in the POS), WITHOUT AFFECTING THE TOTAL POINTS.

The top chart is what effectively happened assuming 100% studios get booked and 0% 2BR lock-offs are booked (admittedly, this won't happen all the time, but it is the more likely scenario). The second chart shows how Disney "technically" rebalanced the rooms overall. Since the studios and 1BRs are not counted, their points are technically zero. As you can see -- it is quite drastic. I think SSR is even worse, although I haven't run the numbers there since I don't have points at that location.


upload_2019-1-10_12-4-46-png.374708


They went from now needing 2.63 million points to reserve the hotel to about 2.70 million points. This results in Disney getting access to about 70,000 points worth of rooms that will go unreserved by DVC members (b/c there are no points to actually reserve them since points can't be retroactively created). Disney can then rent out those rooms for cash via CRO and since breakage paid back to the system is already maxed out, that money goes straight into Disney's pockets.
 
As I was updating our website and putting in the new 2020 points chart costs, it definitely appears Disney has raised the costs of the Studio and One Bedrooms significantly and only slightly reduced the cost of the 2 and 3 bedroom villas. I plan to look into this further and see if the math adds up, but on the surface it does not seem right?
DVC intention is that an entire resort must remain in balance. So if you take the cost for all the dedicated units for an entire year every point chart should come to the same number. This does occur in each of the resorts I've checked (BLT, CCV, BWV, BCV, AKV, and VGF). The contention others are raising is certain resorts do not have dedicated studios or 1 bedrooms so their point costs do not matter in the total points required to book the entire resort (since lockoffs count as 2 bedrooms in this exercise).

As for DVC I was confirmed by them that their intention is that the reallocations are not just seasonal but also across Vacation Home Types.
 
As I was updating our website and putting in the new 2020 points chart costs, it definitely appears Disney has raised the costs of the Studio and One Bedrooms significantly and only slightly reduced the cost of the 2 and 3 bedroom villas. I plan to look into this further and see if the math adds up, but on the surface it does not seem right?
Jerry, the calculations for number of points and reallocation are done based on all lockoff's as a full villa. This is the way the FL statutes read and as I read it, the way the POS reads. It won't add up if you break them apart but it didn't before the reallocation either.
 
The lock-off are an interesting dynamic. Given the way points were allocated (based on 2BR as a whole) renting out the Studios and 1BRs separately, there are rooms that will not be able to be rented by members because that would require more points that what are available.

However, it DVC has used the studios and 1BRs to determine the points that are allocated that would open up a different situation. For every 2BR that is booked, that means there will be points that cannot be used. Let's say a studio has a point value of 15, a 1br of 34 and a 2br of 42. If the 2br is booked, there are going to be 7 points that cannot be used. To me, this is a bigger issue than having too many rooms.
 
The lock-off are an interesting dynamic. Given the way points were allocated (based on 2BR as a whole) renting out the Studios and 1BRs separately, there are rooms that will not be able to be rented by members because that would require more points that what are available.

However, it DVC has used the studios and 1BRs to determine the points that are allocated that would open up a different situation. For every 2BR that is booked, that means there will be points that cannot be used. Let's say a studio has a point value of 15, a 1br of 34 and a 2br of 42. If the 2br is booked, there are going to be 7 points that cannot be used. To me, this is a bigger issue than having too many rooms.
I word it a different way. There are seven points that Disney has to reserve rooms for cash. If this happens twice, that is 14 points they no longer need to keep available to meet the contractual obligation to members. And 1/3 of the 42 point allocation for a 2BR is also 14 points. Disney can now at any booking window let someone book a studio for cash. They have not taken any "availability" from members. The members turned in 15+15+34+34 points (98 points) and they consumed 42+42+14 points out of inventory (98 points), all is good.
 
The lock-off are an interesting dynamic. Given the way points were allocated (based on 2BR as a whole) renting out the Studios and 1BRs separately, there are rooms that will not be able to be rented by members because that would require more points that what are available.

However, it DVC has used the studios and 1BRs to determine the points that are allocated that would open up a different situation. For every 2BR that is booked, that means there will be points that cannot be used. Let's say a studio has a point value of 15, a 1br of 34 and a 2br of 42. If the 2br is booked, there are going to be 7 points that cannot be used. To me, this is a bigger issue than having too many rooms.

I'm pretty sure we've already concluded that there is nothing inherently wrong with the lock-off premium in and of itself. And I think we all agree that the lock-offs have to be treated as 2BRs for point calculations as you said -- that might even be in the statutes -- I can't recall. It's definitely in the VGF POS. As such, I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is increasing the lock-off premium when the use demand for the 1BRs does not seem to require it. Had they just increased the studios and left 1BRs alone, I probably wouldn't be that mad about it, since I think we can all agree that studio demand needs to be addressed. I would still be a little concerned about the fact that they could seemingly increase the already established Lock-Off premium -- but I could at least see their point with respect to demand.
 
I'm pretty sure we've already concluded that there is nothing inherently wrong with the lock-off premium in and of itself. And I think we all agree that the lock-offs have to be treated as 2BRs for point calculations as you said -- that might even be in the statutes -- I can't recall. It's definitely in the VGF POS. As such, I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is increasing the lock-off premium when the use demand for the 1BRs does not seem to require it. Had they just increased the studios and left 1BRs alone, I probably wouldn't be that mad about it, since I think we can all agree that studio demand needs to be addressed. I would still be a little concerned about the fact that they could seemingly increase the already established Lock-Off premium -- but I could at least see their point with respect to demand.


As a fortunate side effect, the point reallocation does seem to clearly benefit Disney. How it benefits members is much harder to understand.
 

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