50 MW Solar Farm at WDW

[hertamaniac]

http://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories...ek-10-times-larger-than-epcots-hidden-mickey/

I just wonder if some/all of the output will be directly grid tied and/or stored in an energy bank.

 

[Minnesota!]

Dang, that is HUGE! I love seeing these kinds of investments by big corporations..

 

[LYSE]

According to the article it will provide power to the immediate surrounding district so grid tie would be yes.

I imagine Disney will then receive credit for energy produced ...with so much power I wonder what kind of offset that will be.

 

[jknezek]

Interesting. An old rule of thumb was 1MW could power 1000 houses. I later learned not all MWs are created equal, some apparently are harder to generate and solar falls in that category, so a MW of solar power supposedly powers between 100 and 300 houses depending on weather, percent of sunshine, and a pile of other factors.

I saw an old article from 2003 that peak demand from WDW, or more specifically Reedy Creek, was about 190MW. That was peak demand, not average demand, but it's an interesting starting point. Assuming peak demand is about 25% higher than average demand, average demand would be around 142.5MW. Of course as of an award WDW won in 2013, they had reduced the power demand by 10-15% from base level 2016, so they could be down to an average demand around 125MW. Fun stuff, but the upshot is this field could generate more than 1/3 of WDW's average demand, or it could be only about 1/12th depending on the efficiency of the solar generation.

Which is all very interesting. When using the old rule of thumb it is assumed a field that size could light about 50,000 homes or, using the solar rule of thumb, about 5,000-15,000 homes. It's a lot of energy regardless, but WDW is a massive energy user. I believe at one time they even had a clause in Reedy Creek's deal with the state to have the ability to build their own nuclear plant to cover their power needs.

 

[hertamaniac]

Dang, that is HUGE! I love seeing these kinds of investments by big corporations..

Especially in "The Sunshine State".

 

[hertamaniac]

According to the article it will provide power to the immediate surrounding district so grid tie would be yes.

I imagine Disney will then receive credit for energy produced ...with so much power I wonder what kind of offset that will be.

I tend to agree in that it will, in some portion, provide peak shavings and help flatten the duck curve. But, I also can see them sizing the system as a larger UPS in the event of fluctuations, etc.

 

[hertamaniac]

Interesting. An old rule of thumb was 1MW could power 1000 houses. I later learned not all MWs are created equal, some apparently are harder to generate and solar falls in that category, so a MW of solar power supposedly powers between 100 and 300 houses depending on weather, percent of sunshine, and a pile of other factors.

I saw an old article from 2003 that peak demand from WDW, or more specifically Reedy Creek, was about 190MW. That was peak demand, not average demand, but it's an interesting starting point. Assuming peak demand is about 25% higher than average demand, average demand would be around 142.5MW. Of course as of an award WDW won in 2013, they had reduced the power demand by 10-15% from base level 2016, so they could be down to an average demand around 125MW. Fun stuff, but the upshot is this field could generate more than 1/3 of WDW's average demand, or it could be only about 1/12th depending on the efficiency of the solar generation.

Which is all very interesting. When using the old rule of thumb it is assumed a field that size could light about 50,000 homes or, using the solar rule of thumb, about 5,000-15,000 homes. It's a lot of energy regardless, but WDW is a massive energy user. I believe at one time they even had a clause in Reedy Creek's deal with the state to have the ability to build their own nuclear plant to cover their power needs.

Interesting background. MW delivery and charge rate acceptance can easily be a part of their equation. When I was in CA, I got a tour of UCSD's campus; it was astonishing how many MW's were being harvested by solar and how the net savings on their electrical bill to San Diego Gas & Electric was ~$800K/month! What was really innovative is they were able to use software algorithms and histograms to predict the savings. Then, they used an active tracking system (solar trackers) for the panels so that they were maximizing the photons/sun to the panels.

Just when I came away astonished, they threw in their CPV panels (concentrated photovoltaic). The idea of focusing optically, without overheating, the cells. They were experimenting with various heat sinks and liquid cooling to mitigate the heat build-up.

So, I'm keeping a keen eye on this solar farm to see how they will deploy the technology.

 

[ShadeDK]

You can find annual reports for the electric (and other utility) systems on Reedy Creek Improvement District's website - the most recent one is for 2015. Based on the figures in the 2015 annual report, peak demand per month in 2015 was averaging around 170-180MW. Hard to say whether that number is higher or lower now, but it should be in the same ballpark. If so, a 50MW solar farm could put a large dent in the amount of power needed from outside electric providers. Based on the same report, RCUC only generates about 20-30% of the electricity used in the district - with the remaining amount of electric power (70-80%) purchased through numerous lease agreements with other power companies in Florida.

 

[jade1]

That's a lot more power than I thought.

The current Mickey was said to be enough for Splash Mountain.

So this is enough for 10 Splash Mountains.

Not sure how that is 1/3 of all of Walt Disney World, but maybe?

Still always good to see.

 

[jknezek]

That's a lot more power than I thought.

The current Mickey was said to be enough for Splash Mountain.

So this is enough for 10 Splash Mountains.

Not sure how that is 1/3 of all of Walt Disney World, but maybe?

Still always good to see.

It's not. That's the point. Solar Mickey is rated at 5 MW and that is the max. Conditions have to be perfect to hit that rate. It's fairly easy to get near perfect in controlled plants like coal, oil and natural gas, but the amount of perfect for a solar farm is both limited to a small possible time of the day and the ambient environment on top. The odds of solar Mickey hitting 5 MW for more than an hour a day are pretty much 0. So the degradation from max is steep, as it is with all solar. Hence why are 5MW solar plant cannot light anywhere near as many houses as a 5MW nat gas plant. Probably better for the environment though.

 

[jade1]

It's not. That's the point. Solar Mickey is rated at 5 MW and that is the max. Conditions have to be perfect to hit that rate. It's fairly easy to get near perfect in controlled plants like coal, oil and natural gas, but the amount of perfect for a solar farm is both limited to a small possible time of the day and the ambient environment on top. The odds of solar Mickey hitting 5 MW for more than an hour a day are pretty much 0. So the degradation from max is steep, as it is with all solar. Hence why are 5MW solar plant cannot light anywhere near as many houses as a 5MW nat gas plant. Probably better for the environment though.

Ah OK that makes more sense, I couldn't fathom how it could power even close to 1/3.

Esp through the night when it's off and still 80 degrees and humid, the amount of AC alone must be staggering down there.

 

[hertamaniac]

Esp through the night when it's off and still 80 degrees and humid, the amount of AC alone must be staggering down there.

That's where an energy storage system could assist if it is designed/sized as part of this solar farm.

 

[jade1]

That's where an energy storage system could assist if it is designed/sized as part of this solar farm.

No doubt, but it sounds like the day time production will be used up very quickly.

I wonder how large of a system really would cover all of WDW. Unrealistic of course, more just curious.

 

[jknezek]

No doubt, but it sounds like the day time production will be used up very quickly.

I wonder how large of a system really would cover all of WDW. Unrealistic of course, more just curious.

If you don't mind back of the envelope numbers you can guess pretty well. Assume a gas plant is 95% efficient to max rated MW. WDW needs about 170MW for max draw. So they need a gas plant rated at 178.5MW. If solar is 25% of max rated in Orlando on average, you need 680MW of rmax rated generat

No doubt, but it sounds like the day time production will be used up very quickly.

I wonder how large of a system really would cover all of WDW. Unrealistic of course, more just curious.

You'd need a lot more data. You need average and max usage data for every hour of every day of the year. This data, combined with the expected average generation rate for every hour of every day of the year would tell you how much excess you'd need to generate at the best times to fund the battery banks to get you through the rest of the day. Then you need to know the efficiency of the battery system and plan out how to stay within whatever emergency call rate you have for spooling up the back up source. It's immensely complex data driven analysis depending on how you run the probabilities. It is much simpler not to bother and just build to what you calculate is the efficiency point between project cost and power savings and let the grid fill in the rest. Plus, despite the name "Sunshine State", the regularity of rain and cloud cover during the best times of the day actually make Florida only a mediocre solar state. Deserts work much better than tropics.

 

[disneynutz]

Tax incentive?

Bill

 

[XXRAINMANX]

Dang, that is HUGE! I love seeing these kinds of investments by big corporations..

I would love to see them utilize the roofs of their buildings for solar. I get that it's not very efficient and having to reinforce roofs and updating electrical would make this unfeasible at best, I still think it would be a step in the right direction if any new buildings had solar components.

 

[jade1]

If you don't mind back of the envelope numbers you can guess pretty well. Assume a gas plant is 95% efficient to max rated MW. WDW needs about 170MW for max draw. So they need a gas plant rated at 178.5MW. If solar is 25% of max rated in Orlando on average, you need 680MW of rmax rated generat

You'd need a lot more data. You need average and max usage data for every hour of every day of the year. This data, combined with the expected average generation rate for every hour of every day of the year would tell you how much excess you'd need to generate at the best times to fund the battery banks to get you through the rest of the day. Then you need to know the efficiency of the battery system and plan out how to stay within whatever emergency call rate you have for spooling up the back up source. It's immensely complex data driven analysis depending on how you run the probabilities. It is much simpler not to bother and just build to what you calculate is the efficiency point between project cost and power savings and let the grid fill in the rest. Plus, despite the name "Sunshine State", the regularity of rain and cloud cover during the best times of the day actually make Florida only a mediocre solar state. Deserts work much better than tropics.

Great info. Sounds like 10 more of these would really help a lot.

 

[jade1]

I would love to see them utilize the roofs of their buildings for solar. I get that it's not very efficient and having to reinforce roofs and updating electrical would make this unfeasible at best, I still think it would be a step in the right direction if any new buildings had solar components.

Yea the Tesla shingles would be interesting down there.

 

[jknezek]

Great info. Sounds like 10 more of these would really help a lot.

This one will be 270 acres. I get WDW has plenty of land, but that would make a dent. Here's the perspective, Magic Kingdom is 107 acres, EPCOT is 300 acres, DHS is 135 acres, and Animal Kingdom is a massive 580 acres. About 4 of these massive solar installations would equal the total size of all 4 parks. The Solar Mickey is 22 acres I believe, so they are planning to have solar panels covering an area the size of EPCOT as it is.

Reedy Creek Improvement District is about 38 square miles (that may be an old number. It's likely Disney has sold off some fraction of that). That equals 24,320 acres. Putting 10 of these installations out there would cover more than 10% of the total land. I don't know how much of the rest of Reedy Creek is developed, but keep in mind Fort Wilderness is 750 acres by itself. The various lakes eat up a huge amount of space. Art and Pop are over 200 acres together if you count Hourglass Lake (I think, can't quite remember).

In other words, there is still a lot of land, but places to hide almost 3000 acres, or about 5 square miles, of solar farm probably wouldn't be real easy to find. Solar is a huge up and coming technology. But it still requires a massive amount of land to really make a difference.

 

[hakepb]

I wouldn’t mind it if my car was parked in the “shade” under some solar panels.

Have there been any large solar installations above parking areas?