5th Gate at WDW

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Any new true theme park is going to draw a massive crowd for a while. Just on the basis of being new. If Universal dumps the $5B+ into a new park to build something worth having, people will be all over it for 5 years. The problem becomes what happens after 5 years. Building something new is fun and exciting, maintaining it is expensive, necessary, drudgery. See EPCOT and Disney Studios, 1990-2015.

I think Universal was on to something with their "when your vacations grow up" campaign. Not that true Disney fans believe, or that I believe myself, but many, many people think Disney is for toddlers through tweens while Universal is for tweens through becoming parents. If Universal builds another park, which seems incredibly likely, they have to play to this theme. Because there are simply too many parks in Orlando already for an American vacation. You really don't want people to split vacations, you want to capture the whole vacation.

Universal's best chance to do that is to be a highly themed coaster and thrill park. There isn't another Harry Potter out there right now to grab kids from Disney. So don't try. Do what you advertise. Don't be screens and simulators. Be thrills and spills and PG13 type rides, shows, restaurants.

As a coach, I tell people all the time that when you are facing the biggest, baddest team in the league, you can't beat them by doing what they do. You have to find a way around them. Disney's refusal to build true thrills and spills coasters, something I have no problem with, is also a competitive weakness. Take advantage of it and do something Disney doesn't. Don't try and out Disney Disney. It's not going to work.

Jkeznek...brilliant post!

Seriously, one of the most insightful and succinct I've ever read on these boards.
 


Jknezek is absolutely right. Never try to beat the leader at what they do best. Do what they dont do. And Universal needs to do that and not try to outdisney at Disney. I like both Disney and Universal for what they are but Universal does have to capitalize on their leaning to Upper teens/young adults and create a park similar to a cedar point but with more theming. Universal is in the position of not being as good as built right now as a real thrill park ( Cedar Point, Carowinds, Dollywood, BG Williamsburg, Six Flags great America, etc.) or as Disney is at doing Disney. But the biggest competitors in the "thrill" vein of parks is nowhere close to their area of draw. BG Tampa pales in comparison to BG Williamsburg and while Sea World and BG Tampa both have "thrill" rides. It is not their focus. And Disney is not going to build a "thrill" park. They are going to remain in the business of building Disney family theme parks ( and expanding current ones) in that manner. Some attractions for only a certain crowd but most for families and a few thrill rides which are more themed and feel than actual thrill. So the one thing Universal can do to separate themselves and be "the only kid on the block" so to speak in Central Florida,,is a highly themed thrill park. If they do that, it gives them a niche because Disney wont do that and Noone else will challenge them. Then maybe they can rethink how poorly the current parks are set up. I liek specific things at each park but overall, the parks are dull, not very clean, and have too much dead space with no real flow to the theming. It really is more like an amusement park than a theme park in some ways. So build a new park in a niche Disney wont go to and then fix the existing parks in a similar manner. As you said, separate yourselves because trying to walk the line int he middle of the road is a no win situation.
 
I disagree. I don't think that SW warrants it own theme park. I may be in the minority here, but there are still plenty of ppl out there who have no interest in SW. I think making a whole park specific to SW would be to much. That would potentially be a park that some people would have no interest in buying a ticket for or visiting. But by making it just a land in HS I will still buy a ticket to see everything else @ HS, but i have no desire to enter GE. Harry Potter didn't get its own whole park in Universal.

I agree SW doesn't need a full park
 


I agree that it will probably be some time before a fifth gate is opened. Do I think that a fifth gate needs to be opened? Yes I certainly do. I have been visiting WDW for over 38 years. We visited often, especially when new parks were opened. We stayed longer and visited more often because of that. We eventually became DVC members and still visit frequently. When my kids were younger, they were very happy with all of the offerings of WDW. As teenagers, they are now interested in going to both Universal and WDW. The attraction to Universal is the more aggressive roller coasters that is quite exciting for them. I actually enjoy Universal as well. Front of the line is a superior product. If I was a Disney executive, I would be looking for a way to capture the market of older teenagers and young adults. A fifth park specifically tailored to this group would be successful. I know personally that my family would spend more time on property and probably even purchase more points from DVC. When I look back on my personal history of visits between age 21-32, I did not visit a park once. When my kids cane along, our visits increased. I am willing to bet that there are many other people with similar visit history. With over 10 years of absence, that is a lot of market share for Disney to capture. A fifth park with themed attractions focused on older guests would no doubt be successful. Disney needs to pursue this option in order to keep customers for life.
 
I agree that it will probably be some time before a fifth gate is opened. Do I think that a fifth gate needs to be opened? Yes I certainly do. I have been visiting WDW for over 38 years. We visited often, especially when new parks were opened. We stayed longer and visited more often because of that. We eventually became DVC members and still visit frequently. When my kids were younger, they were very happy with all of the offerings of WDW. As teenagers, they are now interested in going to both Universal and WDW. The attraction to Universal is the more aggressive roller coasters that is quite exciting for them. I actually enjoy Universal as well. Front of the line is a superior product. If I was a Disney executive, I would be looking for a way to capture the market of older teenagers and young adults. A fifth park specifically tailored to this group would be successful. I know personally that my family would spend more time on property and probably even purchase more points from DVC. When I look back on my personal history of visits between age 21-32, I did not visit a park once. When my kids cane along, our visits increased. I am willing to bet that there are many other people with similar visit history. With over 10 years of absence, that is a lot of market share for Disney to capture. A fifth park with themed attractions focused on older guests would no doubt be successful. Disney needs to pursue this option in order to keep customers for life.

If you like aggressive coasters be sure to try out Cedar Point. Universal's coasters don't come anywhere close to the intensity those ones have, and Cedar Point is pretty cheap. I paid $100 total per person for Park admission and line skipping last time I went.

I would love if Disney tried out a thrill park. There really aren't any heavily themed thrill parks.
 
Where would they put a third gate in Anaheim? A SHIELD helicarrier?
I’ve seen maps showing that they actually have enough land by re-purposing some parking lots, but would require another massive parking garage.

It seems though that Disney is content to “just” add the Star Wars and Superhero lands to the existing parks.
 
Never say never.

That being said, Disney will NEVER build a 5th theme park at WDW. Let's go through the logic from a business perspective:

Why would they build a 5th theme park?
Because they could make money off of it, by increasing attendance

Why can't they just increase attendance at the current parks?
Because the current parks are at capacity with no more room to grow.


So there you have it. Are the current 4 parks at capacity? No. How frequently do the parks have capacity-related closures? Maybe 4 days per year? Christmas, New year's eve, new year's day, and 4th of July. And isn't that just Magic Kingdom that has closures? Do the other 3 parks ever have phased closures?

So, in my opinion, before Disney would build a 5th park they'd
a) see phased closures for at least 2 of the parks at least 10% of the year (35 days)
b) have expanded the parks as much as feasible (open space that already exists inside the park boundaries)

At that point Disney *may* consider a 5th park but, from a business perspective, I'd probably still hold off. But seriously, a & b will never happen. There is so much open space at Epcot and Animal Kingdom. There is even open space at Magic Kingdom, assuming they repurpose currently under-utilized space (they can get rid of the autotopia and build like 3 attractions in that space).

I know people have said build a intense-coaster themed park that would attract the 17-30 demographic and that would answer my above points about "increasing attendance" because you'd have people going to WDW who wouldn't go without the intense coasters. But I personally don't think that market is very big. And they especially don't have the disposable income Disney wants. They don't want single 25 year olds. They want 40 year olds with 10 year old kids who make $100k per year. So just because you *can* attract more customers doesn't mean they're the right customers. As every woman knows, dressing in a short skirt will attract men, but are you attracting the *right* type of men?

So, again, they will NEVER build a 5th theme park.
 
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Never say never.

That being said, Disney will NEVER build a 5th theme park at WDW. Let's go through the logic from a business perspective:

Why would they build a 5th theme park?
Because they could make money off of it, by increasing attendance

Why can't they just increase attendance at the current parks?
Because the current parks are at capacity with no more room to grow.


So there you have it. Are the current 4 parks at capacity? No. How frequently do the parks have capacity-related closures? Maybe 4 days per year? Christmas, New year's eve, new year's day, and 4th of July. And isn't that just Magic Kingdom that has closures? Do the other 3 parks ever have phased closures?

So, in my opinion, before Disney would build a 5th park they'd
a) see phased closures for at least 2 of the parks at least 10% of the year (35 days)
b) have expanded the parks as much as feasible (open space that already exists inside the park boundaries)

At that point Disney *may* consider a 5th park but, from a business perspective, I'd probably still hold off. But seriously, a & b will never happen. There is so much open space at Epcot and Animal Kingdom. There is even open space at Magic Kingdom, assuming they repurpose currently under-utilized space (they can get rid of the autotopia and build like 3 attractions in that space).

I know people have said build a intense-coaster themed park that would attract the 17-30 demographic and that would answer my above points about "increasing attendance" because you'd have people going to WDW who wouldn't go without the intense coasters. But I personally don't think that market is very big. And they especially don't have the disposable income Disney wants. They don't want single 25 year olds. They want 40 year olds with 10 year old kids who make $100k per year. So just because you *can* attract more customers doesn't mean they're the right customers. As every woman knows, dressing in a short skirt will attract men, but are you attracting the *right* type of men?

So, again, they will NEVER build a 5th theme park.
There is even considerable expansion space available in HS...behind RNR, and the are a lot of backstage areas that can be repurposed there as well.
 
Never say never.

That being said, Disney will NEVER build a 5th theme park at WDW. Let's go through the logic from a business perspective:

Why would they build a 5th theme park?
Because they could make money off of it, by increasing attendance

Why can't they just increase attendance at the current parks?
Because the current parks are at capacity with no more room to grow.


So there you have it. Are the current 4 parks at capacity? No. How frequently do the parks have capacity-related closures? Maybe 4 days per year? Christmas, New year's eve, new year's day, and 4th of July. And isn't that just Magic Kingdom that has closures? Do the other 3 parks ever have phased closures?

So, in my opinion, before Disney would build a 5th park they'd
a) see phased closures for at least 2 of the parks at least 10% of the year (35 days)
b) have expanded the parks as much as feasible (open space that already exists inside the park boundaries)

At that point Disney *may* consider a 5th park but, from a business perspective, I'd probably still hold off. But seriously, a & b will never happen. There is so much open space at Epcot and Animal Kingdom. There is even open space at Magic Kingdom, assuming they repurpose currently under-utilized space (they can get rid of the autotopia and build like 3 attractions in that space).

I know people have said build a intense-coaster themed park that would attract the 17-30 demographic and that would answer my above points about "increasing attendance" because you'd have people going to WDW who wouldn't go without the intense coasters. But I personally don't think that market is very big. And they especially don't have the disposable income Disney wants. They don't want single 25 year olds. They want 40 year olds with 10 year old kids who make $100k per year. So just because you *can* attract more customers doesn't mean they're the right customers. As every woman knows, dressing in a short skirt will attract men, but are you attracting the *right* type of men?

So, again, they will NEVER build a 5th theme park.

The demographic that you have omitted from your personal opinion is what I had mentioned earlier. There are many many families that start to change there vacation planning as there children age out of WDW. Having the fifth park with more intense attractions will solidify that customer base. Our past two trips to WDW included side trips to universal. That was over 4 days of tickets, meals, and hotel rooms that were not spent at Disney. You mention single 25 year olds. I believe that many people of this age would be attracted to a fifth Park. The huge attraction would be the fact that guests like me would still bring our older children to the parks as they transition into the paradigm that you suggest is the ideal target for Disney executives. Let’s face it, a lot of the reasons that many people return with their children is to relive the magic of their own childhoods. The fifth park could offer so many new experiences that would be a huge revenue provider. My kids used to be enjoy quick counter service meals, their tastes and interests have grown considerably. We now spend a significant amount more on top tier restaurants and activities. I think many people including executives at Disney are missing the significance that a fifth park will have.
 
While, I'm not sure adding a 5th gate Intense Thrill Park at this point would necessarily be a net plus for Disney, I DO think it would deliver QUITE a blow to Universal.
 
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