5th Park inevitable ?

[YesterDark]

I'd rather them spend the money and bring up customer service than build another park.

 

[nkosiek]

You're all missing one key aspect in all of this: the Star Wars Hotel.

Once this is successful and they learn all the lessons about setting up a themed hotel like this, then they'll start making new ones. The foot print isn't very large and it's going to require somewhere around 50-100% deluxe hotel rack rates. Just imagine a Frozen hotel, BatB hotel, Indiana Jones hotel whatever.

They don't need to build a 5th gate, if you're going to do an all-in Disney Vacation, you're going to stay at a themed hotel for 3? 4? days, experience that whole thing, then hit the parks for another 3-4 days. The hotels themselves will take crowds out of the parks and offer new experiences.

Star Wars hotel this year? Can't wait to go back and go to Beast's castle next year. Oh yeah and hit up Tron too.

I think there's something to this, but I don't think it will be the big thing you make it out to be. The SW Hotel is supposedly small, and will be VERY expensive, like the cruises. WDW is so much about the first-timer/big vacation, that I don't see those premium add-on hotels making much of a difference to crowd levels.

 

[umichigan10]

I think it serves 2 purposes

1) Perhaps it will prevent visitors from heading over to Uni for a day or two
and
2) Perhaps the crowds will lessing at each park, making visits to each more pleasant. Even September has become awful at times.

My take on those:
1. I feel like people go to uni for either the thrill rides or a specific IP (Potter). And more Disney parks wouldn’t entice them to stay anymore than they already do. There’s already a good weeks worth of park stuff to do as is.

2. I don’t think Disney management cares about the crowds that much. They see more revenue during “slower” times now and have shown they can keep raising prices and keep those crowds up.

These are just my takes though

 

[PuppyJonathan]

My take on those:
1. I feel like people go to uni for either the thrill rides or a specific IP (Potter). And more Disney parks wouldn’t entice them to stay anymore than they already do. There’s already a good weeks worth of park stuff to do as is.

To be perfectly honest if it weren’t for Potter I don’t think I’d have much desire to go back and revisit, as good as what other offerings I love there. So I guess I do fall in that bracket

 

[umichigan10]

To be perfectly honest if it weren’t for Potter I don’t think I’d have much desire to go back and revisit, as good as what other offerings I love there. So I guess I do fall in that bracket

I’ve honestly only been once and it was 6 years ago on a band trip in high school. I had a really good time in islands and thought the studios park was meh (pre diagon alley though). I’d go back but my family only does Disney, which to be honest is hard enough to do for the time we’re there

 

[PuppyJonathan]

I’ve honestly only been once and it was 6 years ago on a band trip in high school. I had a really good time in islands and thought the studios park was meh (pre diagon alley though). I’d go back but my family only does Disney, which to be honest is hard enough to do for the time we’re there

Long story that correlates to one of the points you made: One of the last two times I was at universal it was right after they started the holidays last year and for some reason islands was empty but the studios was packed. I believe the shortest wait in the studios was around 35 minutes for shrek. Waited sixty minutes with express for rip ride rockit, got in line for Fallon and noticed the line was 5 people away from filing the entrance hallway and going outside, moped and went to transformers which broke down right as I got near the front and never reopened for the night, gringotts had its express queue start out the door and the guy at the front of the hogwarts express was telling people just to walk as it was more worth the time. Ended up going back to islands where the non potter rides had only five minute waits! Not sure what to do I sat on a rock outside mythos eating popcorn and staring at the lake and the hulk going around. For some reason I was enjoying sitting on this rock just soaking it all more than I was when I was going on the rides in the studios! Maybe it was I got away from the hustle and bustle from the studios that I was enjoying this, maybe it was just being in islands taking it all but I don’t think I’ll ever forget how happy I was just doing that. Just you saying that about having a good time in the one but not the other made me want to share. Also IMHO I don’t think if you were to go now that opinion you had will change

 

[Nancyg56]

You're all missing one key aspect in all of this: the Star Wars Hotel.

Once this is successful and they learn all the lessons about setting up a themed hotel like this, then they'll start making new ones. The foot print isn't very large and it's going to require somewhere around 50-100% deluxe hotel rack rates. Just imagine a Frozen hotel, BatB hotel, Indiana Jones hotel whatever.

They don't need to build a 5th gate, if you're going to do an all-in Disney Vacation, you're going to stay at a themed hotel for 3? 4? days, experience that whole thing, then hit the parks for another 3-4 days. The hotels themselves will take crowds out of the parks and offer new experiences.

Star Wars hotel this year? Can't wait to go back and go to Beast's castle next year. Oh yeah and hit up Tron too.

I tend to agree that boutique resorts may be some of the answer for Disney. Perhaps not for the 1st time guests who want to get it all done is less than a week, but for those repeat guests who are not inclined to hit the parks all day every day. I would totally book a stay in a Beast castle, and wander around in that lovely village, perhaps dine with Gaston, chat with Belle about the library, IF teh Star Wars hotel is solid, I bet there may be another themed resort to entice a different guest and offer a different experience.

I think it serves 2 purposes

1) Perhaps it will prevent visitors from heading over to Uni for a day or two
and
2) Perhaps the crowds will lessing at each park, making visits to each more pleasant. Even September has become awful at times.

Disney is not interested in making the parks more enjoyable for guests. As far as they are concerned, filled parks equal happy guests. If they are inclined to make changes to enhance guest experiences and reduce crowding, they would do as they are finally beginning to do: update the current parks attractins that have been shuttered, and expand their current parks. A fifth gate is not going to change a sad Future World, or move people around in DHS. More attractions might.

In terms of keeping folks from Universal, I think that the folks in WDW have figured out that Universal is not a huge draw for their target market. Maybe a day or two, but not a choice of one over the other. I would love to see ALl of the Harry Potter area in Universal, however I am not going on thrill rides any longer, have no desire to spend two days in those parks, and even if I was, I cannot drag my family there with me. They won't go. I think I am in a club with a lot of others, and DIsney knows it.

I am inclined to believe Disney is going to treat the new Star Wars land as a fifth gate. Frankly, if I was planning how to increase revenue and not build another park, I would do just that: expand the current parks in a way that might justify a surcharge to enter. DIsney knows that people will pay more for an enhanced experience, just look at teh dessert parties. If someone is willing to pay $80 for a plate of dessert, a glass of champagne, and a good view of fireworks, will they pay that much for entrance into a special area? I might.

 

[umichigan10]

Long story that correlates to one of the points you made: One of the last two times I was at universal it was right after they started the holidays last year and for some reason islands was empty but the studios was packed. I believe the shortest wait in the studios was around 35 minutes for shrek. Waited sixty minutes with express for rip ride rockit, got in line for Fallon and noticed the line was 5 people away from filing the entrance hallway and going outside, moped and went to transformers which broke down right as I got near the front and never reopened for the night, gringotts had its express queue start out the door and the guy at the front of the hogwarts express was telling people just to walk as it was more worth the time. Ended up going back to islands where the non potter rides had only five minute waits! Not sure what to do I sat on a rock outside mythos eating popcorn and staring at the lake and the hulk going around. For some reason I was enjoying sitting on this rock just soaking it all more than I was when I was going on the rides in the studios! Maybe it was I got away from the hustle and bustle from the studios that I was enjoying this, maybe it was just being in islands taking it all but I don’t think I’ll ever forget how happy I was just doing that. Just you saying that about having a good time in the one but not the other made me want to share. Also IMHO I don’t think if you were to go now that opinion you had will change

I really wanna see diagon alley. I’m a big potter head so I think that’d totally blow me away. That being said most of the rest of the studios park doesn’t interest me, nor do the additions of Fallon, fast and furious, or transformers

 

[ElyseInWonderland]

I'm with a lot of the posters here; I doubt we'll see a fifth gate in the foreseeable future. One speculation I could throw out: I wonder how year-round profitable the water parks are? I could see them converting one of them into either an experience hotel (like Star Wars will be) or something like Discovery Cove (as someone previously mentioned.)

The Star Wars hotel has my wheels turning about what other IP they could turn into a resort experience!

 

[jknezek]

I'm with a lot of the posters here; I doubt we'll see a fifth gate in the foreseeable future. One speculation I could throw out: I wonder how year-round profitable the water parks are? I could see them converting one of them into either an experience hotel (like Star Wars will be) or something like Discovery Cove (as someone previously mentioned.)

The Star Wars hotel has my wheels turning about what other IP they could turn into a resort experience!

Well... part of the reason that the Star Wars hotel is going to work so well is because there is a completely immersive area of a theme park to tie it to. Right now, only Avatar really has that same type of area. So unless they are going to build a Beauty and the Beast area out back of Be Our Guest and put a hotel there, the options are kind of limited right now. EPCOT has no IP that will work, Norway isn't really Frozenland despite Maelstrom and the Akerhaus.

I'd say the best option available is to theme a land where we assume they might eventually, next to SW:GE by removing Indy, Star Tours and Muppets, and build something there. That would also tie the two boutiques together to help with logistics. But other than Avatar, which I really don't think is a big enough IP right now to carry a long term capital project like an immersive hotel, there just isn't anything readily available or on the schedule that will work. We will see if Avatar can move that direction with the eventual sequels. Color me skeptical.

 

[Dfan79]

Disney is not interested in making the parks more enjoyable for guests. As far as they are concerned, filled parks equal happy guests. If they are inclined to make changes to enhance guest experiences and reduce crowding, they would do as they are finally beginning to do: update the current parks attractins that have been shuttered, and expand their current parks. A fifth gate is not going to change a sad Future World, or move people around in DHS. More attractions might.

Eventually negative reviews about the crowds will pile up. Maybe not in the next 10 years, but eventually it will. Then people will definitely start rethinking vacation plans. If every line is enormous, then are you really having a good time? A vacation is supposed to be an enjoyable experience, not just an aggravating tedious situation.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Disney needs a 5th gate right now, however that's not going to happen.

There are ebbs and flows to vacation designations, and as long as it'll take to build a 5th theme park, the economy is more than likely going to flounder and that would put Disney World is a bad economic stand point.

The crowds will die down at some point, maybe that's because some people might not go back for a few years that normally go every year because of crowds, or the economy....

they've got issues that are keeping us from going as often as we want to. Transportation and crowds are our biggest problems right now (outside of how expensive it is now)

 

[derekleigh]

To be honest, I don't ever see a 5th gate or at least a formal 5th park (I do kind of consider DS/DTD to be WDW's 5th gate). WDW has so much land and it make for economical sense to add to the existing parks. When I say add, I mean make the overall footprint bigger rather than simply tear down and re-build.

One thing I do hope to see on day at WDW is some kind of Villains land. Since reading an article about a rumored 5th gate being dedicated to only villains (The Dark Kingdom), I had fallen in love with the idea of a land/park/area dedicated to villains.

 

[wfjny]

I had posted about this in the *Disney After Hours-Hollywood Studios* thread in the Theme Parks Forum.

Disney has already built a 5th gate, you are just not noticing it. It is called the “Hard Ticket Event”. You are noticing it, because it uses the same infrastructure that I already there. I was at Disney World on Wednesday the 12th. While the Magic Kingdom had “Extra Magic Hours”, essentially a free hard ticket event, they also had paid Hard Ticket Events in two other parks. Disney After Hours at Animal Kingdom was available from 8:30 PM to 11:30 PM for just $125.

In the meantime, they also had Early Morning Magic at Hollywood Studios for $79, plus of course the cost of regular admission to the park.

So, they basically had 6 gates open that day! I would think that within the next year, and certainly by 2020, they will be having at least 365 hard ticket events per year. Between the already know holiday parties which expanded this year ( 34 MNSSHP and 22 MVMCP), we now have Disney After Hours in at least 3 separate parks, and Early Morning Magic in at least 2 parks.

The one thing to note, on a normal multi-day "your way" ticket, adding another day is just a few dollars (adding a 7th day onto a 6 day ticket is something like $15). But these Hard Ticket events cannot be purchased for $15. While there are discounts for AP & DVC (I believe 20%), it does not get the cost anywhere near that $15 level.

Therefore, I submit that they already have a 5th gate, it just looks like the other 4 gates. But your multi-day ticket and annual pass will not work at that 5th gate. They effectively built a new park without spending a dime. They get a percentage of us to pay full price to get in. I would bet that in the future some of the Vacation packages will include your choice of one Hard Ticket Event (I am sure they will call it a "Disney Magic Event").

Keep in mind, Disney now offers I believe 9 different "Desert Parties" to view the various evening shows in the parks. They are finding more ways to charge for what they already have. I am not making a judgement, just pointing out the facts. I believe long before they build a new park, they are going to continue to find ways to maximize their earnings in the current parks.

 

[Patrick N]

I can't see them ever being willing to spend the money for an additional park. There's no need. They have proven that they can simply increase prices whenever they feel they need more revenue. I think you all know that they didn't just increase the ticket price this past October, they also increased the parking fee, added a parking fee at the resorts, increased the snack prices, and increased the Magic Band price. They make a tremendous profit from the timeshare units, and they are adding to them. In short, why spend megabucks to increase your profits when you can simply increase prices once or twice a year. And in my opinion, that will be true for a good many years going forward. I didn't notice lesser crowds when I was there last month.

 

[Doug M]

No 5th park until the 4 are all finished. I feel like you need 4 e tickets to be “finished”.

Shouldn’t Disney take the hint that some of their parks don’t have enough good stuff when they’re forced to tier your FP+ selections?

Magic Kingdom is fine. It doesn’t need the Tron coaster and I wish that was going to Epcot. MK is e ticket heaven, SM, SM, TM, 7DMT, PP are all e tickets. potc, hm, jungle cruise, princess meets, Buzz are all D tickets. MK doesn’t need help.

Maybe Hollywood Studios will be fine after Star Wars Land and the Mickey train. You’ll have the falcon, Mickey train, slinky, tot, and rnr. Maybe slinky and Mickey won’t be true e tickets 10 years from now when they’re no longer new. It’s close but you could argue it doesn’t need more. You could also argue it may need 1 more E ticket to really be a great park.

Animal Kingdom needs 1 more E ticket. Safari is great, Pandora is great, Everest and Kali are good. DINOSAUR was a miss for most people. With one more E ticket they could safely close Everest for 2 years to dismantle the track, fix the Yeti, and do whatever else is needed. Then you got 4 solid e tickets (safari, Pandora, Everest, new e ticket) and 2 marginal e tickets (Kali, DINOSAUR). Plus there’s enough other stuff (tough to be a bug, petting zoo, Dino land rides, walking trails) that the park would feel finished.

EPCOT is a disaster. Is Frozen considered an e ticket? I would put it as a D. Which leaves Soarin and Test Track as the only e tickets. The other rides are more like C or B quality. EPCOT needs like 3 more E tickets and at least 2 more D tickets before its close to competitive. Unless you like drinking around the world. Then EPCOT is your park!

Solid analysis IMO. The only quips I would argue is EPCOT already having 2 Es. TT is a marginal E ticket to me, but the standout. Soarin used to be, and maybe still is if you sit in the middle. Soon Guardians will be, then a bunch of lower level stuff. Lots of room to expand, especially in Future World and a few spots in WS to add. Ive heard amazing things about the Rat ride so that might scrape into E ticket.

I believe others mentioned needing more than just E ticket which is of course correct, but I don't think you were meaning 4 E ticket is all that is needed, just that you would like 4 in each along with other stuff.

 

[PplMover]

I've been thinking about this for a while and considered many possible reasons for all the new resort construction . A 5th Park to me seems like the only likely reason for all this new construction . I know Star Wars Galaxies Edge is going to be hugely popular and the reason many will suggest as the primary reason for all this resort expansion ...but I don't believe that it will be popular to the extent that Disney feels they can fill all these new rooms year round because of it . I believe that because of the coming 3rd Park that Universal has planned (though not yet announced) Disney has been planning a multilevel multi-year expansion to combat Universal's aggressive attempts to capture more of Disney's market share . Updating , upgrading , renovating , and expanding all the existing parks at an unprecedented pace shows that Disney is taking Universal's growth as a real threat to their kingdom and will fight back any and all ways to maintain their supremacy in the theme park industry . Building new resorts and a 5th theme park as well seem like another way Disney can and probably will secure their number 1 status in Orlando for the foreseeable future .

Yeah It's doubtful any time soon... When we did the undiscovered future world tour in EPCOT in 2014- our guide was a Legacy Award winner and awesome. The topic of a 5th park came up and the response was that while some things can be moved around- a a vast amount of land is already spoken for. (Now in that time we've gotten updates of several new resorts). He also said that with all the stuff to do in WDW now, that you can't see everything on a 4 or 5 day vacation. So adding more to that would be daunting to try to fit everything in and be satisfied. (I actually know a couple of people who haven't been to Disney World and instead travel across the country to exclusively do Disneyland because they said they'd feel overwhelmed trying to fit a WDW vacation in a long weekend). I go yearly (from NY) and when my kids get a bit older (youngest is 14 months) I'll be making 2-3 trips- so people like me wouldn't mind a 5th... but I can understand why one wouldn't be happening (...yet)

 

[jade1]

Saw an article a couple days ago about US (Ccast) having huge plans/budget for expansion at its parks. Not sure where I saw that, prob old news.

But that could push things a bit further, but generally agree with those its far from needed at WDW, since each existing park can improve/expand.

 

[Q-man]

From what I remember from all the pre Star Wars speculation, HS is kinda boxed in. I think some of that land is unbuildable or protected, and then it rubs up against the roads. But it’s been so long since it was discussed that I could be way off.

Echo Lake, Indy stunt show, ABC Theater, StarTours, Backlot, etc. is an area the size of Galaxy's Edge that could be repurposed. Heck you could go from just after Hollywood and Vine/Primetime all the way back to Muppets as Disney has never successfully breathed new life into the Muppets. That would be an area the size of SWGE and TSL combined if not larger.

 

[jknezek]

I find it kind of interesting when this topic comes up that people really want a 5th Park. I get the desire for something new and exciting, but when you think of how MGM (at the time) and AK opened, what opened with them, how they were really half filled out parks at best and still remain less than full day parks for many people, a new Park is just asking for something that isn't going to live up to the promise.

Disney isn't going to open a park with 10 rides. It's going to open with 3, maybe 4. A few shows and a bunch of themed shops with a handful of not so good restaurants and maybe 1 or two that are good and unique. How attractive does that really sound for another $100+ ticket? Wouldn't you rather your current $100 ticket to DHS get another attraction or three? A better restaurant or two? Something actually fun in Launchbay?

As a consumer, aren't we all better off if they actually invest in EPCOT, DHS, and AK to the level of MK? Why push to buy another ticket? Another Park? For me, logically, I want Disney to finish what they have.

A 5th park? No thanks. Not right now. Maybe in 20 years. Investment in what they have? Yes please. Lots and lots of it to help with the crowding and the ballooning ticket costs. Well done recently on the investment Disney. Now keep it going at this level for the next 20 years. Maybe then EPCOT, DHS, and AK will be completely built out.

Then we can talk about a 5th Gate.