Alligator Incident Discussion/Fence being built at Grand Floridian?

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Some people drink the Disney kool-aid heavily. Bottom line Disney screwed up....big time. During the following morning of the incident before he was even found they were tearing down hammocks, closing "beaches" at all resorts, and not showing news in club level lounges. Signs said "no swimming". He wasn't swimming. Most resort CM's playfully refer to gators at the resorts as "resident pets". Because, you know, Disney is so magical. It's so devastating that it sometimes takes a tragedy to happen to finally put up non-sugar coated signs. And it's not like the area was a roped off construction site. The incident took place where they're encouraged to lounge and build sand castles. If Disney knew inches away there were alligators then they should've done something a long time ago. That spot is way too easily accessible and hardly warned, especially for what they were using the area for. All they could come up with was "no swimming" to keep it upbeat and magical.

Precisely.

These fake beaches were useless to anyone who has access to real beaches back home. They were small, they were hot, they had water you couldn't swim in, best use for them was towards the end of the day when the kids were bored with the pool and wanted to use the jungle gym and dad could relax with mom in a hammock.

And let's not forget, that this particular beach was used at primarily at night, pitch dark, for movie viewing. Who can see the murky, unclean water in the darkness? Who can see any signs at all without light? This was an accident waiting to happen and it's a good thing they're shutting them down, they really were more atmospheric than functional.
 
This is such an alarmist attitude. What happened is terrible. Be aware that this CAN happen. Don't chastise every single outdoor event that happens because there is an insanely small chance, even SMALLER now that people are actually aware that wildlife indeed exists outside in Disney, that something awful might happen again.

Alarmist attitude?

Do the residents of Florida host birthday parties for children at 9:30 at night in pitch darkness at the edge of a lake? You know, fire up the BBQ grill, fill the air with the smell of food, kids splashing at water's edge? Based on what I've learned this week, only an idiot would do that, every parent in Florida knows not to do that.

Because that's what Disney has been doing for years.
 
All I know is that some people always think rules, signs (no mater how large or explicit), barriers etc don't apply--to THEM.

Any fence at GF short of 8 feet high will be climbed over by some bird-brain--you can count on it.

And any rope barrier will be crawled under by some unattended kid.

And why would anyone cancel a WDW vacation due to what happened??

I'm not one of those people. I see a warning sign, I take it very seriously. We have some nasty beaches up north here in New York, New Jersey, and Maine. Sharks, undertows, rip-tides, piers, jagged rocks, bays, harbors, lack of lifeguarding, commercial fishing, lobster trapping, you name it.

I have been to Disney World no less than 20 times as a child in the 70s, as a college student in the 80s, and as a parent in the 90s and 00s and 10s, that's about 140 days all over the property and I have never seen an alligator, have never heard of an incident with an alligator, have never seen a sign warning of an alligator. 40+ years, 20+ visits, 140+ days, the word "alligator" did not even cross my mind as a problem at Walt Disney World.

So if you want to talk about the fools who don't read signs and would get into trouble anyway, that's cool, that's about 5% of the public, I get it. But for the rest of us, the other 95%, we'd have known of the dangers and avoided the beaches at night which my family and I must have done a dozen times.

And as far as cancelling a WDW vacation over this incident, it's about a broken trust with the public and one that they are going to have to do more than putting up fences and signs to rectify. They can't get all of the alligators I'm told, but they got 8 of them out of the Lagoon in half a day, certainly they can take these measures and make the public feel comfortable again.
 


I'm not one of those people. I see a warning sign, I take it very seriously. We have some nasty beaches up north here in New York, New Jersey, and Maine. Sharks, undertows, rip-tides, piers, jagged rocks, bays, harbors, lack of lifeguarding, commercial fishing, lobster trapping, you name it.

I have been to Disney World no less than 20 times as a child in the 70s, as a college student in the 80s, and as a parent in the 90s and 00s and 10s, that's about 140 days all over the property and I have never seen an alligator, have never heard of an incident with an alligator, have never seen a sign warning of an alligator. 40+ years, 20+ visits, 140+ days, the word "alligator" did not even cross my mind as a problem at Walt Disney World.

So if you want to talk about the fools who don't read signs and would get into trouble anyway, that's cool, that's about 5% of the public, I get it. But for the rest of us, the other 95%, we'd have known of the dangers and avoided the beaches at night which my family and I must have done a dozen times.

And as far as cancelling a WDW vacation over this incident, it's about a broken trust with the public and one that they are going to have to do more than putting up fences and signs to rectify. They can't get all of the alligators I'm told, but they got 8 of them out of the Lagoon in half a day, certainly they can take these measures and make the public feel comfortable again.

So this would be all about "feeling" safe. Making Disney implement measures that you deem would allow you to vacation with the illusion of safety. Kill any alligator that they can find, even though in over 20 visits you had never seen one. All those visits and now you are afraid.

I am not opposed to signs. I think they will be ignored, just liek all the safety warnings on attractions, but it you "feel" better, I am okay With that. You want a physical line in the sand? Have your fence. I think that they will be ignored as wee by those people who see no harm, but okay.

Remove the alligators? Impossible,
 
Fact: Any amount of water that covers the mouth and nose is enough water to drown. It doesn't need to be a depth for swimming. Disney has lifeguards at all bodies of water that people are allowed in to prevent drowning.

As a side note, We do not use the hot tubs but witnessed people being turned away at BW because the lifeguard said the pool was closing and nobody can go in the hot tub after hours. People (adults) made a bit of a scene because they wanted to go in at that time.
 
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I think unfortunately that's the issue. "No swimming". The boy wasn't swimming.

If the toddler was playing in water a foot deep as has been reported, he was swimming. Calf-deep water for an adult is much deeper to a 2 y/o.
 
People could argue over "no swimming". At least the new signs are more accurate, noticeable, and specific if they're going to keep alligators in the water and on site a few feet's distance from where they have kids play. Even if he was completely out of the water, even a foot away from the water and throwing rocks in the water unfortunately the same thing could have happened. Unfortunately because of this incident, I and many others, have learned a lot about alligator behavior, their nighttime behavior, and the quantity of alligators at WDW. I will continue to visit but will now be more cautious. Especially since CM's have playfully told us in the past that they're just "resident pets".
 
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I do not know what will happen, but I do believe that if this goes to court and I think it will at begin with a lawsuit, there will be a lot riding on the verdict. YOu can bet a buck that any resort and amusement park will be following this because how the conduct business in the future will be changed based on a ruling. There are posters here who seem to think that WDW is a bubble but they are part of the tourism industry in FL, and if they are held liable for this, others will be forced to make changes as well.

I am not sure if this will get to court but I bet businesses all ove the country are hoping it will not.

There's no way this goes to court. There will be a private settlement, the process has probably already begun.
 
If the toddler was playing in water a foot deep as has been reported, he was swimming. Calf-deep water for an adult is much deeper to a 2 y/o.

Building-sand-castles-at-the-beach-at-The-Grand-Floridian-at-Disney-World-1.jpg


The-beach-at-Disney-World-Grand-Floridian-1.jpg


The child was a "foot out" in the water, not in water a foot deep.

These are photos of the beach in question. There is a 'shelf' of sand that goes out about 6 feet and then a sharp falloff, just as explained by the Disney signs. The child was kicking sand castles at the water line, right where the baby is in the photo above. The water on this 'shelf' is only a few inches deep. The poor boy who was attacked was up to his ankles, the only way to get in deeper would have been to be fully submerged where that shelf drops off sharply.

The child was not swimming. It was pitch black, he was building sand castles, and unfortunately splashed in that little puddle of an area which attracted the attention of an alligator perched in the deeper water at the falloff.
 
I do not know what will happen, but I do believe that if this goes to court and I think it will at begin with a lawsuit, there will be a lot riding on the verdict. YOu can bet a buck that any resort and amusement park will be following this because how the conduct business in the future will be changed based on a ruling. There are posters here who seem to think that WDW is a bubble but they are part of the tourism industry in FL, and if they are held liable for this, others will be forced to make changes as well.

I am not sure if this will get to court but I bet businesses all ove the country are hoping it will not.

I don't think that there's any new case law to be made here. There have been deaths at theme parks in the past - lots of them. And not just theme parks. It's a death that occurred on private property. The liability laws don't change just because it's an alligator that caused the death, as opposed to a broken elevator, or a uncovered trench.

But, as a PP said, there won't be a lawsuit. Disney will take care of the family, will consult with their lawyers about any additional measures that should be taken to protect them from future liability, and the world will keep turning.
 
I don't think that there's any new case law to be made here. There have been deaths at theme parks in the past - lots of them. And not just theme parks. It's a death that occurred on private property. The liability laws don't change just because it's an alligator that caused the death, as opposed to a broken elevator, or a uncovered trench.


I don't know. If negligence due to lack of proper signage etc is found, that impacts how others move forward in business.

I also think it will stay out of court.
 
Alarmist attitude?

Do the residents of Florida host birthday parties for children at 9:30 at night in pitch darkness at the edge of a lake? You know, fire up the BBQ grill, fill the air with the smell of food, kids splashing at water's edge? Based on what I've learned this week, only an idiot would do that, every parent in Florida knows not to do that.

Because that's what Disney has been doing for years.

And in all those years this is the first time that somebody has died on Disney property from an alligator attack. A complete and utter tragedy which has affected some people very badly (not least of all the family). Millions of people have walked on that beach, played on that beach, watched movies on the beach and eaten whilst watching the electrical parade and the fireworks and nothing has happened to them. It is highly unlikely that this situation will occur again in the near future. Disney have made changes already because of what happened which is a positive thing. People can argue until the cows come home over whether that should have been there before or not but that will not bring the child back. Some people will not want to participate in evening events on the beach now, others will still wish to use that facility. Based on the level of risk there is no need to withdraw these activities although some will call for that.
 
I wonder if there is a way to create some type of electronic deterrent or noise...vibration deterrent in the water near the sand so they (gators, snakes will avoid it). They do the same for cattle fences etc. Ive been zinged by cattle fence. It isn't that bad for humans...I don't think. But I just wonder if they could create something that would make the crittters avoid the beaches from down in the water. Of course no feeding of animals zero tolerance.
 
Alarmist attitude?

Do the residents of Florida host birthday parties for children at 9:30 at night in pitch darkness at the edge of a lake? You know, fire up the BBQ grill, fill the air with the smell of food, kids splashing at water's edge? Based on what I've learned this week, only an idiot would do that, every parent in Florida knows not to do that.

Because that's what Disney has been doing for years.

No it isn't. Don't exaggerate things to make your point.
 
Ah yes. FL residents all stay in after dark. None have barbeques, none go camping, it is an unwritten rule that all of the people in FL outside of Disney are always frightened that a gator might attack because out of 20 million resident people and 1.5 million resident gators, once every 4 years a gator might confuse your leg for a beaver.


People still camp where there are bears. Swim where there are sharks. Hike where there are mountain lions. These are inviting places. Disney knew the gators were there but didn't assume they would attack because it's not typical behavior. Sometimes accidents happen.

And I hardly drink the kool aid. I have never stayed at a wdw resort. I prefer the DL parks and am on these boards because we take the cruises and are looking into aulani. Wdw isn't enchanting to me. But I have to argue that some people's attitudes about this are completely irrational.
 
And in all those years this is the first time that somebody has died on Disney property from an alligator attack. A complete and utter tragedy which has affected some people very badly (not least of all the family). Millions of people have walked on that beach, played on that beach, watched movies on the beach and eaten whilst watching the electrical parade and the fireworks and nothing has happened to them. It is highly unlikely that this situation will occur again in the near future. Disney have made changes already because of what happened which is a positive thing. People can argue until the cows come home over whether that should have been there before or not but that will not bring the child back. Some people will not want to participate in evening events on the beach now, others will still wish to use that facility. Based on the level of risk there is no need to withdraw these activities although some will call for that.

It's all a liability issue and will be up to Disney's insurance carriers and lawyers to make those decisions! Of course Disney will have PR issues as well.
 
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