Arguments For and Against Disneyland Reopening Now

[olafgypsy]

Starting this thread so as to not hijack the “Disneyland Reopening Speculation Superthread” with debates about whether the park should or shouldn’t reopen now.

Do you think Disneyland should reopen now? Why?

Here are some arguments I’ve heard on either side:

YES, Disneyland should reopen now:
- It makes no sense and is not fair to the theme park sector for Disneyland to be closed when zoos, museums, restaurants, and other tourist draws are open throughout California.
- Disney has shown they can operate their theme parks safely in other places.
- The economic impacts of continued closure are devastating to Anaheim and surrounding areas.

NO, Disneyland should not reopen now:
- It is unsafe to reopen a theme park with the novel Coronavirus still circulating via community spread.
- We should prioritize reopening other, more essential sectors, like schools.
- Unlike the Florida parks, Disneyland draws many more local visitors, so the state has a greater interest in keeping them from becoming a source of virus transmission.

 

[mouschievous]

Someone in another thread brought up the fact that Florida's contact tracing has been pretty awful, which leads them to not believe the "theme parks aren't adding to the spread" soundbite. If they were the only example of a theme park running without the virus spreading, I'd question it as well, but given that Paris, Shanghai and Tokyo are all open (and we know that China especially monitors their citizens) and we haven't seen a major spread from that, I think that carries some weight.

I sit firmly in the "I don't know" camp. I can see both sides. I am really worried about the economic fallout of this. That leads me to "let them open." But I also know that I am scared to death of my industry reopening, for fear I'll be required to come back to work, putting me and my family at risk, forcing me to choose whether I want to work and pay my bills or if I want to be able to spend time with my high risk parents. So then I swing to the "nope, don't open yet" side of things.

I said this in another thread, but I think it's also easy for those of us outside to have an opinion that isn't really based on the facts of that space. My state, which has a larger population than Orange County, also has fewer cases and deaths than just Orange County. That's a MAJOR difference. It's very easy for me to look at it from the lens of my experience and say "well, there's not that many cases, I don't see a problem here," whereas someone who lives in Italy, a place that experienced massive loss and major restrictions in an attempt to get the spread under control, may look at it and say "No way, this is crazy, there's no reason to take that risk!"

All of that to say my answer is "I don't know," though I think I lean toward opening cautiously and see what happens. I do think there needs to be consistency in what is and isn't allowed.

 

[abent]

I am an ”essential worker” as is my husband. Since March 14th many areas of the country has been shut down, with the exception of essential business. We personally have made great efforts in maintaining safety for ourselves, our families, and employees.
I know the risks every single day I go to work, to the store, or even restaurants. My family is in education,medical, and infrastructure fields....we exercise great precautions for our safety and those around us. We go to work every single day.
Businesses need to be allowed to be open. We expect certain ones to be. I have never seen a Walmart, Target or Costco NOT BUSY. People can choose to not go to Disneyland/stores/restaurants and make decisions on their own personal lives. People need to be able to provide for their families. If they feel their jobs put them at too high of risk, hopefully the economy will be able to absorb them into a field that doesn’t. I feel like we are In a point of time that people aren’t respected for their own decision and choices. I feel that working from home is a luxury that so many do not have.
Disneyland isn’t a essential business except to those who support their families from it. What will be left for them?

 

[theluckyrabbit]

Starting this thread so as to not hijack the “Disneyland Reopening Speculation Superthread” with debates about whether the park should or shouldn’t reopen now.

Do you think Disneyland should reopen now? Why?

Here are some arguments I’ve heard on either side:

YES, Disneyland should reopen now:
- It makes no sense and is not fair to the theme park sector for Disneyland to be closed when zoos, museums, restaurants, and other tourist draws are open throughout California.
- Disney has shown they can operate their theme parks safely in other places.
- The economic impacts of continued closure are devastating to Anaheim and surrounding areas.

NO, Disneyland should not reopen now:
- It is unsafe to reopen a theme park with the novel Coronavirus still circulating via community spread.
- We should prioritize reopening other, more essential sectors, like schools.
- Unlike the Florida parks, Disneyland draws many more local visitors, so the state has a greater interest in keeping them from becoming a source of virus transmission.

Thank you for starting this thread! I think it is important for people here to have a safe place where they can have a thoughtful, meaningful discussion on the different points of view on this issue.
For everyone who posts here, please remember that the guidelines still apply.

 

[gelatoni fan]

Here's some numbers:

• Orange County has been between 140 and 190 cases per day over the past few days. Let's just take 160 and divide by the population for just over 5 cases per 100,000 people (California averaged 3,265 per day over the past week or 8.3 per 100,000).
• When the Hong Kong government mandated the park to re-close in July, there were 83 cases or about 1.1 cases per 100,000 people.
• When Tokyo Disneyland reopened, Tokyo had about 60 cases per day or about 0.65 cases per 100,000 (Japan had 130 cases or 0.1 per 100,000).
• When Paris Disneyland reopened, France was just under 700 cases per day or about 1 case per 100,000.
• When Magic Kingdom reopened, Florida had about 10,000 to 11,000 cases per day or just under 49 cases per 100,000.

California is strict about reopening by American standards but if the standards for any of the foreign parks were used, Disneyland would definitely still be closed. In every case except Shanghai, there was an uptick in coronavirus cases after the park reopened. Hong Kong increased from 4 cases on the first reopening day to 149 at the second peak. Tokyo increased from 67 to 472 (Japan from 130 to 1,998). France increased from 534 to over 20,000 but the daily case count is still increasing. Florida increased from 10,360 to 15,300. Obviously, this isn't entirely due to theme parks because other easing of restrictions happened at the same time but if theme parks are reopened, people are also more likely to do other activities as well. Psychologically, Disneyland being open will signal to people that it's also safe to visit beaches, museums, restaurants and other places that may not be as good with protecting patrons from infection. We may also have a false sense of security about amusement parks because of insufficient contact tracing and media reporting. There certainly have been many cases of people who tested positive and also visited a Disney park.

Being more oriented towards locals, schools in most counties still being closed is a huge crowd problem for Disneyland. Right now, Hong Kong has students going to school for half days and in the afternoon, the park is ultra packed. With the exception of some holidays in the past, the park is more crowded than it has ever been - even more crowded than an average weekend before the pandemic. Just looking at how crazy the lines are to get into Downtown Disney compared to Disney Springs and we can expect a similar situation will happen if Disneyland reopened but schools in California were not open. I think that Disneyland should not open before all the schools in Southern California have in-person classes.

As far as the economy is concerned, quality of life is important and losing a job can also have many adverse health effects. Having less income can mean psychological issues but can also lead to bad nutrition, stress and other health problems. Unemployment also has a tendency to increase crime and societal instability. I'd love for a bunch of experts on these topics to model the effects and compare to what epidemiologists think the effect of reopening the parks would be on the pandemic. Then at least policy makers can have good estimates on how reopening the parks may affect all areas of society as a whole in both the immediate and longer term.

Not to be political but in general, Democrats favor stricter lockdowns while Republicans are more concerned about the economy. It's no surprise that Florida having a Republican governor allowed the reopening far sooner than the Democrat state of California.

 

[DizMe]

I hope this is a baseless fear, but I worry that the obvious rancor between the state and Disney will lead to knee-jerk decisions made in anger. Disney has already cut almost all of the DL CMs, shows, entertainment acts and so on. I fear that this standoff could escalate into actions/threats that might be difficult to walk back later. That's my greatest fear--that Disney will threaten not to reopen in CA or something along those lines. I know it's Walt's original park etc, but you know how cockfights can get. So I really hope that the state takes a good hard look at what's at stake if Disneyland remains closed for too long and how bad that could be for CA, and I hope Disney takes a good hard look at how poorly received their aggressive approach has been and what they too have to lose, and both sides concede that there is a middle ground that can be reached.

I personally am not qualified to judge when the time is right for theme parks to open, but my thought is that waiting too long could mean you waited TOO LONG and reopening is no longer an option.

 

[olafgypsy]

Being more oriented towards locals, schools in most counties still being closed is a huge crowd problem for Disneyland. Right now, Hong Kong has students going to school for half days and in the afternoon, the park is ultra packed. With the exception of some holidays in the past, the park is more crowded than it has ever been - even more crowded than an average weekend before the pandemic. Just looking at how crazy the lines are to get into Downtown Disney compared to Disney Springs and we can expect a similar situation will happen if Disneyland reopened but schools in California were not open. I think that Disneyland should not open before all the schools in Southern California have in-person classes.

As far as the economy is concerned, quality of life is important and losing a job can also have many adverse health effects. Having less income can mean psychological issues but can also lead to bad nutrition, stress and other health problems. Unemployment also has a tendency to increase crime and societal instability. I'd love for a bunch of experts on these topics to model the effects and compare to what epidemiologists think the effect of reopening the parks would be on the pandemic. Then at least policy makers can have good estimates on how reopening the parks may affect all areas of society as a whole in both the immediate and longer term.

Wow, interesting info about the impact of closed schools on crowding. I never even considered that but I’m sure that is right. With kiddos at home people are just desperate for stuff to do with them. And also, they can.

I am one of those who feels very strongly that SCHOOLS SHOULD BE OPEN in a health-prioritization approach, so if I were in charge, schools would never have closed.

I wish we had better data and modeling too, for everything, not just for theme parks. And I 100% acknowledge the potential public health effects of skyrocketing unemployment, which is why if I’m being honest I just really don’t know the answer to this question. Selfishly I would like to think that reopening is a good idea and so does that mean I give more weight to the pro-economy arguments? Probably, yes. At the same time I wish there were more overall balance between the two sides (economy first vs health first) and that governments would acknowledge that the economy and public health are entertwined.

 

[mouschievous]

Thanks for sharing all the numbers. It's very interesting!

As far as the economy is concerned, quality of life is important and losing a job can also have many adverse health effects. Having less income can mean psychological issues but can also lead to bad nutrition, stress and other health problems. Unemployment also has a tendency to increase crime and societal instability. I'd love for a bunch of experts on these topics to model the effects and compare to what epidemiologists think the effect of reopening the parks would be on the pandemic. Then at least policy makers can have good estimates on how reopening the parks may affect all areas of society as a whole in both the immediate and longer term.

This is really what we need. It's possible those in charge are looking at these things, but if they are they're not sharing. I'd love to see information like this.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

NYT article:
At Disney World, 'Worst Fears' About Virus Have Not Come True

 

[cruisehopeful]

I just don't understand why there isn't a way to open with major restrictions. That would give people a choice and perhaps not all the workers would return. So, those with underlying health concerns can still have the benefit of staying home. The San Diego Zoo and Safari park have been open since June. While I haven't visited, I also haven't heard anything negative about either place. If they can be open with restrictions, it seems like Disneyland could with severe restrictions.

I get that theme parks are about rides and people are touching everything getting in and out of the rides. Wouldn't portable hand washing stations help with that? I touch numerous crossing light switches every morning that have been touched by many people. I wash my hands when I get home. I think the theme parks could operate outside rides, have handwashing stations and don't open the rides that people tend to scream on.

As far as the workers who don't want to return, I do understand and sympathize. I hope that there's some type of alternative for those in the high risk category for going on disability or something like that. I know someone who's son was getting called back to work at a movie theater and he didn't want to go because he has asthma, allergies and is 80 pounds overweight. I completely agree with him that he shouldn't go back to work at this time. I don't know what his options are. I told his mom to ask his doctor if there's any way to keep him out of work.

I suppose when it comes down to it, I wouldn't go to Disneyland if it were open right now. I haven't been to Downtown Disney, the San Diego Zoo or Safari park, the movies and I won't eat indoors at a restaurant. I have been getting the majority of my groceries delivered and even started using Grubhub instead of going to grab takeout. However, I am totally supportive of anyone who wants to go do those things and I hope that the people who want to work can go to work while at the same time, those who don't want to go back get to stay away longer. It's a really mixed bag right now.

 

[abent]

I just don't understand why there isn't a way to open with major restrictions. That would give people a choice and perhaps not all the workers would return. So, those with underlying health concerns can still have the benefit of staying home. The San Diego Zoo and Safari park have been open since June. While I haven't visited, I also haven't heard anything negative about either place. If they can be open with restrictions, it seems like Disneyland could with severe restrictions.

I get that theme parks are about rides and people are touching everything getting in and out of the rides. Wouldn't portable hand washing stations help with that? I touch numerous crossing light switches every morning that have been touched by many people. I wash my hands when I get home. I think the theme parks could operate outside rides, have handwashing stations and don't open the rides that people tend to scream on.

As far as the workers who don't want to return, I do understand and sympathize. I hope that there's some type of alternative for those in the high risk category for going on disability or something like that. I know someone who's son was getting called back to work at a movie theater and he didn't want to go because he has asthma, allergies and is 80 pounds overweight. I completely agree with him that he shouldn't go back to work at this time. I don't know what his options are. I told his mom to ask his doctor if there's any way to keep him out of work.

I suppose when it comes down to it, I wouldn't go to Disneyland if it were open right now. I haven't been to Downtown Disney, the San Diego Zoo or Safari park, the movies and I won't eat indoors at a restaurant. I have been getting the majority of my groceries delivered and even started using Grubhub instead of going to grab takeout. However, I am totally supportive of anyone who wants to go do those things and I hope that the people who want to work can go to work while at the same time, those who don't want to go back get to stay away longer. It's a really mixed bag right now.

What I like most about your statement is that while you might choose to not attend Disneyland/ return to work places....you support those that would. We are all in different positions in this situation, and my hope is that we get through this supporting others in what is the best choice for them!

 

[VandVsmama]

Here's where my head is on this topic at the moment:

• I don't understand what it is about theme park rides & attractions that suddenly turns this situation from a Knotts food & shopping festival sort of thing into "People will get sick and die if you go on a ride." Disney theme parks and many other theme parks have been handling this for months now in multiple locations and have been doing so successfully.
• If you're afraid, don't feel safe, don't feel comfortable going for whatever reason, then you can stay home. Why does the rest of the world have to remain shut down because you're afraid of theme parks, but it's ok for you (the collective 'you,' not anyone here in particular) to go to a crowded Target, Walmart, Lowe's, Home Depot or grocery store on any given day?
• We went to the San Diego Zoo in early July about a week-ish after they first reopened. It was great. It was easy to stay away from people. The zoo handled everything really well. We had a nice time.
• Your local grocery store, Walmart, Target, etc. are MUCH less likely to actually kick people out if they're not wearing a mask or not wearing one properly. I see this near us on a regular basis (noses peeking out, an occasional person not wearing a mask at all). However, in WDW or DTD, they WILL stop you and tell you to put it on properly and if you refuse, you WILL be kicked out.
• Enforcement of the rules on Disney property is VERY high.
• Disney park goers right now are highly motivated to follow the rules because they all want to get their Disney park fix and they know that if they refuse to follow the safety protocols, then that means you are NOT getting into a park.
• If you don't want to go to a theme park, then don't go. But just because you don't want to go, doesn't mean that nobody else should be allowed to go either.

I know a couple of people IRL who talk a lot about how they think that people shouldn't be allowed to go to theme parks, zoos, museums, etc. right now. They SAY that they want everyone to remain at home in perpetuity until there's a vaccine available. BUT...these same people (again, people I know personally, not 'people in general') don't practice what they preach.

For example, let's take "Jane" (not her real name). Lives in the San Diego area. Invited her to join us at the San Diego Zoo when we went. She declined (ok, that's fine, we were cool with that, everybody has to decide what works for them right now) and said that she didn't feel safe and was "worried that it would be full of a bunch of anti-mask 'Karens' spitting on people." Um, okay? We met up with Jane at her house after our zoo trip. Asked her ahead of time if she'd prefer that we didn't meet up with her afterwards given her concerns. She said no, it was cool. And guess what? We learned (and saw in person) that every Friday and Saturday evening, Jane basically has a mini-block party with 10-20 neighbors, with everybody sitting <6' apart from each other around a fire pit, drinking and having a great time. NOBODY social distancing or wearing masks. EVERY WEEKEND since the COVID-19 shut down began. And MANY of those people are or are connected to someone who is in a 'high risk' category, including one gentleman who's actively going through chemo for cancer treatments. Oh. My. Goodness.

Let's also take a look at person #2 - "Mary." Mary is over age 65, has a lot of health problems (heart disease, mismanaged Type 2 diabetes, etc.), and like Jane, talks a lot about how things should all remain shut down. Except for the things that Mary wants to do. It's ok for Mary to go to the places she wants to go to, but she doesn't want anybody else to do those things. And she doesn't think people should be allowed to go to any of the places she does NOT want to go to. Mary has said she's worried about dying if she gets COVID-19 and we understand her concern given her health problems. But she goes to church in person each week. And spends time with several dozen other people over the course of each week through her various other activities, not including normal errands like grocery store and pharmacy trips. She gets exposed to a LOT of people. More people than we encounter in person on any given week. That's ok for her, but suddenly when there's talk of Disneyland reopening, that's too scary and Disneyland reopening is going to kill your proverbial grandma.

 

[AnnyMouse]

I think there in inherit risk with opening up theme parks right now. Even at reduced capacity there is going to be large crowds of people in the parks. It is not so much the activities themselves that make opening up theme parks high risk it is the number of people who will be in the theme parks that does.

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

Excellent thread so far!!

Here's some numbers:

• Orange County has been between 140 and 190 cases per day over the past few days. Let's just take 160 and divide by the population for just over 5 cases per 100,000 people (California averaged 3,265 per day over the past week or 8.3 per 100,000).
• When the Hong Kong government mandated the park to re-close in July, there were 83 cases or about 1.1 cases per 100,000 people.
• When Tokyo Disneyland reopened, Tokyo had about 60 cases per day or about 0.65 cases per 100,000 (Japan had 130 cases or 0.1 per 100,000).
• When Paris Disneyland reopened, France was just under 700 cases per day or about 1 case per 100,000.
• When Magic Kingdom reopened, Florida had about 10,000 to 11,000 cases per day or just under 49 cases per 100,000.

California is strict about reopening by American standards but if the standards for any of the foreign parks were used, Disneyland would definitely still be closed. In every case except Shanghai, there was an uptick in coronavirus cases after the park reopened. Hong Kong increased from 4 cases on the first reopening day to 149 at the second peak. Tokyo increased from 67 to 472 (Japan from 130 to 1,998). France increased from 534 to over 20,000 but the daily case count is still increasing. Florida increased from 10,360 to 15,300. Obviously, this isn't entirely due to theme parks because other easing of restrictions happened at the same time but if theme parks are reopened, people are also more likely to do other activities as well. Psychologically, Disneyland being open will signal to people that it's also safe to visit beaches, museums, restaurants and other places that may not be as good with protecting patrons from infection. We may also have a false sense of security about amusement parks because of insufficient contact tracing and media reporting. There certainly have been many cases of people who tested positive and also visited a Disney park.

Being more oriented towards locals, schools in most counties still being closed is a huge crowd problem for Disneyland. Right now, Hong Kong has students going to school for half days and in the afternoon, the park is ultra packed. With the exception of some holidays in the past, the park is more crowded than it has ever been - even more crowded than an average weekend before the pandemic. Just looking at how crazy the lines are to get into Downtown Disney compared to Disney Springs and we can expect a similar situation will happen if Disneyland reopened but schools in California were not open. I think that Disneyland should not open before all the schools in Southern California have in-person classes.

As far as the economy is concerned, quality of life is important and losing a job can also have many adverse health effects. Having less income can mean psychological issues but can also lead to bad nutrition, stress and other health problems. Unemployment also has a tendency to increase crime and societal instability. I'd love for a bunch of experts on these topics to model the effects and compare to what epidemiologists think the effect of reopening the parks would be on the pandemic. Then at least policy makers can have good estimates on how reopening the parks may affect all areas of society as a whole in both the immediate and longer term.

Not to be political but in general, Democrats favor stricter lockdowns while Republicans are more concerned about the economy. It's no surprise that Florida having a Republican governor allowed the reopening far sooner than the Democrat state of California.

What a great post. Thank you for putting out the numbers of the other parks--I hadn't done the specifics and that is a little eye-opening.

I am one of those who feels very strongly that SCHOOLS SHOULD BE OPEN in a health-prioritization approach, so if I were in charge, schools would never have closed.

This! I also think that schools need to be prioritized and the fact that schools in CA are not open for the most part is a real problem with the opening of Disneyland. A long time ago, I wrote in this forum that Disney would not open until schools due to the "optics," and a lot of people here didn't agree with me I suspect this is a big factor in Newsom's reluctance to provide guidelines.

For the record though, I do think schools AND the parks should be open by now. Both are places that can enforce masks and social distancing for the most part. I've flown internationally twice during this pandemic, including recently, and with mask and social distancing enforced I have felt much safer than for example at a restaurant.

 

[WonkaKid]

For: I’d really like them to.
Against: They really shouldn’t.
For: But I’d really like them to.
Against: But they really shouldn’t.

And so on and so on ad infinitum ;-).

 

[MonocularVision]

I don’t know if I have a strong feeling one way or the other. There are some points that I do want to make:

1. There is nothing wrong with believing that the parks should not open. Folks who state: “people who don’t want to go shouldn’t go, but let us!” are missing the point of keeping activities closed. The behavior of everyone affects everyone else during a pandemic. Our hospitals can still get overrun. And if they do, it affects a lot more than people who get COVID.
2. We are still learning about this virus. Just the other day I called for a little humility over sweeping statements being made in the other thread only to be told I needed to educate myself. It was only days later when the CDC officially stated that the virus is airborne. While I feel confident that Disneyland would do a pretty great job at enforcing the rules, we still cannot say for certain that there couldn’t be significant spread with a limited opening.
3. I understand the desire to compare DLR and WDW but the fact that Disneyland is so much more compact than WDW has to play into the effect a reopen would have.

Anyway, I appreciate the space to discuss this issue and hope we can continue being open yet civil. I hope we reach a situation soon where the parks can reopen and folks can get back to work safely.

 

[RainyDayPixie]

I don’t know if I have a strong feeling one way or the other. There are some points that I do want to make:

1. There is nothing wrong with believing that the parks should not open. Folks who state: “people who don’t want to go shouldn’t go, but let us!” are missing the point of keeping activities closed. The behavior of everyone affects everyone else during a pandemic. Our hospitals can still get overrun. And if they do, it affects a lot more than people who get COVID.
2. We are still learning about this virus. Just the other day I called for a little humility over sweeping statements being made in the other thread only to be told I needed to educate myself. It was only days later when the CDC officially stated that the virus is airborne. While I feel confident that Disneyland would do a pretty great job at enforcing the rules, we still cannot say for certain that there couldn’t be significant spread with a limited opening.
3. I understand the desire to compare DLR and WDW but the fact that Disneyland is so much more compact than WDW has to play into the effect a reopen would have.

Anyway, I appreciate the space to discuss this issue and hope we can continue being open yet civil. I hope we reach a situation soon where the parks can reopen and folks can get back to work safely.

This is how I feel and you said it so nicely. I honestly don’t know what is right, but I want this whole thing over as soon as possible.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

...
Anyway, I appreciate the space to discuss this issue and hope we can continue being open yet civil. I hope we reach a situation soon where the parks can reopen and folks can get back to work safely.

I totally agree.

 

[VandVsmama]

This is some interesting food for thought.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...ztAfLRdsLtMkldf5aqWl9pgiV4oYZ9IFOolA3tUXByz3U

 

[wingednike]

I really feel that Disney needs to do small events to test all the protocols they have in place. What works for Knotts may not work for Disney, especially given that the Disney crowd is used to being in long lines, waiting for hours, and being surrounded by strangers.

If DTD's reopening is their template, it feels like they are slow to react and make necessary changes. They should have expanded their retail footprint weeks ago when they saw consistent parking lot shutdowns.