Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[tarheelmjfan]

Sorry, I can't figure out how to quote your responses that were within my reply, but I do want to reply to them all. I wasn't in any way trying to insinuate that you thought they were required to accommodate you in a specific way, so sorry if it read like that.

I injured my hip at 17 and, despite surgeries, have had issues with my strength, range of motion, and overall mobility since. I'm 30 now, and have osteoarthritis in my hips, knees, and SI joints, along with some other issues all stemming from that initial injury 13 years ago. It really sucks to have a disability and I'm sorry that you're going through it too. My door is open as well if you ever want to talk. It sounds like we are in a similar boat with our physical capabilities. I can sort of do stairs if I have to, but I can only step up (still painfully) with my right leg and then have to pull the left up after. Both of my kids as toddlers tried to "teach me" to walk up stairs by alternating legs and I'll admit it made me cry both times. I too am grateful though that I still have some mobility.

Sorry, I'm going to make another difficult quote, but it's the easiest way to do it. Your story about your toddlers trying to teach you how to walk stairs breaks my heart. I had a first grader that had to carry me food & drinks, while I was bedfast for 2 months, prior to having back surgery on 5 herniated discs. My DH had to work, so DS did what he could. I know exactly how you feel. I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis at 27 that developed from sports injuries. I now also have osteoarthritis. These have resulted in a deteriorating spine, arthritis on my pelvic bones, right hip, jaws, hands, ankles, toes & bone on bone knees. My knees in particular balk at steps. I also have to lift my legs for steps. Without DH's help, I don't even attempt a few steps. More than 4 or 5 isn't happening. I can be very limiting. I hope they can save the cartilage & ligaments in your knees. I have none & have to rely on artificial injections to offer cushion. If your legs start sounding like Rice Krispies (snap, crackle, pop), go to the doctor immediately to see what they can do.

Back to the topic though, yes, with a DAS you can have a "runner" from your party get the return times. I know there are some families who do that and others who can't because they are travelling alone or only with young kids. I think it is possible for someone to use the DAS and not have to walk more, but it can vary. The bench nearby you were planning on waiting at might be occupied, the bathroom or nearest quick service might be a little ways away, etc. On my last trip, I almost never saw an unoccupied bench, and did see CMs trying to keep people from loitering too long at the QS tables. I found ways to sit when needed on planters or by hitting up a show, or a couple times sitting on the curb (and thankfully DH was there to help me back up) etc, but my overall point was simply that Disney can't guarantee a place to sit for people throughout the parks who need it.

It's awesome that you're still able to sit on curbs. I miss those day. There's no way I can do that now, but we've never had a problem finding a place to sit. If we have to buy a drink & snack to share, so be it.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

Previous version of Disney’s service for guests with disabilities were called:
Special Assistance Pass (SAP) and Guest Assistance Card (GA).

I think they named the current program Disability Access Service to clarify that it was for people with disabilities, not just any guest. I’ve seen posts in various places when it was SAP and GAC where people without disabilities rationalized that it was OK for their family to use it because of reasons like having multiple children, only spending a day in each park, this was the only trip they planned to take, etc. Their reasoning was that it didn’t say it was for people with disabilities.

When a guest gets or renews DAS, there is a page of information (electronic) to read and sign that says what DAS does. It specifically says it allows guests to schedule a Return Time that is comparable to the current queue wait for the given attraction. The only things mentioned are line related and attraction waiting is mentioned multiple times. By signing it, you also acknowledge that the person has a disability requiring the service and that you accept the terms and conditions of the card.
You do have a chance to ask questions, so if someone wonders if it’s used for other lines, they could ask.

That's the thing. It doesn't appear to be for people with disabilities. It appears to be for people with selective disabilities. People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.

So true. Some people are just jerks and it doesn’t matter how disabled you are, they will still comment. Many assume if you are not sitting in the wheelchair all the time, it means you don’t need it.
One day, my daughter and I were sitting on a bench in Germany overlooking the water when we heard 2 guys behind us making comments. Her wheelchair was parked next to her and one guy said, « Look at that. It’s too bad people like that rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in lines. » The other guy agreed; I shot them both a look.
What they didn’t see was that my daughter can’t get out of her wheelchair herself. I had to lift her out and place her on the bench. She had her legs crossed and was swinging her top leg, but she even needed help with that; she can’t lift her leg to cross it herself. And, her wheelchair has custom seating and doesn’t look like a rental. All they saw was a few minutes of her day and made jerky comments about something they knew nothing about.

I'm sad to see your DD has to deal with that. I've read enough threads on this board to know how much judgement there is out there. It's great that there are people here who couldn't imagine anyone doing that, but it definitely happens.

I guess that I don't see it as that way. I see it as everyone is responsible for themselves and should not expect a company to have to provide what you need for your medical issue. People with diabetes do not expect Disney to provide insulin, they don't give you free incontinence products, etc. It is nice that grocery stores provide the ECV's for shopping. But WDW is just too big to do that, especially with the amount of people that would take them up on that offer. And then if they run out, we all know that there will be people go ape S**t on them. "Disney ruined my vacation because they ran out of free ECVs", etc. There is something about Disney that makes people feel more entitled to get things for free I have noticed. All vacations are expensive, ever been to Hawaii? But nobody expects other locations to cater to them as they do Disney.

People with diabetes need insulin all the time. The same goes for those who are incontinent. That's not equivalent to people who can walk with or without a cane, crutches, etc. on a normal basis, but with need to rent a wheelchair or ECV at Disney, because they won't accommodate them otherwise.

I really don't get your attitude. It's totally uncalled for. I make it clear that I'm perfectly fine with not going to Disney, if they can't provide a way for me to not stand for a long time or climb stairs. They don't own me anything. There are plenty of other places we can vacations.

 

[SteveMouse]

You are welcome to bring a rollator, wheelchair, or ECV of your own or rent from somewhere other than Disney. No one is forcing you to rent from Disney

 

[kaytieeldr]

People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV

No. Again, check with friends, neighbors, relatives, local churches, service organizations to see if there is an appropriate device that you can borrow.

that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.

Every. Single. Disability. Is different. Even if the diagnosis is the same ( "You have MS, and you have MS, and you have...") the solution is different. I hve mobility isdues (which i handle for short ditances with a rollator, and longer ones with an ECV) as well as panic attacks in Haunted Mansion.

People with diabetes need insulin all the time. The same goes for those who are incontinent. That's not equivalent to people who can walk with or without a cane, crutches, etc. on a normal basis

So, again. Disney gets to decide which accommodation(s) for which needs. I don't. You don't. @lanejudy doesn't. @gap2368 doesn't.

You visit knowing what accommodation Disney will strongly recommend given one's needs.

 

[DisneyOma]

Wow. You really can be so nasty at times. I never said I get to decide what Disney does. I said I don't have to visit Disney, if they can't accommodate my situation in a way that works for me. I'm good with that. I have other options.

I totally support others who need DAS, but it's clear that's a one way street with many (not all) on this thread. Many people seem to only consider their situation & don't realize some physical disabilities are different from others. Regardless, I'm now done with this thread. My life is difficult enough without having to deal with attitudes like yours.

You can walk 8-10 miles a day with a cane? That's how much walking is done at WDW. Using 3 FP+ a day (which everyone gets) and then getting more as the day goes on wouldn't work? The DAS just gives you a different place to wait out the time. It doesn't get you on the attraction any faster, right?

 

[Mrsjvb]

Wow. You really can be so nasty at times. I never said I get to decide what Disney does. I said I don't have to visit Disney, if they can't accommodate my situation in a way that works for me. I'm good with that. I have other options.

I totally support others who need DAS, but it's clear that's a one way street with many (not all) on this thread. Many people seem to only consider their situation & don't realize some physical disabilities are different from others. Regardless, I'm now done with this thread. My life is difficult enough without having to deal with attitudes like yours.

actually the obstinate one here is you. you don't like the fact that you cant get your precise way and have decided that Disney is a big ole meany poopy head and are throwing a tantrum. very self-pitying overall.

I assure you we all are well aware that everyone's individual situation is different. what we are trying to do, and you keep crapping on, is explain to you the way Disney has elected to handle the basic issue of mobility issues in lines. if you don't think that is good enough for you, then that is NOT Disney's problem. nor is it their issue that YOU seem to be vehemently against using reasonable accommodations

how do you even KNOW that using an ECV or WC won't help if you refuse to even try?!

 

[5kidsmommy]

Wow. You really can be so nasty at times. I never said I get to decide what Disney does. I said I don't have to visit Disney, if they can't accommodate my situation in a way that works for me. I'm good with that. I have other options.

I totally support others who need DAS, but it's clear that's a one way street with many (not all) on this thread. Many people seem to only consider their situation & don't realize some physical disabilities are different from others. Regardless, I'm now done with this thread. My life is difficult enough without having to deal with attitudes like yours.

SO how would DAS help you? It won't eliminate lines, it won't eliminate standing. It doesn't make your wait shorter. I'm just trying to undertand how you think DAS would assist you with your disability? At one point you mentioned stairs. DAS doesn't remove stairs but if you have a mobility issue and can;t do stairs they will direct you to an alternative enterance with or without DAS.

 

[kaytieeldr]

@DisneyOma, @Mrsjvb, @5kidsmommy - thank you all for such sensible, reasonable responses!

 

[gap2368]

So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.

Take a moment next time your at Disney and look around at how many people are using mobility device and if half of them did not have a mobility and got a DAS and got a return time then went and found a place to sit all the place to sit would be taken Every trip I have been on I have seen someone complaining and there not being places to site. ( my dad said something about the lack of sets just over a year after he walked the AT ( Georgia to Maine) so he has no mobility problems at all). You can do what you want but Disney is thinking about the bigger picture there are just too many people that cN not walk or stand all day at Disney for them to accommodate them any other way then to rent or use a mobility device. I would love to do the standby lines ( 7DMT FOP looks amazing to me ) I have spent countless hours at the park hiding in a corner sitting on the ground crying because I would love to do the standby lines because I miss out on them yes it would be nice to chose our disabilities but we can’t but place do not blame your lack of going back to Disney on anything but you do not want to use a tool to help you becuse it is nothing less and nothing more then that. I have read on here so many people that fought not to use a mobility device and once they did they realized how much it helped them. No one is saying you must have your device with you all the time. Like I said most will not notice you have a mobility device since they no longer go to the front of the line they wait in lines just like everyone else.

Anyways I hope you see that it is your attitude that is preventing you from going to Disney not Disney preventing you from going. And I do not mean for this to come across as harsh I have fought the use of tool that would help me with my disabilities and had much worst out comes then just not going to a theme park. ( failed the first two semesters of college because I did not want the support from the schools disability department ) so I have been there too with not wanting to use a tool that was available to me

 

[Betty Rohrer]

That's the thing. It doesn't appear to be for people with disabilities. It appears to be for people with selective disabilities. People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.



I'm sad to see your DD has to deal with that. I've read enough threads on this board to know how much judgement there is out there. It's great that there are people here who couldn't imagine anyone doing that, but it definitely happens.



People with diabetes need insulin all the time. The same goes for those who are incontinent. That's not equivalent to people who can walk with or without a cane, crutches, etc. on a normal basis, but with need to rent a wheelchair or ECV at Disney, because they won't accommodate them otherwise.

I really don't get your attitude. It's totally uncalled for. I make it clear that I'm perfectly fine with not going to Disney, if they can't provide a way for me to not stand for a long time or climb stairs. They don't own me anything. There are plenty of other places we can vacations.

I also tour with a cane now and you will be routed around any steps. how do I know, the CM near the steps on Splash Mountain sent me on the wheelchair route and I did not need DAS or anything to be sent that way. on Toy Story Mania I was sent to the new track which has no steps again no DAS needed the CM just sent me that way. I didn't even need to ask about missing the steps

 

[matthewthompson87]

I can say with a pretty fair amount of certainty that DAS users are not crushing double the amount of stuff compared to a non DAS user on a given day.

YES. THIS.

The (relatively short) queueafter being admitted for a DAS return time on some attractions can be challenging enough to need to find someplace quiet to decompress before moving onto another activity or attraction.

I understand that impression DAS might enable the ability for someone to “do more”, but that fundamentally mischaracterizes how visiting a theme park with a DAS qualifying disability really works in practice.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

... I can say with a pretty fair amount of certainty that DAS users are not crushing double the amount of stuff compared to a non DAS user on a given day...

YES. THIS.

The (relatively short) queueafter being admitted for a DAS return time on some attractions can be challenging enough to need to find someplace quiet to decompress before moving onto another activity or attraction.

I understand that impression DAS might enable the ability for someone to “do more”, but that fundamentally mischaracterizes how visiting a theme park with a DAS qualifying disability really works in practice.

Totally agree. Before DAS (and MP!) there were many, many days when we didn't ride anything (= 0) at DL or DCA. It just wasn't physically possible for me to handle the queue and the ride together, FP or standby. With DAS, we could do one or two rides in a visit sometimes -- a big improvement! With DAS and MP? I still remember the first time we did 4 whole rides in one day -- DH was so proud of me! We have friends who use their DAS to do one ride each visit -- and that's a lot for them -- and without that help, they would not be able to do any rides at all. DAS doesn't secretly help us do "double the stuff" -- DAS allows many of us to do any of the stuff at all. And for that, we are very grateful.

 

[lorenae]

That's the thing. It doesn't appear to be for people with disabilities. It appears to be for people with selective disabilities. People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.



I'm sad to see your DD has to deal with that. I've read enough threads on this board to know how much judgement there is out there. It's great that there are people here who couldn't imagine anyone doing that, but it definitely happens.

This post brought tears to my eyes. I have mobility issues, but that is not why I use DAS. It’s not “selective disabilities”- it’s those disabilities that don’t allow me to wait in a standard line.

I still sometimes have to leave the FP line after waiting for my DAS return time (7dmt especially- horribly loud and ‘frantic’ to me, Test track- too much standing with people pressing in, even with the DAS) so I ride less than you’d think. But DAS gives me the opportunity to at least make the attempt.

 

[gap2368]

This post brought tears to my eyes. I have mobility issues, but that is not why I use DAS. It’s not “selective disabilities”- it’s those disabilities that don’t allow me to wait in a standard line.

I still sometimes have to leave the FP line after waiting for my DAS return time (7dmt especially- horribly loud and ‘frantic’ to me, Test track- too much standing with people pressing in, even with the DAS) so I ride less than you’d think. But DAS gives me the opportunity to at least make the attempt.

Would using some type of mobility device ( if you are not already) and then when you get to the room where you stand on the number ask to be in the back of the room where you will not have people pushing up on you

 

[ToyStoryManiaMouse]

Guessing Attorney Dogali is/was expecting a huge payoff from Disney so it's a pay if you win situation. I'm glad Disney is fighting this instead of just paying like usual. Living in FL, I saw the rampant abuse. I just chaperoned a field trip there where one of the kids told me their parents would have the kids fake being disabled (I won't use the word she used and really had to bite my tongue that day!) to get the GAC. That's just one of many stories I have. A group of adults looping Toy Story with a GAC because one 'had a bad back', yet they could golf all day. I feel like the profoundly disabled have fallen through the cracks due to abuse but I don't know how they could gage being profoundly disabled or not.

It's not only "profoundly disabled" people who benefit from accommodations. I don't look disabled. I do need a DAS pass. But I do not agree with front of the line access for anyone. Just not fair and it invites people to take advantage of the system.

 

[Tiggerish]

This case went to trial in February. On Monday the court issued its ruling and decided against the Plaintiff and in favor of Disney. Here is a link to a discussion of the decision. https://www.disboards.com/threads/disney-wins-first-das-ada-discrimination-lawsuit.3805252/

 

[OurBigTrip]

I just finished reading the decision, and I’ll just say that the mother in this case came off looking pretty bad.

Glad the judge decided as she did .

 

[Boopuff]

I also read the ruling. Some interesting facts were presented (I found the percent of "non-DAS" guests getting the shaft on some of the popular rides. No wonder some of the top-tier rides were always a no-go! Glad this has been resolved. I'm sure the mom in this case will (hopefully) do her homework before schlepping 10 people to WDW. (I love that they travel in a pack of 10)

 

[fabfemmeboy]

I was really interested in the statistics Disney had compiled about the GAC, the DAS, the impact on various tiers of rides, etc., and I agree - especially now with things like ROTR or FOP, people being able to essentially lie to get front of the line privileges would really hurt everyone else. Obviously not everyone on GAC lied or abused it, but there were apparently a significant number who did and presumably would again if given the chance. From a legal standpoint, this was a very simple, textual decision, but the court clearly came down factually on the side of Disney - which I agree with. Mom definitely didn't come off looking good, especially given that a) she chose not to help prepare him at all and assumed he would be given whatever they asked for, and b) her son's own professionals have more faith in him and his abilities

 

[DisneyOma]

I was really interested in the statistics Disney had compiled about the GAC, the DAS, the impact on various tiers of rides, etc., and I agree - especially now with things like ROTR or FOP, people being able to essentially lie to get front of the line privileges would really hurt everyone else. Obviously not everyone on GAC lied or abused it, but there were apparently a significant number who did and presumably would again if given the chance. From a legal standpoint, this was a very simple, textual decision, but the court clearly came down factually on the side of Disney - which I agree with. Mom definitely didn't come off looking good, especially given that a) she chose not to help prepare him at all and assumed he would be given whatever they asked for, and b) her son's own professionals have more faith in him and his abilities

Could you clarify that part I put in red? I didn't see any of that explained in the brief, and Disney has all along said the change to DAS was because instant repetitive FOTL access was the problem, not people pretending to have a disability.