Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[smiths02]

Well technically this isn't true, the GAC was a workable solution in theory and thus 'reasonable'. If it weren't then it wouldn't have been implemented in the first place. It became 'unreasonable' due to the nature of the process and abuse of its privileges by those that were willing to do it.... which is cited in the Disney Court documents and the article itself.

The reason there is so much ambiguity around the process is the adjudication of the word 'reasonable'...... highlighted perfectly by the discourse in this thread and the subjective opinion of what it means to different people.

It also became more unreasonable as crowds have increased and as more people with disabilities began going to the park and accessing GAC. Somewhere, there is a quote from court that GAC users were a small percentage of park goers but were a huge percentage of people riding a popular ride. The rides only have a certain capacity everyday.

https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201309/3695/
"This isn't going to be easy for some Disney visitors to hear. But let's consider this a little tough love. The reason why Disney is ending the GAC program isn't because it was abused too much by people without disabilities. Disney killed the GAC because it was used too much by people with disabilities.

As we've written before, Disney did not intend to create a system that gave visitors with disabilities no-wait, front-of-the-line access to its attractions. That's simply the way the system evolved, for maximum operational efficiency. It simply was easier for Disney attractions personnel to move parties with a disabled visitor immediately onto a ride via the exit, than to make them wait and block the exit area, or to come back later.

Getting to ride without waiting invited abuse, which is why Disney adopted the GAC program, to make visitors with disabilities get a card from Disney so that individual attraction cast members wouldn't have to bear the responsibility of deciding who deserved special access. That helped put a stop to groups of kids renting a wheelchair to skip lines, but the system eventually grew unsustainable."

 

[cmwade77]

Smiths02, the reason the GAC was discontinued is indeed that there was a lot of abuse going on, both in the form of people that didn't need it using it and in the form of guests with disabilities selling their "services" to get people to the front of the line. It definitely wasn't because too many people with disabilities were using it legitimately. But the sheer nature of having those with disabilities wait before returning does indeed end up spreading them out making it easier to work them into the queues with minimal waits on their part and minimal impact to the wait times for others.

By the way, Disney had a card system long before the GAC existed, which had its own issues. The bottom line is no system is going to be perfect, but Disney and others can see the shortcomings and should find viable solutions for them with any system that is in place.

 

[Lilsia]

Smiths02, the reason the GAC was discontinued is indeed that there was a lot of abuse going on, both in the form of people that didn't need it using it and in the form of guests with disabilities selling their "services" to get people to the front of the line. It definitely wasn't because too many people with disabilities were using it legitimately. But the sheer nature of having those with disabilities wait before returning does indeed end up spreading them out making it easier to work them into the queues with minimal waits on their part and minimal impact to the wait times for others.

By the way, Disney had a card system long before the GAC existed, which had its own issues. The bottom line is no system is going to be perfect, but Disney and others can see the shortcomings and should find viable solutions for them with any system that is in place.

I think it is actually both. We have been going for over 2 decades and have seen the evolution of the parks and they dynamics of the guests. There are many many more people with mobility issues going with the advent of the ECV. It opened WDW up to so many more people. Before you only had the wheelchair that someone had to push and so it was more of a hassle to the group and unless your family dynamic was able to push the person with mobility issues, then they just would not go. Yes GAC was not supposed to be a front of the line benefit but as others have pointed out, it became that way because it was just easier for the cast member to put that person right through. Then when word got out you had families start to rent a wheelchair that they did not need to take advantage. Then came the ECVs and with it more and more people making the alternate ride entrances busier. That article did not help with the publicity side of things, but I think that by that point Disney was already well aware that the current system was not sustainable. I actually think that for the first couple of years after they changed to GAC that the amount of ECVs had dropped because there was no more benefit to it and they are actually a pita. Disney had been going above and beyond in accommodating those with special needs, which were a small minority back then. Now the numbers of special need people going to WDW has really increased. Couple that with how crowded the parks are now, I can see why people get frustrated and lie to get DAS. It is no fun for anyone to wait in line for over an hour for every single ride. I don't think anyone should ever have FOTL access(except make a wish), no matter what your disability is.

 

[cmwade77]

I think it is actually both. We have been going for over 2 decades and have seen the evolution of the parks and they dynamics of the guests. There are many many more people with mobility issues going with the advent of the ECV. It opened WDW up to so many more people. Before you only had the wheelchair that someone had to push and so it was more of a hassle to the group and unless your family dynamic was able to push the person with mobility issues, then they just would not go. Yes GAC was not supposed to be a front of the line benefit but as others have pointed out, it became that way because it was just easier for the cast member to put that person right through. Then when word got out you had families start to rent a wheelchair that they did not need to take advantage. Then came the ECVs and with it more and more people making the alternate ride entrances busier. That article did not help with the publicity side of things, but I think that by that point Disney was already well aware that the current system was not sustainable. I actually think that for the first couple of years after they changed to GAC that the amount of ECVs had dropped because there was no more benefit to it and they are actually a pita. Disney had been going above and beyond in accommodating those with special needs, which were a small minority back then. Now the numbers of special need people going to WDW has really increased. Couple that with how crowded the parks are now, I can see why people get frustrated and lie to get DAS. It is no fun for anyone to wait in line for over an hour for every single ride. I don't think anyone should ever have FOTL access(except make a wish), no matter what your disability is.

To a certain degree, you are right about there being more that are disabled going to Disney World, but it isn't because of ECVs, they have been around since the 60's, it is more because there are more disabled people (percentage wise) in the world today, there are many reasons for this, both good and bad. For example, we are more accommodating now, so people that in the past would be shut-ins or perhaps have even died because of a disability can live a happy and healthy life with some relatively minor inconveniences compared to the past. There are bad reasons as well, but I would prefer not to dive too far down that road.

I do agree that no one should have FOTL (except those who are terminally ill and can prove it, proof could be required here because it is above and beyond providing equal access). I think the DAS is a good middle ground, I do think some improvements can be made that really won't have an impact on it being abused, for example allow those with a DAS to request a return time from within the app and if there are circumstances where exceptions need to be made, for example a 2 hour line at 30 minutes before park closing, then they need to go to the attraction and/or a guest service kiosk as applicable.

 

[Lilsia]

To a certain degree, you are right about there being more that are disabled going to Disney World, but it isn't because of ECVs, they have been around since the 60's, it is more because there are more disabled people (percentage wise) in the world today, there are many reasons for this, both good and bad. For example, we are more accommodating now, so people that in the past would be shut-ins or perhaps have even died because of a disability can live a happy and healthy life with some relatively minor inconveniences compared to the past. There are bad reasons as well, but I would prefer not to dive too far down that road.

I do agree that no one should have FOTL (except those who are terminally ill and can prove it, proof could be required here because it is above and beyond providing equal access). I think the DAS is a good middle ground, I do think some improvements can be made that really won't have an impact on it being abused, for example allow those with a DAS to request a return time from within the app and if there are circumstances where exceptions need to be made, for example a 2 hour line at 30 minutes before park closing, then they need to go to the attraction and/or a guest service kiosk as applicable.

While ECVs have been around a long time, they were not readily available as they are now. We all saw the hoveround commercials and they were very expensive. The rental companies that are around now that rent at a reasonable rate have not been around that long, relatively speaking. Most of these businesses have only been around for a decade or so. You are right that more people are getting the care they need now and are living longer with disabilities as well as there are just more people in the world. The US population grows by over 3 million a year. So many more are born then are dying. All of this contributes to the numbers of disabled people going to the parks. DAS is a fair system. Nothing is ever going to be perfect.

 

[DisneyOma]

Smiths02, the reason the GAC was discontinued is indeed that there was a lot of abuse going on, both in the form of people that didn't need it using it and in the form of guests with disabilities selling their "services" to get people to the front of the line. It definitely wasn't because too many people with disabilities were using it legitimately. But the sheer nature of having those with disabilities wait before returning does indeed end up spreading them out making it easier to work them into the queues with minimal waits on their part and minimal impact to the wait times for others.

By the way, Disney had a card system long before the GAC existed, which had its own issues. The bottom line is no system is going to be perfect, but Disney and others can see the shortcomings and should find viable solutions for them with any system that is in place.

Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.

ETA - Okay, now I see my mistake - it's at Disneyland, not WDW! Sorry to the person who pointed that out and I didn't understand why!

 

[serenitynow]

Also, as the large baby boomer population ages, the percent of disabled guests has risen. There are a number of conditions that can arise as one ages, unfortunately.

 

[paisleys]

I believe DAS was also long in the works to accompany the launch of MDE app and booking FP+ out months ahead, which was years in the making. Launching that with the existing GAC would not have worked with how long the FP lines were becoming due to GAC. You cannot ask people to book a FP months out only to have them wait in an hour long FP line. It's not the story about the rich hiring the disabled, which was just a few months before DAS. It take years to plan, program, test and launch such massive IT rollouts as MDE.

Also, as the large baby boomer population ages, the percent of disabled guests has risen. There are a number of conditions that can arise as one ages, unfortunately.

^And this is so true. Also, next time you're at WDW take a look around. People are not as healthy as they were years ago. It only will get worse as people get older.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

The rise of the internet has also led to a rise in people aware of disability accommodations. It has opened up opportunities for those that need the accommodations, but it has also made it easy for people who don’t need the accommodations to figure out how to obtain them.

 

[Ciao Mickey]

There's nothing stopping anyone at any economic or income level from lying. Except ethics, morals, guilt, compassion, sensibility... never mind that the DAS doesn't do what the GAC evolved into.

I think compassion and guilt will go out the window if Disney will allow certain groups of people to get front of the line access and be allowed to stay on a ride however long they wanted. Then the ‘sensible’ thing for everyone to do is declare they need a GAC card.

Just like when people rented wheelchairs years ago to get front of the line access, people will claim they need a GAC card too.

Lines at wdw are long enough, can you imagine what it would be like if they allowed you to stay on a ride as long as you wanted?

I wonder if all of these lawsuits will eventually lead Disney to do away with the GAC.

 

[Disneylvr]

I think compassion and guilt will go out the window if Disney will allow certain groups of people to get front of the line access and be allowed to stay on a ride however long they wanted. Then the ‘sensible’ thing for everyone to do is declare they need a GAC card.

Just like when people rented wheelchairs years ago to get front of the line access, people will claim they need a GAC card too.

Lines at wdw are long enough, can you imagine what it would be like if they allowed you to stay on a ride as long as you wanted?

I wonder if all of these lawsuits will eventually lead Disney to do away with the GAC.

I cringe every time I read "front of the line access." With the GAC (or the current DAS) it was/is never front of the line access. It is end of the FP line access, and with the DAS it is end of the FP line after waiting outside the line for the length of the standby line minus 10 minutes. Disney already did away with the GAC, I assume you meant the DAS? If Disney did away with the DAS then there could be a legitimate reason for a lawsuit, in my opinion. As a parent of a teen with severe, non-verbal autism we are not a party to the current lawsuit, the DAS works perfectly for our situation in combination with FP+. Having everything on an app has REALLY helped although I do wish you could schedule a DAS return time from the app. With the GAC, parents didn't necessarily have to do any planning really (making Fast Passes, an itinerary etc.). You could just enter any FP line when and wherever you wanted. With the DAS in combination with FP+ you have to make careful planning very much like any other guest. And you know what, in my situation it actually makes us feel good to be almost like every one else for once.

 

[Ciao Mickey]

It also became more unreasonable as crowds have increased and as more people with disabilities began going to the park and accessing GAC. Somewhere, there is a quote from court that GAC users were a small percentage of park goers but were a huge percentage of people riding a popular ride. The rides only have a certain capacity everyday.

https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201309/3695/
"This isn't going to be easy for some Disney visitors to hear. But let's consider this a little tough love. The reason why Disney is ending the GAC program isn't because it was abused too much by people without disabilities. Disney killed the GAC because it was used too much by people with disabilities.

As we've written before, Disney did not intend to create a system that gave visitors with disabilities no-wait, front-of-the-line access to its attractions. That's simply the way the system evolved, for maximum operational efficiency. It simply was easier for Disney attractions personnel to move parties with a disabled visitor immediately onto a ride via the exit, than to make them wait and block the exit area, or to come back later.

Getting to ride without waiting invited abuse, which is why Disney adopted the GAC program, to make visitors with disabilities get a card from Disney so that individual attraction cast members wouldn't have to bear the responsibility of deciding who deserved special access. That helped put a stop to groups of kids renting a wheelchair to skip lines, but the system eventually grew unsustainable."

I cringe every time I read "front of the line access." With the GAC (or the current DAS) it was/is never front of the line access. It is end of the FP line access, and with the DAS it is end of the FP line after waiting outside the line for the length of the standby line minus 10 minutes. Disney already did away with the GAC, I assume you meant the DAS? If Disney did away with the DAS then there could be a legitimate reason for a lawsuit, in my opinion. As a parent of a teen with severe, non-verbal autism we are not a party to the current lawsuit, the DAS works perfectly for our situation in combination with FP+. Having everything on an app has REALLY helped although I do wish you could schedule a DAS return time from the app. With the GAC, parents didn't necessarily have to do any planning really (making Fast Passes, an itinerary etc.). You could just enter any FP line when and wherever you wanted. With the DAS in combination with FP+ you have to make careful planning very much like any other guest. And you know what, in my situation it actually makes us feel good to be almost like every one else for once.

I apologize for confusing the two different cards-we never had to use them.

Both of my parents were in wheelchairs and years ago there were not as many people in wheelchairs as there are now. Back then, on most of the rides they were able to go on, cast members would direct us to a different entrance right from the start. We did get on most rides sooner than the people waiting in the regular line, so it was front of the line access in a way.

Word got out you could get front of the line access if you were in a wheelchair. You started seeing people renting wheelchairs to bypass lines. Disney finally got wise to the situation and changed their queues to allow wheelchairs to stay with their group in lines.

My family has been going to wdw since 1974 and much has changed over the years. There was a time when we could reserve wheelchairs at the deluxe resorts and have use of them for free instead of bringing our own. I don’t know if they do that anymore because of the sheer number of people who are in wheelchairs today.

Like someone upthread said, the population is aging and more people with disabilities go to wdw. It’s impossible to please everyone and make exceptions for some.

If the lawsuits continue Disney might feel that it is not worth keeping the DAS/GAC. As long as they provide equal access to all isn’t that all they are required to do under the ADA law?

 

[siren0119]

If the lawsuits continue Disney might feel that it is not worth keeping the DAS/GAC. As long as they provide equal access to all isn’t that all they are required to do under the ADA law?

When it comes to mobility access, they've made changes to many ride lines to allow wheelchair/scooter access without needing a "special" entrance, so that seems to be better in hand (though some who were enjoying FOTL access due to being in a wheelchair might have an issue with the fact that they can use the lines now). But with things like autism, ADHD and other cognitive disabilities, the sheer length of the lines IS the problem and the DAS is the best way to accommodate them - providing an alternative to standing in lines which could fully prevent those kids from accessing the rides at all, which still requires a wait just not in the queue. I can't think of anything that would eliminate that barrier to entry and still be in compliance with ADA, but I'm sure Disney has the legal team to find it if it can be found.

 

[Aladora]

Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.

RSR was the first ride at DCA to implement return times. In fact, it was limited to one return time per day. The kiosk to get the RT was a little hidden and I remember having trouble finding it the first tine

 

[Lilsia]

RSR was the first ride at DCA to implement return times. In fact, it was limited to one return time per day. The kiosk to get the RT was a little hidden and I remember having trouble finding it the first tine

That was after they started having so many issues with repeat GAC at that ride.

 

[cmwade77]

Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.

There is no RSR at WDW, at DCA and it was one that did have issues to the point they had to start doing return times there, but that was as much about spacing out wheelchairs as it was keeping things fair.

 

[SueM in MN]

I apologize for confusing the two different cards-we never had to use them.

Both of my parents were in wheelchairs and years ago there were not as many people in wheelchairs as there are now. Back then, on most of the rides they were able to go on, cast members would direct us to a different entrance right from the start. We did get on most rides sooner than the people waiting in the regular line, so it was front of the line access in a way.

Word got out you could get front of the line access if you were in a wheelchair. You started seeing people renting wheelchairs to bypass lines. Disney finally got wise to the situation and changed their ques to allow wheelchairs to stay with their group in lines.

My family has been going to wdw since 1974 and much has changed over the years. There was a time when we could reserve wheelchairs at the deluxe resorts and have use of them for free instead of bringing our own. I don’t know if they do that anymore because of the sheer number of people who are in wheelchairs today.

Like someone upthread said, the population is aging and more people with disabilities go to wdw. It’s impossible to please everyone and make exceptions for some.

If the lawsuits continue Disney might feel that it is not worth keeping the DAS/GAC. As long as they provide equal access to all isn’t that all they are required to do under the ADA law?

Before 1990, attractions were not required by law to be accessible. Most attractions were designed with lines that delivered a steady stream of walking guests into the attraction. In many cases, the exit was somewhere else entirely.
Most parks tried to accommodate guests with disabilities- which sometimes meant having them enter thru the exit since it was the only place a disabled guest could get in (alternate entrances).
Even though many people’s perception was that guests with wheelchairs/mobility devices got on right away (front of the line access), in most cases, it was not much sooner than they would have gotten on if waiting in line. Our experience was that we did often split our group, with part going in the ‘regular’ line and part thru the ‘alternate entrance’, so we actually had a measure that showed there was not that much difference.

Alternate entrances were not much of an issue when there were only a few people with disabilities in the park.
We started coming to WDW with a person using a wheelchair in 1982. We sometimes went an entire day without seeing another person using a wheelchair and could often go a whole week without seeing someone using an ECV.
Both wheelchairs and ECVs were that uncommon.

Starting in about 1988 or so, attractions started to be built or renovated with lines that were wheelchair accessible. Many of those that could not be totally wheelchair accessible were accessible until they reached a point that was not accessible and at that point there was/is a wheelchair bypass. An example of that is Splash Mountain, which is accessible until it gets to the stairway.

 

[SueM in MN]

The text after this paragraph was actually written just before the Guest Assistance Card was discontinued and DAS began. One of the news stories that got a lot of articles and TV play at the time was about rich people from New York City hiring disabled guests in an attempt to get thru lines quicker. Small World was an attraction specifically mentioned as one where the ‘tour guides’ got faster access because of the ‘handicapped entrance’. I laughed when I read that because our experience at Small World was usually pretty much what these pictures showed - a longer wait. And, most of the other attractions mentioned had Mainstream lines, not handicapped entrances. So, I don’t know if the guests who hired the ‘disabled tour guides’ were just really gullible or were lied/exaggerated to about what the wait in the regular line was. Also, rich people could have hired a REAL Disney tour guide, which would be a lot easier than connecting up with and paying a stranger. There was some abuse of that kind, but I don’t think (from our experience at WDW) that it was as prevalent as the news media made it sound.

The population is aging and there are more people going to Disney parks with disabilities all the time. They simply could not continue to accommodate them all under the way the Guest Assistance Card was working.
This article explains it very well.
http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201309/3695/
And this picture shows what can happen when a line gets overloaded with guests with special needs.

This is the handicapped line for Small World. Most lines handle guests with mobility devices thru the regular line, but some, like Small World, have a handicapped entrance because the regular line is not accessible.
All the people you can see in the photo are in the handicapped line and their wait will probably is about one hour (based on our experience with multiple times waiting in that line). The actual entrance of the handicapped line is in in front of the man and woman wearing orange shirts. To their right, you can see someone trying to get out - just behind her is the main ride exit.
The 'regular' entrance is the the left of the picture, where you can see some signs.
This is a picture from the front of the ride at the same time.

You can see the 25 minute wait posted and see how widely spaced people are in the regular line.
This is one of the things that Disney is trying to correct with the new program.

 

[SueM in MN]

Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.

Yes, it was Radiator Springs Racers.
The ride can accommodate 20,000 riders a day. According to this article, upwards of 5,000 people a day were using Guest Assistance Cards to enter thru the FastPass line each day.
In this article, scroll down to the story titled “Line Kings”.
http://micechat.com/miceage/allutz/al091812a.htm

A lot of the abuse was guests using GAC riding over and over again.
In one part of the lawsuit, Disney’s testimony was that in 2013, approximately 3% of guests were issued GAC, but guests using GACs accounted for 30% of riders on one popular ride. Many of them rode it 3 or 4 times.
I was reading a lot of social media when GAC changed to DAS; it was not unusual to to read that someone’s routine was to ride a popular attraction 6-8 times in a row, exiting the ride and going right back into the Fastpass line to ride again with their GAC. These were usually popular attractions with long waits in the Standby line. The writers didn’t see this as abuse because it was what their child expected.
In one I remember reading right after DAS started, the mother was complaining that they would not be able to do their usual Christmas trip to Disneyland. Their Christmas tradition included watching the Christmas parade, having something to eat and riding 4 or 5 high demand tides before leaving the park about 4-5 hours later. They lived near Disneyland and posted they did it multiple times during Christmas break. Again, she didn’t see it as abuse.

 

[DisneyOma]

There is no RSR at WDW, at DCA and it was one that did have issues to the point they had to start doing return times there, but that was as much about spacing out wheelchairs as it was keeping things fair.

I think SueM has provided an excellent link in her excellent post that clarifies what I was stating. And yes, I know it was at Disneyland. It doesn't matter where it is. I was pointing out that it was the catalyst. The GAC was taking over the FP queues, so the policy needed to be revamped. It had nothing to do with guests in wheelchairs, from all that I have read about it. Do you have more articles and info we could read that talks about wheelchairs? I'd be interested.

cmwade77 - my apologies - I see now that I stated WDW instead of Disneyland, and you were just correcting my mistake! Now I get it! (whacks self on forehead)