Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[Disneylvr]

There was some speculation about wanting FP line access and waiting no more than 15 minutes, but part of my fascination with the case is that the plaintiffs haven't been very specific on what exactly they want Disney to do.

Disneylvr - completely anecdotal, but I was on a trip to WDW back in 2008-ish and sprained my ankle toward the end, so I had about 2 days in a wheelchair. It equated to basically "walking on" a lot of the rides in MK when wait times were generally 15-20 minutes. I somehow doubt that would be possible any longer even without the DAS changes!

We waited 30-40 minutes at the Splash Mountain wheelchair entrance, which is the exit of the ride, because there were at least 10 families ahead of us in line. A CM explained that only so many with mobility issues could be on the ride at the same time. Toy Story Mania and It’s a Small World are also attractions where we seemed to have longer waits with the GAC and “may use alternate entrance” stamp. Back in those days we did tend to visit WDW during more crowded weeks like spring break and Memorial Day which I am sure was a factor as well.

katieeldr, I know the news stories keep using the phrasing “front of the line” but are they quoting the actual lawsuit? “Front of the line” = FP line without the virtual wait outside the line? Or are these lawsuit families actually wanting MAW type access!?!

 

[kaytieeldr]

katieeldr, I know the news stories keep using the phrasing “front of the line” but are they quoting the actual lawsuit?

I don't know.Stupid Amazon Fire. Anyway, this http://www.dogalilaw.com/disney-autism-ada-lawsuit.html is the law firm website. All documents are available as .pdf; scroll all the way to the bottom and select document D1 - the actual complaint.

 

[Disneylvr]

I don't know.Stupid Amazon Fire. Anyway, this http://www.dogalilaw.com/disney-autism-ada-lawsuit.html is the law firm website. All documents are available as .pdf; scroll all the way to the bottom and select document D1 - the actual complaint.

I have read a lot of the document and have not seen any mention of "front of the line" access. I have seen the phrases "minimal, manageable waits" and "plaintiffs have never sought either immediate access or priority access." The later was in response to the DAS usage statement that says "This service does not provide immediate or priority access."

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

There was some speculation about wanting FP line access and waiting no more than 15 minutes, but part of my fascination with the case is that the plaintiffs haven't been very specific on what exactly they want Disney to do.

Disneylvr - completely anecdotal, but I was on a trip to WDW back in 2008-ish and sprained my ankle toward the end, so I had about 2 days in a wheelchair. It equated to basically "walking on" a lot of the rides in MK when wait times were generally 15-20 minutes. I somehow doubt that would be possible any longer even without the DAS changes!

We had a similar experience.

I was simply using a cane and wanted to make sure that I didn't have to get into a line with stairs.

I tried to stop Cast Members from ushering me to the front of the line. Rarely did it work.

This was in Sept of 2006. Average wait times were 15-20 minutes.

 

[Lauren in NC]

I have read a lot of the document and have not seen any mention of "front of the line" access. I have seen the phrases "minimal, manageable waits" and "plaintiffs have never sought either immediate access or priority access." The later was in response to the DAS usage statement that says "This service does not provide immediate or priority access."

I don't think I've ever seen the plaintiffs say they want FOTL access. It seems like a lot of (not particularly Disney knowledgeable) journalists have used that term without understanding what it means in Disney terms.

In terms of "minimal, manageable" waits, I'm honestly not sure how Disney could be expected to provide that. How could they guarantee a 20 minute wait when even FP lines sometimes require a wait of much longer than that depending on the number of guests and ride breakdowns? I'm really curious as to what exactly the plaintiffs think Disney can do. I think a lot of this has to do with the increased attendance at the parks, honestly, and perhaps not as much the DAS changes. But, again, I never actually used anything prior to DAS.

 

[Lilsia]

We waited 30-40 minutes at the Splash Mountain wheelchair entrance, which is the exit of the ride, because there were at least 10 families ahead of us in line. A CM explained that only so many with mobility issues could be on the ride at the same time. Toy Story Mania and It’s a Small World are also attractions where we seemed to have longer waits with the GAC and “may use alternate entrance” stamp. Back in those days we did tend to visit WDW during more crowded weeks like spring break and Memorial Day which I am sure was a factor as well.

katieeldr, I know the news stories keep using the phrasing “front of the line” but are they quoting the actual lawsuit? “Front of the line” = FP line without the virtual wait outside the line? Or are these lawsuit families actually wanting MAW type access!?!

So you actually DID get FOTL access but there were others there before you. You did not go through a regular line or get a return time, you went immediately to the loading area. If there were not others in front of you then you would have immediately boarded. You reference only a couple of rides that you had to wait because there were other there. What about all of the other rides? I bet you got right on to them. Besides, you are talking about a mobility issue that needs a special vehicle. You have to expect that there will be others in your situation that want to ride too. That is completely different then what the lawsuit is about. These people have no mobility issues and can get right on, this is what they want, to go up to any and all rides and just walk through and get on.

 

[Lilsia]

I call BS on some of the things the lawsuit claims. It contradicts itself over and over. For example it says that they used to go to guest services and get their GAC, but then complain now that they have to go to guests services to get their DAS. One even says that they have to go daily to get the DAS, which we all know is not true. And then they go on to complain how the lines are longer at guest services then they want them to be. Well no crap. The lines are longer for everyone because WDW has become so much busier then it used to be. That has nothing to do with whether or not you have need of a DAS. Some of them are even saying that Disney caused them emotional distress and want monetary compensations for it. This is really a no win situation. I understand that these people feel that the only way that they can experience WDW is the way it used to be when the parks were slower and they could, in essence, go to the front of the line. But I don't think that is sustainable anymore. New survey shows that 1 in 45 kids has autism, so more and more are going to WDW. There will be waits, rides will go down or close. If this lawsuit goes against Disney then it will just open it back up to the abuse.

 

[OurBigTrip]

IMO, it doesn’t matter whether GAC gave immediate access or not. The bottom line is that these people are suing for the ability to enter an attraction without waiting their turn, even if that wait is outside of the line.

If that’s the only way their children can access Disney, then Disney isn’t for them and they should vacation elsewhere .

 

[Disneylvr]

So you actually DID get FOTL access but there were others there before you. You did not go through a regular line or get a return time, you went immediately to the loading area. If there were not others in front of you then you would have immediately boarded. You reference only a couple of rides that you had to wait because there were other there. What about all of the other rides? I bet you got right on to them. Besides, you are talking about a mobility issue that needs a special vehicle. You have to expect that there will be others in your situation that want to ride too. That is completely different then what the lawsuit is about. These people have no mobility issues and can get right on, this is what they want, to go up to any and all rides and just walk through and get on.

MOST of the time with GAC the alternate entrance stamp got us into the FP line, at Splash, It’s a Small World, Spaceship Earth, and Haunted Mansion it was at the exit for the first few years when daughter also had the stroller as wheelchair stamp on her GAC. I cannot remember a time when we just walked on a ride but I do remember minimal waits of less than 5 minutes. Typically our wait in FP line during the later GAC years without the stroller as wheelchair stamp and with the current DAS is about 5-20 minutes. Ocassionlly, but not often, it has been longer as mentioned above, or less than 5 minutes.

 

[Lilsia]

MOST of the time with GAC the alternate entrance stamp got us into the FP line, at Splash, It’s a Small World, Spaceship Earth, and Haunted Mansion it was at the exit for the first few years when daughter also had the stroller as wheelchair stamp on her GAC. I cannot remember a time when we just walked on a ride but I do remember minimal waits of less than 5 minutes. Typically our wait in FP line during the later GAC years without the stroller as wheelchair stamp and with the current DAS is about 5-20 minutes. Ocassionlly, but not often, it has been longer as mentioned above, or less than 5 minutes.

That is pretty much instant access. Which is what we have been saying that GAC turned into. That is why there was so much abuse. Who wouldn't want to be able to get right on or only wait a few minutes for every ride for your whole trip. And those who could transfer from a wheelchair/ECV and did not need a special ride vehicle, got right on.

 

[3Gsandme]

I think the over reaching issue is that there isn't just one or even two or three ways to accommodate every single disability in a manner that causes the disabled person the least amount of waiting/trauma/unhappiness/effort. It's just impossible. Disney has two methods for dealing with disabilities. First, they've made nearly all of their rides and queues accessible. If you have a physical disability you can take your mobility device along with you for your comfort and, with a few exceptions, they've cut the special entrances which can sometimes equal a substantially longer wait for a disabled person. They then implemented the GAC/DAS to try to help other special needs individuals who don't have mobility issues and may not be able to wait in traditional lines. With careful planning, you can see that your loved one gets to ride twice in a row or has their wait times significantly limited, but there just isn't a way to see to the nuances of every single person's specific disability and, according to the law, Disney is already dong exactly what they need to.

My kiddo is on the spectrum as well, and we're super lucky that she can wait (even though she doesn't like it, but who does), so I'm definitely sympathetic to the juggling, wrangling, exhaustion and worry, but it's just impossible to dynamically and fairly accommodate disabilities that are so different. What my kiddo needs isn't the same as what another needs. What they need is different from a third and I don't just mean regarding ASD, but disabilities in general. What a person with ASD needs might not be what a person with PTSD needs. It's just too vast and it's kind of disappointing that people are taking a good faith effort like the DAS and suing over it because, really, I'm sure Disney doesn't have to do anything and they're trying to be disability friendly.

 

[SueM in MN]

This is from page 36 of the appeal to the lawsuit:
“In all 44 lawsuits, the complaint contained one count under the ADA for each plaintiff, asserting that (1) they suffered from autism and/or cognitive disabilities, and (2) Disney’s DAS Card lviolated the ADA because it did not allow plaintiffs to go on rides without waiting and in the order they wanted. Plaintiffs sought injunctions requiring Disney to modify the DAS Card to provide additional accommodations.”

From page 44:
“That an across-the-board modification, where proven necessary, does not violate the ADA is illustrated by the fact that plaintiffs actually request a pass system with a uniform ingredient: a guaranteed maximum wait time of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides for all cognitively disabled plaintiffs at all times at all parks. Plaintiffs request this standardized pass to create a “predictable experience” for autistic children.12”

From page 60:
“The parties contest the effect of plaintiffs’ requested relief, which has evolved to this “single fix”: an injunction requiring that Disney guarantee plaintiffs a maximum wait of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides. More specifically, plaintiffs ask this Court to implement this fix by ordering Disney to provide either: (1) a card offering automatic access to the FastPass lines for all rides at all times; or
(2) between 6 and 10 guaranteed Re-ad Passes for the disabled guest and each person in the group. At oral argument, plaintiffs’ counsel expressed a preference for unlimited access to the FastPass lines “for everyone’s administrative burden” and because any number of Re-ad Passes would necessarily be limited.”

 

[Mrsjvb]

Since there is no way to guarantee such things for all park attendees ADA is not being violated as the plaintiffs are not being denied something that others experience as a matter of course.

 

[DisneyWishes14]

This is from page 36 of the appeal to the lawsuit:
“In all 44 lawsuits, the complaint contained one count under the ADA for each plaintiff, asserting that (1) they suffered from autism and/or cognitive disabilities, and (2) Disney’s DAS Card lviolated the ADA because it did not allow plaintiffs to go on rides without waiting and in the order they wanted. Plaintiffs sought injunctions requiring Disney to modify the DAS Card to provide additional accommodations.”

From page 44:
“That an across-the-board modification, where proven necessary, does not violate the ADA is illustrated by the fact that plaintiffs actually request a pass system with a uniform ingredient: a guaranteed maximum wait time of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides for all cognitively disabled plaintiffs at all times at all parks. Plaintiffs request this standardized pass to create a “predictable experience” for autistic children.12”

From page 60:
“The parties contest the effect of plaintiffs’ requested relief, which has evolved to this “single fix”: an injunction requiring that Disney guarantee plaintiffs a maximum wait of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides. More specifically, plaintiffs ask this Court to implement this fix by ordering Disney to provide either: (1) a card offering automatic access to the FastPass lines for all rides at all times; or
(2) between 6 and 10 guaranteed Re-ad Passes for the disabled guest and each person in the group. At oral argument, plaintiffs’ counsel expressed a preference for unlimited access to the FastPass lines “for everyone’s administrative burden” and because any number of Re-ad Passes would necessarily be limited.”

Wow. Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted the ADA, but I don’t think its intent was to create “predictable experiences” and no waiting. Isn’t it simply “reasonable” accommodations and equal access? I just can’t imagine a judge would rule in the plaintiffs’ favor on this? If they did, how would it impact other public spaces?

I’m just a bit flabbergasted by this. I have a DS with an anxiety disorder and other developmental disabilities and do everything in my power to try to take stressors out of the equation when we travel, but unpredictable things happen that are out of my control and, when we are in the parks, out of Disney’s control. Weather, ride malfunctions, etc. Disney can’t guarantee a “predictable experience”.

 

[cmwade77]

Wow. Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted the ADA, but I don’t think its intent was to create “predictable experiences” and no waiting. Isn’t it simply “reasonable” accommodations and equal access? I just can’t imagine a judge would rule in the plaintiffs’ favor on this? If they did, how would it impact other public spaces?

I’m just a bit flabbergasted by this. I have a DS with an anxiety disorder and other developmental disabilities and do everything in my power to try to take stressors out of the equation when we travel, but unpredictable things happen that are out of my control and, when we are in the parks, out of Disney’s control. Weather, ride malfunctions, etc. Disney can’t guarantee a “predictable experience”.

Exactly, ADA requires equal access be provided with no additional cost or proof. Proof can be required if there are additional options that allow for more than equal access, such as always being provided a discounted admission ticket for being disabled, but even if such an item is offered, equal access must still be provided at no additional cost and with no proof required.

It would not be reasonable to expect being able to go straight to the front of every line of every attraction you want to get onto with no wait what so ever. That just can't and shouldn't be done.

 

[arminnie]

This lawsuit really has nothing to do with access - it is totally about $$$$$MONEY$$$$$$.

The original plaintiffs may have started out asking for enhanced access, but once the attorneys took over it became totally about how to extort money out of Disney.

 

[DisneyOma]

This is from page 36 of the appeal to the lawsuit:
“In all 44 lawsuits, the complaint contained one count under the ADA for each plaintiff, asserting that (1) they suffered from autism and/or cognitive disabilities, and (2) Disney’s DAS Card lviolated the ADA because it did not allow plaintiffs to go on rides without waiting and in the order they wanted. Plaintiffs sought injunctions requiring Disney to modify the DAS Card to provide additional accommodations.”

From page 44:
“That an across-the-board modification, where proven necessary, does not violate the ADA is illustrated by the fact that plaintiffs actually request a pass system with a uniform ingredient: a guaranteed maximum wait time of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides for all cognitively disabled plaintiffs at all times at all parks. Plaintiffs request this standardized pass to create a “predictable experience” for autistic children.12”

From page 60:
“The parties contest the effect of plaintiffs’ requested relief, which has evolved to this “single fix”: an injunction requiring that Disney guarantee plaintiffs a maximum wait of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides. More specifically, plaintiffs ask this Court to implement this fix by ordering Disney to provide either: (1) a card offering automatic access to the FastPass lines for all rides at all times; or
(2) between 6 and 10 guaranteed Re-ad Passes for the disabled guest and each person in the group. At oral argument, plaintiffs’ counsel expressed a preference for unlimited access to the FastPass lines “for everyone’s administrative burden” and because any number of Re-ad Passes would necessarily be limited.”

Wow - I think the plaintiffs have lost touch with reality here.

 

[Disneylvr]

IMO, it doesn’t matter whether GAC gave immediate access or not. The bottom line is that these people are suing for the ability to enter an attraction without waiting their turn, even if that wait is outside of the line.

If that’s the only way their children can access Disney, then Disney isn’t for them and they should vacation elsewhere .

The point I was trying to make is that it seems these people are suing for access that seems to go above and beyond the 2013 version of GAC, at least the version we got. Our daughter also has severe, non-verbal autism. I wonder if we can be a witness for Disney as to how we have made the DAS/FP + work with a child at a similar functioning level.

 

[2tinkerbell]

My opinion maybe unpopular. The plaintiffs seem to be asking for more that what ADA requires. That is a given, no matter how it is worded. I read their complaints and I read responses that say things like, "with planning," or "utilizing FP+ and DAS one can go on the same ride a couple of times," etc. I come to where is personal responsibility?

I read the responses of the Moderators here and read how they are making the DAS work for them and their situations. Another example is my DD who is neurologically compromised. One of the problems with her challenge is that she has severe visual perceptual problems and visual integration issues. She can "see" but, she can't "see" if that makes sense. Therefore, we have to make sure we sit as close to front and center as possible and try to limit the amount of visual stuff between her and the main attraction. For example, at the movie theater, ballet, ball games, etc. we have to make sure our seats are such that she is no more than a certain number rows back. My DD has never seen Fantasmic! before. We are going to Disneyland at Christmastime. I am having to purchase a dining package at Disneyland just so my DD can "see" Fantasmic! It is taking personal responsibility. We will probably not eat most of what is on the menu, but, for her to enjoy something, that is what I have to do. We have to be willing to sit on the curb and play card games waiting for a parade just so my DD can "see" the parade. That is what we have to do, that is what it takes. The GAC/DAS doesn't help in this kind of situation. It helps her for the wait times. However, we are willing to pay for MaxPass so that we can accommodate her ourselves. She does a great job advocating for herself and along with that advocating for her needs, she has learned what she needs and how to best accommodate her needs. She has also learned, and I previously learned, what situations bothered her and to avoid them - especially when we couldn't accommodate her needs.

I think this goes along with life. For example, a co-worker was talking about Trick-or-Treating last night. His 5 year old son had issues with a particular "scary house." They learned to avoid houses with scary, "fake" zombie like people in front. They didn't expect the houses to take down their decorations because it upset their son.

Therefore, I don't understand asking/suing for excess accommodations. If your child requires more than the usual accommodations or can't reasonably be accommodated then maybe that isn't the right activity for them. Disney isn't a right.

 

[Lilsia]

My opinion maybe unpopular. The plaintiffs seem to be asking for more that what ADA requires. That is a given, no matter how it is worded. I read their complaints and I read responses that say things like, "with planning," or "utilizing FP+ and DAS one can go on the same ride a couple of times," etc. I come to where is personal responsibility?

I read the responses of the Moderators here and read how they are making the DAS work for them and their situations. Another example is my DD who is neurologically compromised. One of the problems with her challenge is that she has severe visual perceptual problems and visual integration issues. She can "see" but, she can't "see" if that makes sense. Therefore, we have to make sure we sit as close to front and center as possible and try to limit the amount of visual stuff between her and the main attraction. For example, at the movie theater, ballet, ball games, etc. we have to make sure our seats are such that she is no more than a certain number rows back. My DD has never seen Fantasmic! before. We are going to Disneyland at Christmastime. I am having to purchase a dining package at Disneyland just so my DD can "see" Fantasmic! It is taking personal responsibility. We will probably not eat most of what is on the menu, but, for her to enjoy something, that is what I have to do. We have to be willing to sit on the curb and play card games waiting for a parade just so my DD can "see" the parade. That is what we have to do, that is what it takes. The GAC/DAS doesn't help in this kind of situation. It helps her for the wait times. However, we are willing to pay for MaxPass so that we can accommodate her ourselves. She does a great job advocating for herself and along with that advocating for her needs, she has learned what she needs and how to best accommodate her needs. She has also learned, and I previously learned, what situations bothered her and to avoid them - especially when we couldn't accommodate her needs.

I think this goes along with life. For example, a co-worker was talking about Trick-or-Treating last night. His 5 year old son had issues with a particular "scary house." They learned to avoid houses with scary, "fake" zombie like people in front. They didn't expect the houses to take down their decorations because it upset their son.

Therefore, I don't understand asking/suing for excess accommodations. If your child requires more than the usual accommodations or can't reasonably be accommodated then maybe that isn't the right activity for them. Disney isn't a right.

Thank you for your perspective. Personal responsibility has seemed to have taken a back seat to entitlement now it seems. There are those of us who still realize that life is not fair and that no one owes you anything. We all just need to do what we can and what is best for our family. It is horrible when a family is affected by illness, injury, disease. But I don't think there is a family out there that is not affected by something. I hate the argument that some people say that someone has a hard enough life that they deserve something extra. We don't know what the person next to us has gone through. My niece is autistic and my sister has taken her to WDW 2 times. Although she really enjoyed it, there were too many times that it was way to much for her so my sister decided not to go anymore. She said there are plenty of other things that they can do that is not too overwhelming. I think some parents want something "normal" so much that they make bad choices at times.