B2B - NYC to San Juan and San Juan to Miami. - allowed?

[msec]

Hi - I was looking at next year's upcoming fall cruise release as I want to move my current Dec cruise to a cruise later next year...

I was wondering if anyone knows if a B2B from NYC to San Juan and then San Juan to Miami is allowed ? I know there is a 'foreign port' requirement when sailing between US ports - but I don't know if any of these ports satisfy this requirement and therefore would allow this to be done as a back to back cruise..

The specific cruises I am looking at are:

Disney Magic - 10/30/21:

NYC
Sea Day
Bermuda
Sea Day
Tortola
San Juan

Disney Magic - 11/4/2021:

San Juan
Dominican Republic
Sea Day
Castaway Cay
Miami

Thanks for your help !!

 

[Marc D]

That routing is not allowed since you would not visit a ‘foreign distant port’. A stop in a another country is not enough. For the purpose of the PVSA, this is a NYC-Miami cruise. You would need to visit a port in South America or Aruba/Bonaire/Curaçao for any routing taking you from one US port to another to be legal.

That’s why the PC cruises always stop in Columbia. Even the last WBPC cruise, which had to cancel the Cartagena stop for lack of time, still had to make an hour ‘technical stop’ there for the entire routing to be legal. If they had missed the port, DCL would have had to pay a fine per passenger.

The Caribbean islands (outside of the ABC islands), Canada and Mexico are not considered foreign distant ports.

 

[msec]

Thanks so much for your reply and explanation - it was very helpful!!

I was hoping to do this as a B2B but it looks like this will not be an option

Back to the drawing board...

 

[ofcabbagesandkings]

OP, I had considered this as well, but then realized the routing would mean I really wouldn't get much time in San Juan. There is so much to see and do there that I really want to extend my stay in San Juan by a couple of nights (I also have family there). Perhaps you could find another line with a departure a few days after the Magic departs that will get you back to Florida?

 

[Sconny]

Are you positive on this? I thought the rule is cant go between 2 US ports without stopping in a foreign port. I dont know all the rules so not going to say for sure...

Just seems weird that these cruises the OP asked about can not be done as B2B...This year for November the Magic is doing the same thing...Cruise from NYC with 2 Stops (Tortola and St Maarten) ending in PR, then next cruise is PR to Miami with stops at St Thomas and Castaway Cay....and that can be done B2B I thought? (Again maybe I am wrong).

The one for 2021 leaves NYC goes to Bermuda then to Tortola and ends in PR (2 stops) and then leaves PR stops in DR then Castaway then Miami...its almost like they add 2 stops just in case so this rule does not apply...

Like to hear what others think also as I think these can be done as B2B as you are technically departing the boat in PR

 

[GoofyDisneyDaddy]

These cannot do B2B as you would technically be NYC to MIA. I really wish they'd take the ship to the ABC islands as part of one of the legs so that they could be booked B2B. Or even just a 9 night repo that includes the ABCs.

 

[Marc D]

Are you positive on this? I thought the rule is cant go between 2 US ports without stopping in a foreign port. I dont know all the rules so not going to say for sure...

100 % sure. The rule is they need to visit not a foreign port but a ‘distant foreign port’. You can look up the PVSA rules online, for example on this site :

https://shouldbecruising.com/2020/07/01/passenger-vessel-services-act/
A closed-loop cruise must visit a foreign port if the ship is not registered in the US. That”s why the only ship that sails around Hawaii, NCL‘s Pride of America is the only cruise ship owned by a major line registered in the US, since she cannot visit another country.

Every year, people report on this board their B2B NYC-PR-Miami cruises getting cancelled a few weeks after booking, once DCL figures out the same guests are on both cruises. The main reason they do that route is that PR is subject to a temporary exception under the PVSA (that has been renewed for many years now), allowing them to move the ship from NYC to Miami with guests onboard. Embarking in NYC and disembarking in PR is legal. Going from PR to Miami is also legal.

If the PR exception gets revoked, they’ll need to visit South America or the ABC islands if they still want to maintain a NYC season. In that situation, they could also simply skip NYC and end the WBTA in Miami to start her winter season.

 

[DietCokeMommy]

You can't do it as a B2B. But if you're from NYC I'd do the 10/30 cruise, then spend a few days in SJ, then fly back to NYC from there. The flights to SJ are pretty easy. And San Juan and Puerto Rico are great. We've been there twice in the last couple of years and love it.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Would love to do it too, but cannot.

We are getting a price for the first leg. Looking forward to doing that!

 

[Sconny]

Thanks for the feedback and responses...you learn something new everyday...even if it the rule makes no sense at all (I could see if it was a direct cruise from NYC to Miami or something)...

One would think that Bermuda would count as a foreign port as its further away in the Atlantic, but I think they still call it a Caribbean Island

Enjoy all

 

[gotomu212]

Thanks for the feedback and responses...you learn something new everyday...even if it the rule makes no sense at all (I could see if it was a direct cruise from NYC to Miami or something)...

One would think that Bermuda would count as a foreign port as its further away in the Atlantic, but I think they still call it a Caribbean Island

Enjoy all

It has to be off the “North American Continent” to count as a distant port. That’s why the ABC islands are considered distant- they are on South Americas continental shelf while the rest of the Carribean and Central America are part of N American continent.

 

[Sconny]

It has to be off the “North American Continent” to count as a distant port. That’s why the ABC islands are considered distant- they are on South Americas continental shelf while the rest of the Carribean and Central America are part of N American continent.

Just went and read the article Marc B linked, thanks for that...Makes more sense after reading but still seems weird to say the least.

Thanks again everyone for my cruise education today

 

[Calantha]

Columbia

It’s Colombia.

Sorry.

 

[TestingH2O]

That’s why the PC cruises always stop in Columbia. Even the last WBPC cruise, which had to cancel the Cartagena stop for lack of time, still had to make an hour ‘technical stop’ there for the entire routing to be legal. If they had missed the port, DCL would have had to pay a fine per passenger.

This brings up an interesting question. We were not, in fact, allowed to even make the technical stop. We never actually docked. I wonder if Disney had to pay the fine even though it was Colombia that made it impossible to dock.

 

[Marc D]

This brings up an interesting question. We were not, in fact, allowed to even make the technical stop. We never actually docked. I wonder if Disney had to pay the fine even though it was Colombia that made it impossible to dock.

I’m pretty sure DCL would be able to argue they did not violate the act. It says “there is no violation of the coastwise law provided the passenger has proceeded with the vessel to a distant foreign port.” As long as they enter the waters of the port, I’m guessing they are ok. There is also a waiver provision in the act. I don’t know if they are issued on a case-by-case basis or only for permanent routes, like PR, southern Alaska and Upper NY.

BTW, the fine is 300$ per passenger and is imposed on the carrier, not the passengers. If the ship was full, that would amount to a 720k$ fine.

 

[SnowWhite2]

I wanted to do these two cruises also. I've done several B2B from San Juan-San Juan-Miami. I guess I'll need to read the link to figure out the reason that this one combo can't be done but the others could.

 

[Starwind]

Thanks for the feedback and responses...you learn something new everyday...even if it the rule makes no sense at all (I could see if it was a direct cruise from NYC to Miami or something)...

One would think that Bermuda would count as a foreign port as its further away in the Atlantic, but I think they still call it a Caribbean Island

Enjoy all

When you do a B2B for *you* it becomes regarded as essentially one continuous cruise. So if you are sailing B2B as A to B and B to C, for the purposes of the Act it is regarded as if *you* are sailing from A to C. So in this case, you are regarded as sailing as NYC to Miami, which is not allowed without a distant foreign port, which there isn't. Functionally, San Juan just becomes another port along with the others.

A B2B that is San Juan-San Juan-Miami is allowed because it is regarded as San Juan-Miami which is fine.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

This brings up an interesting question. We were not, in fact, allowed to even make the technical stop. We never actually docked. I wonder if Disney had to pay the fine even though it was Colombia that made it impossible to dock.

I’m pretty sure DCL would be able to argue they did not violate the act. It says “there is no violation of the coastwise law provided the passenger has proceeded with the vessel to a distant foreign port.” As long as they enter the waters of the port, I’m guessing they are ok. There is also a waiver provision in the act. I don’t know if they are issued on a case-by-case basis or only for permanent routes, like PR, southern Alaska and Upper NY.

BTW, the fine is 300$ per passenger and is imposed on the carrier, not the passengers. If the ship was full, that would amount to a 720k$ fine.

Usually what happens when the PVSA is violated due to unforeseen circumstances, the fine is assessed and then waived. Just to keep the paperwork straight. I know that's what happens when someone dies onboard and is the body is removed from the ship in a port that would cause a violation.

And the fine has been raised - it's now $762 per passenger. While true it's assessed against the cruise line, the charge is usually then charged to a passenger's onboard account, if it isn't waived.

 

[mrsclark]

We were thinking of doing a B2B next year and now I am wondering if it is allowed - we were thinking of doing a NYC-NYC with stops in Canada and Maine and then adding the NYC-San Juan with stops in Bermuda and British Virgin Islands. So because of the above mentioned exception for San Juan this would be allowed??? Is that correct??

 

[GoofyDisneyDaddy]

We were thinking of doing a B2B next year and now I am wondering if it is allowed - we were thinking of doing a NYC-NYC with stops in Canada and Maine and then adding the NYC-San Juan with stops in Bermuda and British Virgin Islands. So because of the above mentioned exception for San Juan this would be allowed??? Is that correct??

Yes, that would be allowed. That's no different, from a PVSA stand point, then just doing the NYC-San Juan leg, which is allowed. The problem with the B2B of NYC-SJC and SJC-MIA that is not allowed, because that is viewed as essentially NYC-MIA, which is not permitted.