Boy Scouts to allow girls

[DopeyDame]

Just to keep everyone fired up today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/11/us/boy-scouts-girls.html

The group said that, beginning in 2018, girls will be allowed into its Cub Scout program, which had been limited to boys in the first through fifth grades or between the ages of 7 and 10.

A separate program for older girls will be announced next year and is expected to be available in 2019.

The Girl Scouts are not pleased:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...o-increase-membership/?utm_term=.c0393ba710ae

ETA my own opionion: As a 12 year Girl Scout and now a Girl Scout leader, I see incredibly value in an all-girl environment. As the mom of an 8 year old boy (who tried boy scouts for a few months and hated it) I also see incredible value in an all-boy environment. I think it's a shame the boy scouts are doing this. But I think the Girl Scouts need to chillax a little. Do their thing, own who they are, and don't worry about the rest.

 

[CarolAnn856]

I'm thrilled. As a mom of an Eagle Scout and former leader of ny daughter's GS troop before she quit, I think the Boy Scout organization has a far better program than the Girl Scouts. I only wish this existed years ago.

 

[Grmnshplvr]

Just to keep everyone fired up today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/11/us/boy-scouts-girls.html

The group said that, beginning in 2018, girls will be allowed into its Cub Scout program, which had been limited to boys in the first through fifth grades or between the ages of 7 and 10.

A separate program for older girls will be announced next year and is expected to be available in 2019.

The Girl Scouts are not pleased:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...o-increase-membership/?utm_term=.c0393ba710ae

ETA my own opionion: As a 12 year Girl Scout and now a Girl Scout leader, I see incredibly value in an all-girl environment. As the mom of an 8 year old boy (who tried boy scouts for a few months and hated it) I also see incredible value in an all-boy environment. I think it's a shame the boy scouts are doing this. But I think the Girl Scouts need to chillax a little. Do their thing, own who they are, and don't worry about the rest.

I'm not arguing that there isn't one, but what do you see the value is in an all girl or boy environment?

Personally I like this idea, I think Boy Scouts has a lot to offer to some girls that don't like or want to be a part of girl scouts.

 

[Liberty Belle]

Good! I think the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts programs should meld together to better fit and suit all kids who are interested.

 

[DopeyDame]

I'm not arguing that there isn't one, but what do you see the value is in an all girl or boy environment?

Personally I like this idea, I think Boy Scouts has a lot to offer to some girls that don't like or want to be a part of girl scouts.

I'll put my bias out there first: I've done a ton of research and work in girls/women in STEM areas, so that's the perspective I'm using. For girls, study after study show that they participate less and take fewer risks (which are hugely important in science fields!) when there are boys around. Girls are less likely to volunteer to lead an activity if there are boys around. Less likely to try a new skill that they've never done before. Less likely to ask questions and less likely to be called upon to answer a question. This starts in late elementary school and goes down hill from there. Obviously this doesn't apply to all girls or to all environments, but enough research has been done that shows these trends, that it's something to be concerned about. Having a place where girls can go a few times a month where they are just around girls gives them the opportunity to be the leaders and to take risks.
I'm not by ANY means saying that all girls need that opportunity, or that they can't be leaders and risk takers else where, but having a place where girls can safely develop those skills is hugely beneficial for SOME girls.

As for boys, my son is your stereotypical active hyper crazy little boy. He works SO hard at school all day to keep it together and behave. Having a place where it's normal and OK to be active and crazy, where he won't be compared to the adorable little girl sitting still and coloring, is good for him too. (Like I said, boy scouts didn't work out to be that place for my son, but I can easily see how it would be for many boys.)

 

[Liberty Belle]

I'll put my bias out there first: I've done a ton of research and work in girls/women in STEM areas, so that's the perspective I'm using. For girls, study after study show that they participate less and take fewer risks (which are hugely important in science fields!) when there are boys around. Girls are less likely to volunteer to lead an activity if there are boys around. Less likely to try a new skill that they've never done before. Less likely to ask questions and less likely to be called upon to answer a question. This starts in late elementary school and goes down hill from there. Obviously this doesn't apply to all girls or to all environments, but enough research has been done that shows these trends, that it's something to be concerned about. Having a place where girls can go a few times a month where they are just around girls gives them the opportunity to be the leaders and to take risks.
I'm not by ANY means saying that all girls need that opportunity, or that they can't be leaders and risk takers else where, but having a place where girls can safely develop those skills is hugely beneficial for SOME girls.

As for boys, my son is your stereotypical active hyper crazy little boy. He works SO hard at school all day to keep it together and behave. Having a place where it's normal and OK to be active and crazy, where he won't be compared to the adorable little girl sitting still and coloring, is good for him too. (Like I said, boy scouts didn't work out to be that place for my son, but I can easily see how it would be for many boys.)

That all makes sense and is understandable, but like you said it would only apply to some girls and I think it would apply to some boys, too. I don't see why they can't combine them and then separate at times by chosen activities/learning styles/personalities instead of gender.

 

[DopeyDame]

That all makes sense and is understandable, but like you said it would only apply to some girls and I think it would apply to some boys, too. I don't see why they can't combine them and then separate at times by chosen activities/learning styles/personalities instead of gender.

Well we're not forcing any girls to join Girl Scouts, so of course only the girls that it applies to (or who for whatever reason want to) would join.

By allowing girls in Boy Scouts (or vice versa) you are removing the option of an activity for the boys who DO want the boy only environment (and vice versa)

I'm just not sure what the benefit to combining them is.

I'm not at all opposed to a coed outdoor/life skills/character program - that would be awesome! Go for it! (And I'm assuming programs like that already exist, although I can't name them off the top of my head.) I don't know why you would want to eliminate the other options for kids that do want it, though.

(Note: clearly the Girl Scouts have no interest in going coed, so this really is about losing the boy-only opportunity for those boys that want it.)

 

[Liberty Belle]

Well we're not forcing any girls to join Girl Scouts, so of course only the girls that it applies to (or who for whatever reason want to) would join.

By allowing girls in Boy Scouts (or vice versa) you are removing the option of an activity for the boys who DO want the boy only environment (and vice versa)

I'm just not sure what the benefit to combining them is.

I'm not at all opposed to a coed outdoor/life skills/character program - that would be awesome! Go for it! (And I'm assuming programs like that already exist, although I can't name them off the top of my head.) I don't know why you would want to eliminate the other options for kids that do want it, though.

(Note: clearly the Girl Scouts have no interest in going coed, so this really is about losing the boy-only opportunity for those boys that want it.)

That makes sense.

 

[Grmnshplvr]

Well we're not forcing any girls to join Girl Scouts, so of course only the girls that it applies to (or who for whatever reason want to) would join.

By allowing girls in Boy Scouts (or vice versa) you are removing the option of an activity for the boys who DO want the boy only environment (and vice versa)

I'm just not sure what the benefit to combining them is.

I'm not at all opposed to a coed outdoor/life skills/character program - that would be awesome! Go for it! (And I'm assuming programs like that already exist, although I can't name them off the top of my head.) I don't know why you would want to eliminate the other options for kids that do want it, though.

(Note: clearly the Girl Scouts have no interest in going coed, so this really is about losing the boy-only opportunity for those boys that want it.)

I wish I could find the link but I read the girl scouts have allowed boys since the 70s? If I can find something to back this up I will. Your point is very valid and I would guess if a girl WANTS to learn the skills taught in boy scouts versus Girl Scouts she may not be the type to shy away from stepping up if boys are around, just my opinion...although its really based on nothing but feeling.

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

I wonder how this will differ from the Venture Scout program which already allows girls? Maybe they are adding something for the 10-14 year old set?

I have boys in scouts. I am very hesitant to think this is a good thing. I can see it being a nightmare for the scoutmasters as far as planning campouts and such. Not to mention the hormones at those ages. I agree with the other posters, there are so few boy only activities especially in that age range.

 

[BLAZEY]

Scouts Canada has been Co-ed for years. Girl Guides of Canada is still all female (including trans girls). The girls I know that do Scouts over Guides have brothers in the organization and parents just put the girls in scouts for ease scheduling. My daughter is an only and is in the Guiding stream as that is what I did and my mum is still a unit guider. If there wasn't a Guiding unit available I would not hesitate to put her in Scouts. My husband was a scout and from what he says the programs here were fairly similar when we were kids.

 

[DopeyDame]

Scouts Canada has been Co-ed for years. Girl Guides of Canada is still all female (including trans girls). The girls I know that do Scouts over Guides have brothers in the organization and parents just put the girls in scouts for ease scheduling. My daughter is an only and is in the Guiding stream as that is what I did and my mum is still a unit guider. If there wasn't a Guiding unit available I would not hesitate to put her in Scouts. My husband was a scout and from what he says the programs here were fairly similar when we were kids.

Thanks for sharing that perspective. Is Scouts Canada part of the same organization as Boy Scouts of America? Is there even an international Boy Scout organization (showing my boy ignorance here)

I know for sure that it's the Girl Guides of Canada and GS USA that are both part of the Worldwide Girl Guides and Girl Scouts organization. (Just wanted to clarify because this has caused some confusion in the past.)

 

[BLAZEY]

Yes Scouts Canada is a member of the larger World Organization of the Scouting Movement (WOSM) . And yes Girl Guides of Canada are a member of WAGGGS. I know we had some day events where we have had both guide and scouts attend back when I was a guide. They seem to be very parallel organizations, historically divided male and female. DH's mother was a Scout Master when he and his brother were Scouts. The one main difference is that between Canada and the US is that in Canada both Organizations are secular, with no official religious affiliation.

 

[Wendy31]

I'll put my bias out there first: I've done a ton of research and work in girls/women in STEM areas, so that's the perspective I'm using. For girls, study after study show that they participate less and take fewer risks (which are hugely important in science fields!) when there are boys around. Girls are less likely to volunteer to lead an activity if there are boys around. Less likely to try a new skill that they've never done before. Less likely to ask questions and less likely to be called upon to answer a question. This starts in late elementary school and goes down hill from there. Obviously this doesn't apply to all girls or to all environments, but enough research has been done that shows these trends, that it's something to be concerned about. Having a place where girls can go a few times a month where they are just around girls gives them the opportunity to be the leaders and to take risks.
I'm not by ANY means saying that all girls need that opportunity, or that they can't be leaders and risk takers else where, but having a place where girls can safely develop those skills is hugely beneficial for SOME girls.

As for boys, my son is your stereotypical active hyper crazy little boy. He works SO hard at school all day to keep it together and behave. Having a place where it's normal and OK to be active and crazy, where he won't be compared to the adorable little girl sitting still and coloring, is good for him too. (Like I said, boy scouts didn't work out to be that place for my son, but I can easily see how it would be for many boys.)

Well we're not forcing any girls to join Girl Scouts, so of course only the girls that it applies to (or who for whatever reason want to) would join.

By allowing girls in Boy Scouts (or vice versa) you are removing the option of an activity for the boys who DO want the boy only environment (and vice versa)

I'm just not sure what the benefit to combining them is.

I'm not at all opposed to a coed outdoor/life skills/character program - that would be awesome! Go for it! (And I'm assuming programs like that already exist, although I can't name them off the top of my head.) I don't know why you would want to eliminate the other options for kids that do want it, though.

(Note: clearly the Girl Scouts have no interest in going coed, so this really is about losing the boy-only opportunity for those boys that want it.)

I agree w/ both of these assessments.

However, I wonder... is the Eagle Scout recognition that the Boy Scouts offer the main reason some girls want in the Boy Scouts?

I don't know what the highest ranking is for the Girl Scouts, but I think (& I could be wrong) that the Eagle Scout ranking is seen as more prestigious & more advantageous for its recipients than whatever the Girl Scouts offer?

DD was in Girl Scouts for a couple of years. My nephew was in Boy Scouts & has achieved the Eagle Scout Ranking. From my (admittedly very limited) viewpoint, the Boy Scouts program looks more impressive & like it's a better overall experience to me than the Girl Scouts program - again, I don't have very much experience w/ either. My opinion is basically that of an outsider looking in, I know!

 

[stsomewhere]

My son started as a Tiger and is an Eagle scout. My husband was scoutmaster and I was a Den Leader. Our Pack and Troop often has sisters that were at meetings and outings.

 

[smiths02]

I'm a little torn. My oldest son (11) just became a Boy Scout last year after spending 4 years in Cub Scouts and earning the highest rank there. I kind of feel bad that there won't be that all male group for him to participate in the same way. However, I also think that BSA might make ways to keep some separation.

As for Cub Scouts, well, the research cited earlier was about all female environments for girls in late elementary school. Cub Scouts is 1st-5th grades, so I don't know that girls won't speak up. Cub Scouts is also very much a family environment. All the camp outs we went on included fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, and sometimes grandparents. I have 5 year old boy/girl twins. My younger son obviously wants to do Cub Scouts like his older brother. We already go in 3 different directions often, so it might be nice to have both of them in the same activity when, most likely, if DS is in Cub Scouts in a few years, DD will be dragged along to many of the meetings and camp outs anyhow. She might as well earn some badges while she's at it.

I see scouting having trouble with recruitment. This opens up lots of new members.

 

[RangerPooh]

I agree w/ both of these assessments.

However, I wonder... is the Eagle Scout recognition that the Boy Scouts offer the main reason some girls want in the Boy Scouts?

I don't know what the highest ranking is for the Girl Scouts, but I think (& I could be wrong) that the Eagle Scout ranking is seen as more prestigious & more advantageous for its recipients than whatever the Girl Scouts offer?

DD was in Girl Scouts for a couple of years. My nephew was in Boy Scouts & has achieved the Eagle Scout Ranking. From my (admittedly very limited) viewpoint, the Boy Scouts program looks more impressive & like it's a better overall experience to me than the Girl Scouts program - again, I don't have very much experience w/ either. My opinion is basically that of an outsider looking in, I know!

My girls have both completed their Bronze Awards (grades 4-5), and my oldest is currently working on her Silver Award (grades 6-8). They invest a lot of time and energy into their projects, and often receive little recognition for all the work and effort put into them.

For Girl Scouts it's the Gold Award (grades 9-12). You're right in that Boy Scouts earn more recognition for their award, but the amount of hours that a girl must put into her project is in no way diminished. It's a minimum of 80 hours of service, where the project must go through a review committee for approval (or at least it did in my council), and the project needs to be sustainable, not a one and done activity. Plus in order to be eligible to complete the Gold Award a girl needs to have completed a combination of badge work and/or received the Silver Award which is 50 hours of service and badge work.

A dad in my former troop who's a Den Leader commented that the work the girls go through for their Gold Awards is more than the boys go through in order to receive Eagle Scout.

 

[Geoff_M]

Yes Scouts Canada is a member of the larger World Organization of the Scouting Movement (WOSM)

As is the Boy Scouts of America.

To understand things, you need to understand the early history of boy scouting in the USA. After Scouting became popular in the UK, where it was founded, a number of competing scouting programs cropped up in the US in the 1900's. Not only was there the Boy Scouts of America, there was also the American Boy Scouts (which was backed by William Randolph Hearst), the US Boy Scouts, the Boy Scout Navy, the Rhode Island Boy Scouts, and other such organizations. There was a struggle for legitimacy that took place among the rival organizations that famously included an attempt to divert (same say "kidnap") the founder of Scouting, Sir Robert Baden-Powell, from going to a BSA public diner held in BP's honor to a rival event of the ABS when he arrived in the US for a visit. In a matter of years, and after well publicized scandals involving ABS leaders pocketing funds donated to their organization, the feuding ended when Congress granted the BSA a charter in 1911 (effectively making them incorporated by the US government) and granting exclusive use of the term "Boy Scout." The GSUSA and the Red Cross are other examples of organizations with Congressional charters. The WOSM will only recognize one organization per country as a member organization, and they picked the BSA as the "boy" organization in the US.

I'm not educated as to the history of the GSUSA, but they developed on a separate path of their own. I'm not sure when, but at some point the BSA and GSUSA signed a memorandum of understanding that neither organization would offer a program for members of the opposite sex under the age of 14. It has operated under that agreement since then. I don't know about the GSUSA, but in 1969 the BSA first allowed girls to join their older-scout (age 14 to 21) "Explorer" program. The program is now known as "Venturing."

The move that the BSA just announced has been hinted at for several months now. Not surprisingly, the GSUSA, has been openly hostile to the idea from the get go. The national leader of the GSUSA sent the head of the BSA a blistering letter in August.

As noted, the US is one of the few countries where the boy and girl scouting programs don't roll up in to one national parent organization. What this move means for the GSUSA isn't fully clear, but isn't not hard to see it as an effort to siphon off members to add numbers to the BSA balance sheet. While the BSA has seen a significant drop in membership, they are still in a much better position that their GSUSA counterparts. The GSUSA also has a major problem with pension liabilities to retired workers.

 

[Wendy31]

My girls have both completed their Bronze Awards (grades 4-5), and my oldest is currently working on her Silver Award (grades 6-8). They invest a lot of time and energy into their projects, and often receive little recognition for all the work and effort put into them.

For Girl Scouts it's the Gold Award (grades 9-12). You're right in that Boy Scouts earn more recognition for their award, but the amount of hours that a girl must put into her project is in no way diminished. It's a minimum of 80 hours of service, where the project must go through a review committee for approval (or at least it did in my council), and the project needs to be sustainable, not a one and done activity. Plus in order to be eligible to complete the Gold Award a girl needs to have completed a combination of badge work and/or received the Silver Award which is 50 hours of service and badge work.

A dad in my former troop who's a Den Leader commented that the work the girls go through for their Gold Awards is more than the boys go through in order to receive Eagle Scout.

Thank you for the information! I wasn't aware of the different ranking levels for Girl Scouts or what was involved to achieve the ranking.

I wonder why the Eagle Scout ranking is more recognized than the Gold ranking?

 

[RangerPooh]

Thank you for the information! I wasn't aware of the different ranking levels for Girl Scouts or what was involved to achieve the ranking.

I wonder why the Eagle Scout ranking is more recognized than the Gold ranking?

My guess (and only a guess) is that it harks back to recognizing the achievement of men more than women. Regardless of how well executed it is (or how much better it may be over an Eagle Scout project), the Girl receiving the Gold Award will undoubtedly receive less fanfare than the boy. It's sad.