Boy Scouts to allow girls

And the wrong one. Not once did I state that the future Eagle Scout designation would be diminished. That was an insinuation the pp made, most likely because they disagree with anyone who dares to see any issues with the Boy Scouts going coed.

No you didn't, you said this.
"As for the impact on the BSA, I agree with those who are warning that putting the two genders together is not going to necessarily be beneficial. Which is why I'm glad my son earned his Eagle Scout designation three years ago and is grandfathered into the fraternity of those achieved it in its original form."

But you are right that insinuation must have been made because of something else, I have no idea where that pp got her idea. Its not like what you said up above comes across as you thinking the meaning of the award will be diminished from it's "original" form now that girls would be eligible for it too. :rolleyes1

Personally I see no reason the boy scouts should change to co-ed, but I don't really see any reason to care if they do.
 
No you didn't, you said this.
"As for the impact on the BSA, I agree with those who are warning that putting the two genders together is not going to necessarily be beneficial. Which is why I'm glad my son earned his Eagle Scout designation three years ago and is grandfathered into the fraternity of those achieved it in its original form."

But you are right that insinuation must have been made because of something else, I have no idea where that pp got her idea. Its not like what you said up above comes across as you thinking the meaning of the award will be diminished from it's "original" form now that girls would be eligible for it too. :rolleyes1

Personally I see no reason the boy scouts should change to co-ed, but I don't really see any reason to care if they do.
I assume you are talking about my response. When someone says they are glad their son earned his Eagle Scout as a BOY scout and not as a BOY and GIRL scout, that insinuates pretty strongly that a Boy and Girl scout does not have as much value to the poster as a Boy Scout.
 


No you didn't, you said this.
"As for the impact on the BSA, I agree with those who are warning that putting the two genders together is not going to necessarily be beneficial. Which is why I'm glad my son earned his Eagle Scout designation three years ago and is grandfathered into the fraternity of those achieved it in its original form."

You are welcome to engage in whatever selective interpretation you want, and I am entitled to point out it is flawed. For again, I never once said those attaining Eagle status in the future would be be getting a diminished designation. I simply said those who achieved it during the era when the Boy Scouts were made up solely of boys would be part of a unique group. Not better or worse, just unique.

And a tribute to the precious right to freedom of association that the constitution guarantees every one of us.
 


The Boy Scout Troops in my area have record enrollment and my son benefitted tremendously in his scouting experiences which included achieving the Eagle designation. Curious as to what programs your sons are allowed to participate in that engage and stimulate to the same level as that.

We have Y Guides in my area, which are similar to Boy Scouts but don't exclude anyone on the basis of religious beliefs or sexual orientation.
 
I guess since there's no difference between girls and boys anymore so this is totally appropriate??? We might as well let boys join the girls scouts too. I guess it's all part of the big picture to demasculate men. It's really sad what's happening to this world with all the gender politics. I'm really starting to hope my kids never have kids. I'm serious I really don't want them too. It's bad enough now. I can't imaging what it's going to be like 10 years from now.

Go ahead send me all your hate posts. You won't sway me away from my conservative values.

My dh was a boy scout until age 17. I'm sure all those teenage boys would have loved to have teenage girls in their scout group. I'm sure the teenage girls would loved that too. I don't think it a bad thing for teens with raging hormones to be segregated into their own clubs. Just a thought.

"Demasculate" isn't a word.
 
I am wondering if you live in a particular color area.

I know in my area, many, many families do not encourage their boys to be part of scouts due to their discrimination policies. I would have had to really think hard about allowing my boys to join if they asked. Thankfully, they were never interested. And we found plenty of programs that engaged and stimulated the boys just fine.

I know I do not support BSA and never will. Your implication that allowing girls into BSA will somehow diminish the value of the program is exactly the attitude I did not want my boys around.

I respect your decision to not involve your children in the BSA. However, please do not assume that everyone involved only likes a certain color from a certain map. We, as a family, did not share the BSA's former LGBTQ stance, but we still encouraged our son to join because (a) our local troop did not worry about adhering to national's stance and (b) we saw enough value in the program to make working from within to change their stance worthwhile.
 
I only have girls, and so I only know girl scouts. A couple of thoughts...

Think Girl Scouts is boring for your daughter? Lead a troop yourself and do it your way. Seriously. I didn't become a Girl Scout leader because I am a supermom with tons of extra time on my hands. My daughter was in a troop. I didn't like how they did it (treated it like a playdate) so I started my own troop. Would you like my troop? Maybe, maybe not. But you can either complain, offer to help, or start your own. Big on camping? Go camping! My co-leader and I are not big campers, and don't possess those skills. But another family in our troop likes camping and they stepped up for us. They could have sat back complaining how we never camp. Or step up and lead that part of the program.

My oldest just earned her Gold Award. It was a huge project. She built an interactive prayer gazebo at her favorite camp. She had to fundraise, gather a team of help, budget for and purchase supplies. Work with area churches and businesses. I cringed every time she had to explain that a Gold Award is the equivalent of Eagle Scout. It was a big project! It is worthy of its own recognition.

My husband works for a City, and a Boy Scout came to him about wanting to repair a gazebo in a city park as his Eagle Scout. So his daughter builds an entire Gazebo as a Gold Award (which no one gets is a big deal) and this Boy scout gets to repair an existing gazebo as an Eagle Scout which every acknowledged is a big deal.

As the news broke about Boy Scouts allowing girls, a common refrain was "girls will finally be eligible to earn the prestigious Eagle Scout" Which saddens me. Because the Gold Award is a big friggin deal too.
 
I'd love to hear from more BSA parents about what they see as the value of a boys-only environment to their boys. There are lots of post here (and other places on the internet) about how GIRL Scouts should or shouldn't remain all girls and is or isn't valuable. But Girl Scouts aren't the ones changing.
Like I said in the very first post, as the mom of a little boy and little girl, I see great value in their each having one activity that is single sex. For my daughter it's Girl Scouts, and we'll continue on our merry way with our troop regardless of what the boys do. My son didn't like Cub Scouts, but I still see how it's a good experience for some boys to have that space.
 
On that we can certainly agree.

Yes, but what we probably can't agree on is the increasing intolerance part of the population has, ergo the ones who wants to mandate what cultural values are and aren't "correct." A primary example are the administrators of certain institutions of higher learning, who want to regulate the definition of free speech, what halloween costumes can and cannot be worn, whether certain food items in the cafeteria are or are not "culturally authentic" enough to be served, etc. :sad2:
 
I guess since there's no difference between girls and boys anymore so this is totally appropriate??? We might as well let boys join the girls scouts too. I guess it's all part of the big picture to demasculate men. It's really sad what's happening to this world with all the gender politics. I'm really starting to hope my kids never have kids. I'm serious I really don't want them too. It's bad enough now. I can't imaging what it's going to be like 10 years from now.

Go ahead send me all your hate posts. You won't sway me away from my conservative values.

My dh was a boy scout until age 17. I'm sure all those teenage boys would have loved to have teenage girls in their scout group. I'm sure the teenage girls would loved that too. I don't think it a bad thing for teens with raging hormones to be segregated into their own clubs. Just a thought.

I know! All the equality and inclusion!! Deplorable!
 
I'd love to hear from more BSA parents about what they see as the value of a boys-only environment to their boys.
Here's the funny thing. On paper I should be one of the people really upset about the coming changes, given that I have a long family association with the BSA and am very socially conservative, but in reality the changes don't really bother me. To me, at the Boy Scout level at least, it's not much more than a final step and formalization of the integration of girls into the BSA. The last couple of years we went to summer camp, the campsite that we were in had teenaged "girl" scouts camped along with us. They were from the co-ed Venture Crew that was associated with the same Boy Scout Troop. The girls attended the camp in the same capacity as the boys. They participated in the same activities at their male counterparts, ate at the same tables, sat around the same campfires, etc. There was no sense of the Boy Scout program being "invaded" by the female Venture Scouts. They were accepted with no problems.

Additionally, in other years there were all-female troops of American Heritage Girls that also attended the same summer camp with us. AHG is a Christian-based alternative to the GSUSA that used to have a partnership with the BSA that allowed them to come to Boy Scout summer camps as the equivalent to BSA Venture Crews. That partnership was ended by the AHG when the BSA changed their policy regarding gays in 2013.

So, for me, the bottom line is that in recent years I've become quite used to seeing minor-aged females within Boy Scouting programs. I don't sense that anything has been ruined by this experience. I don't sense that the changes have caused the boys to be any less boy-like.

It's also worth noting that I cannot recall any aspect of the Boy Scout program that is overtly gender specific. The skills and ideas contained in the Boy Scout Handbook are applicable to both boys and girls.
 
This country has always had regional variation in values. What has changed is the willingness of some to accept that.

True, and I think that applies to those on both sides of those differences. Did you read the op-ed about the BSA changes in the NY Times a few days ago? It touched on what you're saying, from an angle I hadn't really thought of - that the BSA change isn't about giving girls better options, but about extending the traditional/conservative values of BSA to more youth and giving families who identify with those values a "better" choice than the more progressive-minded values of GSA's national organization. I'm not sure how much I buy that argument, but it was an interesting angle on the possible motivation for the change.

If you're interested: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/opinion/boy-scouts-girls-.html
 
I am part of a BSA family and while I am ok with the change, I do see value in boys having access to a program of just boys. At 14 and 16 my boys do fine now in a co-ed setting, but there was a time that they really needed a boy only program. Both of my boys are ADHD and after spending all day in school, the last thing they wanted to do was come to a scout meeting and be expected to sit and be quiet. I think for the 10-13 or 14 year old boys ,who tend to be immature and very active, the introduction of girls could have a negative impact on the program. At that age girls are more mature and able/willing to sit and have a quiet meeting. The boys on the other hand need to be up and moving and hands on. I can see that age group of boys really annoying the girls and that could cause some issues for the boys if they are constantly being expected to adjust their behavior to meet the expectations of the girls. Our troop meetings can be very loud and high energy and times, but the boys get a lot done and have a lot of fun. I know that our troop meetings are not the norm, but it works for our group and is part of the reason my sons picked the troop.
 
It touched on what you're saying, from an angle I hadn't really thought of - that the BSA change isn't about giving girls better options, but about extending the traditional/conservative values of BSA to more youth and giving families who identify with those values a "better" choice than the more progressive-minded values of GSA's national organization. I'm not sure how much I buy that argument, but it was an interesting angle on the possible motivation for the change.
I read it and the author overlooks some key facts about the BSA and comes off sounding a bit too conspiratorial to me. She is right that looking for growth in the organization is largely no doubt what drove the changes. If you've been around the BSA long enough, it is an organization that's driven by numbers and numeric goals. They view the changes as an option to help increase the membership as well as improve their finances. But I don't buy the notion that the BSA's move is some sort of conservative-based attempted hostile take-over of the GSUSA.

The NYT writer seems to have overlooked the slings and arrows that the BSA has taken from conservatives in recent years over other their controversial policy changes. As I mentioned earlier, the LDS' partial pull-back from the BSA is undoubtedly a reaction to some of those changes given the timing (regardless of the fact that both the LDS and BSA are both keeping up a good front publicly that everything's AOK between them). On top of that, other religious leaders have barred the churches they oversee from being involved with the BSA because of the same changes that have concerned the LDS church. So, I reject the notion that the BSA is some kind of organization that is now bent on minting conservative minded young women and now sees an opening to do so.

I prefer not to talk too much about the GSUSA because I'm not very knowledgeable about them as a whole, but I think that it's worth pointing out that in spite of all of the progressive-minded virtues that the NYT writer points out that they have eagerly embraced, it hasn't turned around the eroding membership of that youth organization. In the end, I think that the BSA's explanation for the move to open the programs to both boys and girls is what they say it is. Their research data show that there's a demand for such a move plus it's a move that would likely be embraced by enough time-crunched families that would appreciate a single place for both their sons and daughters to learn about scouting. They see it as an undeserved need that will offer them an avenue for growth.

As can be found in this thread, there are many families that do like what the GSUSA currently offers, as well as a lot that don't.... and not all for the same reason. To me, if the GSUSA is secure in the belief that the product that they offer is a quality product with broad enough appeal for girls and young ladies, then it shouldn't matter what the BSA does or doesn't do in terms of allowing girls to join their ranks. It's also worth noting that the BSA isn't the only competition out there for the free time and attention of prospective members of the GSUSA out there.

I said it before here and I'll repeat it... It almost broke my "irony meter" given that not all that long ago the BSA were the "bad guys" because they wouldn't let girls under the age of 14 join their ranks who wanted to, and NOW they're "bad guys" because they've reversed that decision and by doing so are committing an "attack" on the right-thinking GSUSA. For years there were sympathetic periodic national news story about the sex discrimination on the part of the BSA from one or more girls that were told "No!" by BSA officials. Here's one example, also from the NYT: I Want to Be a Boy Scout.’ There’s Just One Hitch. At the end of the article, there's a catalog of previous effort to allow admittance to girls, along with the comparison of barring gays:
Carrie Crosman of Texas and Carla Schwenk of Oregon tried in the 1970s.Marystephanie Constantikes of Oklahoma tried in the 1980s. And Margo Menkes, Katrina Yeaw and seven girls from California tried in the 1990s. None could persuade Boy Scout officials to approve their membership.

“The conflict about admitting girls goes back even further than the conflict over admitting gays,” said Richard Ellis, a professor of politics at Willamette University in Salem, Ore., and the author of the book “Judging the Boy Scouts of America.”
 

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