DEBATE: Calling all cars - let's just park 'em at the curb!

As for the 'old' vs 'new', nothing I see Disney doing today is changing what was CREATED yesterday, or in 1972, at least not to any significant measure. Main St. USA is the same today as it was then.

Hmm...Monsieur Disneykidds, this may put you in a whole 'nother car category. Car 0 perhaps?

We've had many, many discussions...just about Main STreet itself. Maybe Lord Baron could open up the 'way back' machine and give you a quick primer on how much has changed...just in that one area.

Whether you think the changes are bad or good is a different story.
 
Man oh man!! It’s hell to have to work for a living!!! And miss all this good stuff. By the time I get around to posting everything’s been said (very eloquently I might add, by the esteemed Mr. Head and the thoughtful Mr. Curling!!)

NOTE: Greg! You really need to find a better handle. One that isn’t your real name!! How else can we pay proper homage after all?

Anyway, just a quick throw away:
I had some time last night so I went back and looked at some old threads. From my very first (truly eloquent?) post in response to Baron about the WL a couple years back until today, my philosophy has evolved a ton. It admittedly used to be somewhat of a apologist-defend Disney at all costs mentality.
So! Does that mean when I called you an Ei$ner defending apologist, I was right!!??

Cool! :cool: :cool: :cool:
 
Main St. USA is the same today as it was then.

Call me argumentative, Call me son of WFH, and a Dispicable uncouth buttinski, BUT, in fact Mainstreet USA has Gone through Tremendous Negative Changes since it was opened, or even since 10 years ago.

You see in the old days, it was a series of Quiant Shops that offered Unique Merchandise such as the Magic Shop and then of Course there was the Penny Arcade.

Now it is one Big Clothing Botique where you can get any type of Tee or Sweat shirt you Want. So yes, there has been extreme significant change and Mainstreet USA is not the Same Mainstreet USA that used to be there.
 
You are absolutely correct, my seafaring friend!!

Main Street is a former shell of what it used to be!

I find that in all the MK, that depresses me the most.
 


At the risk of some calling this thread another "Car 3 Love Fest", I just thought I would point out that we have something in common here.

Baron was first, of course, but me and Yoho! have both evolved (devolved?) from Eisner fans to Ei$ner bashers. Hopefully, there are no other cars reading this, but if you do a 'wayback' search on the Motley Fool boards, you'll see that I was once a card-carrying Car #1 guy who, after reading 'Storming the Kingdom' oh so long ago, thought that Ei$ner hung the moon. I remember well thinking that Yoho! was one of our most eloquent adversaries here, but lo! and behold! He is starting to succumb. ;)

Heck, it wasn't that long ago that I started adding the $ sign...after reading Lord Baron do it so long, I finally brought myself to do it. My eyes were opened after reading how great of a job Paul Pre$$ler did with the Disney Stores, and then following the protests when he took over DL. (there used to be an anti-Paul website I would check out occasionally). When he just kept getting promoted up and up, while the Disney Stores themselves to a lot of people went down and down, I knew that there was problems from the top down.

It didn't take long...just lots and lots of indoctrination ;) ....before I recognized that this Company needs people on the inside to create, but also needs a strong vision from the top kind of riding herd on all of the creative people. Or maybe fostering the creativity is a better analogy. Who is he/she and when will he/she/they replace Ei$ner? I only wish AV would spill the beans...
 
And all of this time I've just been riding a bicycle...............:p
 
Greg

Excellent summary. This should really be added to the original car thread at the top so people are properly grounded. However, the problem is that if few people are really in Car 1 or Car 4 than the remaining two cars don’t provide much in the way of differentiation for our diverse perspectives.

I too think the Magic is still very strong. However, I’m probably more alarmed than the average Car #2 rider about the shift (mid 90’s) in business approach away from traditional principles/standards. I think the internal culture that was the foundation of the “Disney Way” is slowly de-evolving under these conditions.

I think the balance between short term and long term thinking has shifted dangerously towards the wrong end of the spectrum. I think current management has knowingly dipped into that huge pool of goodwill they helped create in a false pursuit of returns. I do believe the parks are being negatively impacted by the underperformance of the other divisions. I am not optimistic the current management team will become “born again”.

My perception is that some Car #3’s believe the erosion has been occurring for much longer and at a much faster rate. That some of the things I view as just business tactics (half vs full parks…) are more sacrosanct and therefore they see many more transgressions than I.

I’ve defined my car position (2 ½?) more by the radical ness of the arguments given than the strict written definition. I assume tweener opinions are still subject to being uninformed, undefendable stereotypes (lol).

We need the Myers Briggs "Disney" version of the home game. After answering these 40 questions you are a ____. Or a sorting hat would be very helpful.
 


The Cars just took on a life of their own, after a while. For the people who saw the Carpool thread when it first appeared, in the context of the board at that time, it was reasonably clear that the "meat" of Greg's poll was an attempt to remove some of the subjective aspect of the average post.

We were all here in the first place because of our attachments to Disney, but there were voices of complaint heard through the attachments, and you started to see posts like "because I like it, your dislike is trumped" and "if it's so bad, you don't have to go."

It became obvious that different people like different things, that you simply cannot define "Disney Magic" in terms of who likes what product. So conversation turned to critiquing the business processes and philosophy rather than the product, and "Magic" took on a local meaning "those philosophies and points of view useful to creating entertainment that will be considered Magical."

Basically, the Cars were intended to ideological place posters on the scale of 1. Today's business processes are able to produce products that people consider Magic with the same consistency as throughout Disney's past; 2. Today's business processes aren't producing products that people consider Magic with the same consistency as throughout Disney's past, but there is a personal belief that those processes will be changed soon to regain that consistency; 3. Today's business processes aren't producing products that people consider Magic with the same consistency as throughout Disney's past, and there is a personal belief that those processes are unlikely to soon change and regain that consistency; and 4. Today's business practices mirror non-Disney practices that never produced consistent Magic, and Six Flags is as likely to produce a product that people consider Magic as is Disney.

At the time, saying "well, I'm in Car #3, so..." was useful shorthand for "well, I think Eisner and Pressler focus on the financial aspects of creation to the detriment of the guest experience aspects and to the point that "cheap" carries as much corporate weight as "thematically detailled," so..."

They were handy. And, notably, at the time, each Car was most usefully referenced by its own passengers, as a means of explaining the prejudice under which the expressed positions were developed.

The Carpools outlasted the "board mood" that spawned them. Without certain conversations being front and center on the boards, the brief descriptions on each Car didn't carrry the same connotation they once did. Add the fact that quite a number of more recent posters figured out what Car they were in based on reading other posts mentioning the Cars (simply not seeing the poll, at first), and it's really not surprising that there seems to be a significant percentage of posters who believe the Cars measure "how much do you like Disney, 1, 2, or 3?"

No, none of those definitions ever actually appeared verbatim on the Board. No, this is not a lecture to point out how stupidly someone mis-read the Cars. No, this is not suggesting that anyone who didn't happen to be on the boards that long ago shouldn't participate.

My first point is simply this: there is a reasonable and logical explanation why the Cars now mean different things to different people.

A second point is this: if the Cars are to remain a useful classification device and not become a board slur, more of us are going to have to agree a bit more on what, precisely, each Car means.

And finally this: I personally feel that if we collectively decide the Cars will mean "How much do you like Disney, 1, 2, or 3," then Car #3 will completely evaporate, and Car #2 may not need be more spacious than a two-door Yugo. I don't think that Cars defined that way will be a useful short-hand for individuals to use when describing their opinions or backgrounds.

-WFH
 
and this whole time i thought you guys overanalyzed the parks lolololololololololololololololololo lolololol

woo i love this
 
Agreed WFA.

Oh and AIrlarry, I too remember the Deep dark Prehistory BL before Landbaron. I actullay still remember my first response to him where I argued about Mickey Butter. Ah those were the Days.

Truth be told, what turned me around was the company performance and the stupid moves being made by the Television and Motion Picture divisions. I'm still far more bullish on the parks then the rest of the company.
I guess its because I feel there are enough people in Parks and recreation that still are working to the Walt ideals that its errosion is far slower, Also, I feel that the failures elsewhere have a far greater impact on the Parks then a few Carnival ride. I think I have good info to back it up. It's relativly easy to fix Dinorama (opinions about these rides withheld please, its just an example), but the money is being spent on badT.V. shows instead.

Thus my Harley that I ride. The Magic may very well be as strong or only fading slightly, but the rest of the company is a worthless expanding cesspool. Barbarians at the gate indeed.
 

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