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[Duckbug.Ducktales]

Why is there such disdain for riviera? I haven’t ever seen such negative comments about any other DVC property. It’s mind boggling to me.
you would think the resort is absolutely horrendous or something the way people talk about it.

There are some people on this site where negative posts about riviera account for over 50% of their posts.

It is strange, but reading this thread now makes it clear that the newest resort = most hated resort and that's just how it goes
I do wish there was less negativity about RVA (and SSR too!). When I first joined the board I was very turned off by it and so after asking the questions I needed and getting the info (it was about fixed weeks) I didn't come back. A few months later the pandemic hit and I needed more to entertain myself, and talking about Disney seemed like a good way to do that
Luckily I saw there were lots of other lovely folks on here too

I've been wondering exactly that. Is he basing it on older data here from before it opened when it was underselling prior resorts or is it based on something actually coming out of DVC. Hopefully they will get into it more on a future show.

I know, he says that every other episode and my sense is that, while he loves the resort, he really hates the resale restrictions so much that he's (unconsciously?) trying to wish his claim into reality in hopes that the restriction will be lifted some day

 

[BruinEd03]

Yes. And the more you pay for something the more you’ll defend it. I’ve read the research on this, it’s fascinating.

The only thing that really matters. That’s why I’m curious if when @WebmasterPete indicates that it’s selling poorly if that’s based on his intuition or based on a tip from someone at DVC (or the Timeshare Store) who knows.

Riviera is something like twice as large as copper creek and it would have been ridiculous for Disney to expect it to sell as quickly as Poly. So I’m not sure the percentages tell us much. AKV took 5 years to sell but I’m not sure Disney would consider it a disappointment - it was huge! The only clear disappointments are Aulani and VB.

Riviera is large, but it really didn't have as much competition from other actively sold resorts. Poly had Grand Floridian and Aulani. Copper Creek had Poly and to a much smaller extent Aulani. Riviera really only has the ghost of Aulani.

If you look at points sold of actively sold resorts during the first 12 months, it has decreased during the Riviera era.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

Riviera is large, but it really didn't have as much competition from other actively sold resorts. Poly had Grand Floridian and Aulani. Copper Creek had Poly and to a much smaller extent Aulani. Riviera really only has the ghost of Aulani.

If you look at points sold of actively sold resorts during the first 12 months, it has decreased during the Riviera era.

I think the resorts don't have to be similar or in similar locations to compete. I considered AUL and CCV at the same time as RVA and I almost bought at CCV. Others on this thread have mentioned that they were going to buy RVA but ended up buying CCV. I have read posts from others who say they were going to buy RVA direct but ended up with SSR direct simply because it's less expensive to get the blue card.

I'll reiterate that we're all just speculating here, only DVD knows what they consider selling well enough. But I think given all the evidence folks have listed, it would be a stretch to call it a sales failure.

ETA: I know you are citing evidence, too (yay!) it's just that focusing on percentages seems off given all the other different variables

 

[Lorana]

Riviera is large, but it really didn't have as much competition from other actively sold resorts. Poly had Grand Floridian and Aulani. Copper Creek had Poly and to a much smaller extent Aulani. Riviera really only has the ghost of Aulani.

If you look at points sold of actively sold resorts during the first 12 months, it has decreased during the Riviera era.

Riviera has had Copper Creek for the entire time it’s been on sale (including now) competing against it, with CCV also having active incentives against it as well. I’m not sure why you’re saying it has only had Aulani, especially when sales numbers show that CCV continued to sell (I bought CCV direct over RIV in June).

And since June, RIV has had SSR, OKW, AKV, PVB and BLT being actively promoted against it with incentives, too.

 

[RoseGold]

It is strange, but reading this thread now makes it clear that the newest resort = most hated resort and that's just how it goes

That's not how it goes. I'm pretty sure all of us are defending DL Tower, and it doesn't even have a point chart, pricing, or even a building yet. Because it makes sense to pay more there, and we all expect it to be justifiably expensive.

 

[Lorana]

That's not how it goes. I'm pretty sure all of us are defending DL Tower, and it doesn't even have a point chart, pricing, or even a building yet. Because it makes sense to pay more there, and we all expect it to be justifiably expensive.

It is fair to say that historically, it is how it has gone with new DVC resorts.

DL Tower isn't built yet. When more details are revealed (theming, point charts, buy in cost, MFs), we may hear differently, especially when we are able to compare to VGC. Also, there has already been some criticism of the room capacity (only 4 in a studio by current floorplans), lack of balconies, heavy skewing towards studios. (I confess, I'm one of those already voicing criticism, as a family who needs 3 sleeping surfaces and would prefer more 1BRs).

But CA is a slightly different beast with there only being 1 existing DVC, and the parks literally being across from each other, so while location is still key in DL, there's less concerns over transportation and walkability.

 

[TexasChick123]

Regarding the new DL tower, we purchased VGC via resale even though the new DL tower was announced. We’re a family of 4 who doesn’t do studios except for a night or two. A studio-heavy resort which is further away and probably more expensive isn’t for us. Different strokes for different folks. My only regret with VGC is that it’s currently closed indefinitely.

 

[Wedgeout]

DL DVC is more for a niche purchaser. Really enjoys a DL resort stay, saving over the general prices, but also doesn’t mind paying more than staying at one of the nice hotel/resorts at DL’s doorstep.

 

[Wedgeout]

In regards to Riviera sales. I feel statistics would be even higher in sales, if it wasn’t built encroaching on a moderate resort. Caribbean Beach was the real winner. Received Riviera dining options and the only resort with a one flight Skyliner trip to two parks. Each of the other deluxe DVC locations don’t have a visual of a moderate or value resort.

 

[CastAStone]

DL DVC is more for a niche purchaser. Really enjoys a DL resort stay, saving over the general prices, but also doesn’t mind paying more than staying at one of the nice hotel/resorts at DL’s doorstep.

I agree with this to an extent. I'm speculating the resort will be about 4 million points; I think the first 1.5 million will sell quite quickly due to pent up demand among existing DVC owners, and then from there it will slow down considerably.

 

[Lva5]

So, Riviera has 20.49% through the first 12 months. Copper Creek had 28.89% and Poly had 21.49%.

Yeah, I'm not pinpointing the reason for sales decline. It could be any number of reasons and resale restrictions might not be a major part of it. I agree it may be tough given that people haven't stayed at the resort. Again, I think it is entirely plausible that sale skyrocket the latter half of the year.

Until we see that data, it hasn't really met what I would presume are the expectations. However, you are correct in that I don't know how DVC judges success. It might be a little bit of both. On one hand, they don't want to be owning the resort (paying for maintenance fees), waiting for the resort to sell out. On the other hand, they want to maximize profit.

You continuing to say that Riviera sales were disappointing doesn't make it so. It sold more than CCV. Sales as a percentage of the complete resort is an odd and nearly irrelevant metric on which to base any conclusions. Points are the medium of exchange; the only place percentage comes up is one small portion in the contract for legal reasons. A more informative metric would be gross sales or price x points sold.

 

[Doberge]

Riviera is large, but it really didn't have as much competition from other actively sold resorts. Poly had Grand Floridian and Aulani. Copper Creek had Poly and to a much smaller extent Aulani. Riviera really only has the ghost of Aulani.

Copper Creek and Riviera have overlapped. That Riviera had a month like January 2020 as only the 5th time in +10 years that a resort sold +180k points is commendable and can't be easily ignored. Riviera was doing really well.

You also keep undermining your own credibility by repeatedly comparing percent of resort sold over a period of time. If Riviera was a small resort, say 1 million points, would you praise for selling 100% within a year vs copper creek selling "only" 28% (or whatever the exact numbers are)?

At other times you've used rolling 12 month charts to compare CCV and Riviera. CCV was a largely known entity as part of WL. Riviera had a much longer period selling as an unknown resort. It's fair to compare the two but it's impractical to draw meaningful conclusions. Facts are that Riviera sold for a long time before opening and that sales were amazing thenfiest few months after opening, after becoming a known entity. Covid really screwed up trying to otherwise compare sales.

If you look at points sold of actively sold resorts during the first 12 months, it has decreased during the Riviera era.

This is your best point the one you'd do better arguing from. One could make a reasonable argument that hurt itself with restrictions and that the total sales numbers show this. Personally, I'd counter that many spent 2019 waiting to see what Riviera would look like as an open resort before deciding to take the plunge into DVC. I'd also point out how aggressive DVC has been with direct price increases since 2018 and how that negatively effected total sales.

 

[SL6827]

In regards to Riviera sales. I feel statistics would be even higher in sales, if it wasn’t built encroaching on a moderate resort. Caribbean Beach was the real winner. Received Riviera dining options and the only resort with a one flight Skyliner trip to two parks. Each of the other deluxe DVC locations don’t have a visual of a moderate or value resort.

I think CBR got a slap in the face with Riviera. I guess the extra dining options are nice but I would hate to be at CBR and open my door and see Riviera there. I have said before that I think Disney did both resorts wrong placing Riviera where they did.

 

[BruinEd03]

Copper Creek and Riviera have overlapped. That Riviera had a month like January 2020 as only the 5th time in +10 years that a resort sold +180k points is commendable and can't be easily ignored. Riviera was doing really well.

You also keep undermining your own credibility by repeatedly comparing percent of resort sold over a period of time. If Riviera was a small resort, say 1 million points, would you praise for selling 100% within a year vs copper creek selling "only" 28% (or whatever the exact numbers are)?

At other times you've used rolling 12 month charts to compare CCV and Riviera. CCV was a largely known entity as part of WL. Riviera had a much longer period selling as an unknown resort. It's fair to compare the two but it's impractical to draw meaningful conclusions. Facts are that Riviera sold for a long time before opening and that sales were amazing thenfiest few months after opening, after becoming a known entity. Covid really screwed up trying to otherwise compare sales.



This is your best point the one you'd do better arguing from. One could make a reasonable argument that hurt itself with restrictions and that the total sales numbers show this. Personally, I'd counter that many spent 2019 waiting to see what Riviera would look like as an open resort before deciding to take the plunge into DVC. I'd also point out how aggressive DVC has been with direct price increases since 2018 and how that negatively effected total sales.

I look at the numbers and make analysis. I mean, you can interpret it as being all unicorns and sunshine, but I don't. Like I said, I looked at it from various angles. None of them really scream that Riviera is doing really well aside from that 180k / month. However, even that has to be taken into context as it doesn't have competition from any other actively sold resort for the most part aside from the ghost of Aulani and the remnants of Copper Creek.

The % sales indicate how long it takes for a resort to sell out. It does matter because Riviera is on Disney's books until it sells out. Disney is responsible for Dues and the capital requried to build the structure. Disney has already paid for the building of Riviera. If it takes 2 v. 5 years to recoup the cost, that matters. The faster it gets its cash back, the faster it can use the money for something else, and the less interest it has to pay.

 

[jarestel]

There's very little doubt that Riviera will sell out, whether it takes 4 years or six years or 10 years and whether or not it has restrictions for one main reason... it's at WDW! OTOH, the nicest DVC resort (Aulani) may never sell out simply because it's not near a theme park.

Until all rooms have been declared, Disney simply rents out the non-declared rooms for cash. Depending on how long that takes, from a financial perspective it's like selling the contracts multiple times (cash room rentals and then DVC purchase) on some parts of the property. So ultimately, there's probably little reason to be overly concerned with the fate of Riviera.

 

[Ruttangel]

My personal opinion is that I would have expected RIV to significantly out perform CCV.
A new DVC build (not a resort bolt on), with free reign to design anything, anywhere.

Pre-Covid this shiny new model should have flown off the shelves.....
It just hasn’t captured the heart and souls of enough people.

 

[jennypenny]

Caribbean Beach was the real winner. Received Riviera dining options and the only resort with a one flight Skyliner trip to two parks.

I agree, and with the recent upgrades to the common areas at CBR, I sometimes wonder if a conversion of CBR to DVC units is in some kind of long term plan. They already have a sit down restaurant, a feature pool (nicer than some DVC pools), and plenty of transportation options. HS and EP will be the hot parks after the 50th, and CBR plays right into that.

As far as RVA, we'll never know what effect COVID had on sales compared to other factors like resale restrictions. The parks shut down three months after it opened, whereas even after 9/11 the parks stayed open. I think any stats about 2020 will/should have an asterisk after them. The trend seems to be that people like RVA more after they've visited, so I'd expect sales to jump once traffic picks up. If it doesn't, then we'll know the problems are probably because of other factors.

 

[Sandisw]

My personal opinion is that I would have expected RIV to significantly out perform CCV.
A new DVC build (not a resort bolt on), with free reign to design anything, anywhere.

Pre-Covid this shiny new model should have flown off the shelves.....
It just hasn’t captured the heart and souls of enough people.

That is possible for sure, but saying it didn’t go like gangbusters means sales are poor doesn’t have to be true,

It can still be selling well, but not lighting the world on fire, Disney knew it would be selling RIV alone and as mentioned, unless one is part of the team deciding expectations, it’s speculation.

IMO, Disney put out a completely different product with the resale restrictions so I find it hard to believe they didn’t go in expecting sales to look different but be competitive enough to make this the new norm,

Is it selling better than the others? Some data says yes. Will it take longer than CCV? Of course...it has more points.

Is it as popular as Poly or VGF? Probably not but not sure it has to be,

Again, sales pre Covid definitely support the product being accepted in spite of restrictions, Post Covid sales being depressed can not be linked to restrictions alone. However, Disney could decide it worth it to adjust them. But, 66K points when parks are at such a lower capacity and people are not traveling, doesn’t seem horrendous to me.

I find it an interesting move that they put small incentives on sold out resorts. That could be a way of supporting direct sales without messing with RIV immediately.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

My personal opinion is that I would have expected RIV to significantly out perform CCV.
A new DVC build (not a resort bolt on), with free reign to design anything, anywhere.

Pre-Covid this shiny new model should have flown off the shelves.....
It just hasn’t captured the heart and souls of enough people.

That's the thing though.....they all sell pretty much the same. Sure there are some statistical differences that probably have multiple factors of why they do or don't sell at the exact same pace but the onsite resorts are just not that different in performance of sales. Of course whether that meets DVC expectations? Probably not on a new build they promoted somewhat as a flagship.

 

[The Jackal]

Riviera has had Copper Creek for the entire time it’s been on sale (including now) competing against it, with CCV also having active incentives against it as well. I’m not sure why you’re saying it has only had Aulani, especially when sales numbers show that CCV continued to sell (I bought CCV direct over RIV in June).

And since June, RIV has had SSR, OKW, AKV, PVB and BLT being actively promoted against it with incentives, too.

Well CCV hasn’t really been competing with RIV since they raised the price to $220 per point. They did that so it would not compete. Some people just like one resort over the other. Some don’t like the resale restrictions. The high MF’s and points per night at RIV turn people off too. All resorts have always been for sale while others were newly built and promoted. I don’t think the $2 pp discount at sold out resorts is real competition for RIV. DVC is just making some easy sales with those.