Disney parks costs, crowds, and categorizations

[tlmadden73]

and I think it is fair to ask is Disney the "all American Family Destination" or is it more of a luxury item already? If you look at the categories that Disney data scientists examine, the LOWEST level of income group are people in the 50th-87th percentile. So they don't even consider half the country and the vast majority of the groups examined are in the top 20% percentile (there was some overlap)

And I think what Len is asking and a lot of the discussion around is: Is this what Disney should do - or overtime are you making the population of people willing to stretch their vacation budgets for Disney smaller and smaller by not enabling a broader group of people to get the "Disney experience", to build that loyalty that they can pass on to the next generation

Disney, heck, any major vacation with a big family is a luxury. It all depends on what type of experience you WANT (and can) afford.
The fact remains that Disney is in Florida. A long drive or plane ride away. Just GETTING there is expensive for your "average" family no matter what the pricing/policies are at WDW itself.

Things need a sense of "luxury" to drive demand. BECAUSE Disney IS seen as a luxury, it makes people desire it more, get excited for it and spend money on it. It works for brand-name clothing all the time. . I mean how many people drive past (and never go to) Busch Gardens, King's Dominion or Six Flags Over Georgia to get to WDW?

Because Disney is so expensive, sure, you may not get as many "yearly" visitors for big trips, but you will still get people coming 2-3 times while they have children at home and that will probably be enough to get them hooked. (I only went 3 times (for 1-3 day trips) as a child and I am hooked).

And just like any luxury item - you rarely will see a price drop because then it won't "feel" superior to the other products (even though it is) and so demand could actually DROP. Instead you'll just see promotions to lower the cost if they feel they need to. The higher the prices, the bigger promotions you can have and thus "tricking" the consumer into thinking they are getting a huge deal.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Disney, heck, any major vacation with a big family is a luxury. It all depends on what type of experience you WANT (and can) afford.
The fact remains that Disney is in Florida. A long drive or plane ride away. Just GETTING there is expensive for your "average" family no matter what the pricing/policies are at WDW itself.

Things need a sense of "luxury" to drive demand. BECAUSE Disney IS seen as a luxury, it makes people desire it more, get excited for it and spend money on it. It works for brand-name clothing all the time. . I mean how many people drive past (and never go to) Busch Gardens, King's Dominion or Six Flags Over Georgia to get to WDW?

Because Disney is so expensive, sure, you may not get as many "yearly" visitors for big trips, but you will still get people coming 2-3 times while they have children at home and that will probably be enough to get them hooked. (I only went 3 times (for 1-3 day trips) as a child and I am hooked).

And just like any luxury item - you rarely will see a price drop because then it won't "feel" superior to the other products (even though it is) and so demand could actually DROP. Instead you'll just see promotions to lower the cost if they feel they need to. The higher the prices, the bigger promotions you can have and thus "tricking" the consumer into thinking they are getting a huge deal.

i think that is all fair - but it seems there is some disagreement/confusion/whatever about what Disney is ... Is it a luxury or is it something every American should be able to experience?

 

[jade1]

My kids are in their 20's and went all the time as well. Now they still like it, but it's largely location (esp in the winter).

It's a cheap flight (just bought $74 round trips direct for March) and they love hanging at SAB or BWV on DVC points.

Very little effort involved.

They only hit the parks for a while in the evening with FP+ and night shows, then either D Springs or the BW.

Sprinkle in occasional golf, fishing, US and/or Clearwater Beach day with a foot of snow back home.

 

[jade1]

i think that is all fair - but it seems there is some disagreement/confusion/whatever about what Disney is ... Is it a luxury or is it something every American should be able to experience?

It can be priorities/choices as well.

I know families that "can't afford" to go, yet they spend $400 a month on iPhone bills and $400 a month on 1 car payment, and they are home at 5:10 every day and never work weekends.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

It can be priorities/choices as well.

I know families that "can't afford" to go, yet they spend $400 a month on iPhone bills and $400 a month on 1 car payment, and they are home at 5:10 every day and never work weekends.

reminds me of a post I saw with regards to the new iPhone: Queue the people who spend $1,000 on a new phone and then complain that healthy food is too expensive


You are right that it is all about prioritizing where you put your money for a lot of family. If you truly want to get to WDW I think most could make it happen at least once (obviously there are some that literally can't) but would have to sacrifice other areas. That is, put a higher % of their budget towards vacation than what Len quoted the typical family doing

Also I know as a kid we went about ever 3 years and the other years we would do much cheaper vacations.

 

[mshanson3121]

Disney, heck, any major vacation with a big family is a luxury. It all depends on what type of experience you WANT (and can) afford.
The fact remains that Disney is in Florida. A long drive or plane ride away. Just GETTING there is expensive for your "average" family no matter what the pricing/policies are at WDW itself.

Things need a sense of "luxury" to drive demand. BECAUSE Disney IS seen as a luxury, it makes people desire it more, get excited for it and spend money on it. It works for brand-name clothing all the time. . I mean how many people drive past (and never go to) Busch Gardens, King's Dominion or Six Flags Over Georgia to get to WDW?

Because Disney is so expensive, sure, you may not get as many "yearly" visitors for big trips, but you will still get people coming 2-3 times while they have children at home and that will probably be enough to get them hooked. (I only went 3 times (for 1-3 day trips) as a child and I am hooked).

And just like any luxury item - you rarely will see a price drop because then it won't "feel" superior to the other products (even though it is) and so demand could actually DROP. Instead you'll just see promotions to lower the cost if they feel they need to. The higher the prices, the bigger promotions you can have and thus "tricking" the consumer into thinking they are getting a huge deal.

I guess this depends on the person, honestly. To me, the idea that Disney is a luxury and superior, and that's what makes it desirable, is quite honestly a snobby, elitist attitude. And yes, there are many of those people going to Disney. In fact, I agree, Disney feeds off them. However, I really don't think they are the crowd that Walt initially developed Disney for. He developed it for the average family. Back in it's day, Disney was far more affordable for the average family. Disney however, over the last decade or two, have been increasingly pricing out the people Walt originally wanted included.

Meanwhile, there are people like me. Who do not desire Disney because it's a luxury or it's seen as being "superior". I/we/they desire to visit Disney, because it evokes that child-like feeling of hope and fantasy within you. Because it truly feels "magical" to be there, and it feels like dreams really could come true.

 

[JimmyBean42]

Disney, heck, any major vacation with a big family is a luxury. It all depends on what type of experience you WANT (and can) afford.
The fact remains that Disney is in Florida. A long drive or plane ride away. Just GETTING there is expensive for your "average" family no matter what the pricing/policies are at WDW itself.

Things need a sense of "luxury" to drive demand. BECAUSE Disney IS seen as a luxury, it makes people desire it more, get excited for it and spend money on it. It works for brand-name clothing all the time. . I mean how many people drive past (and never go to) Busch Gardens, King's Dominion or Six Flags Over Georgia to get to WDW?

Because Disney is so expensive, sure, you may not get as many "yearly" visitors for big trips, but you will still get people coming 2-3 times while they have children at home and that will probably be enough to get them hooked. (I only went 3 times (for 1-3 day trips) as a child and I am hooked).

And just like any luxury item - you rarely will see a price drop because then it won't "feel" superior to the other products (even though it is) and so demand could actually DROP. Instead you'll just see promotions to lower the cost if they feel they need to. The higher the prices, the bigger promotions you can have and thus "tricking" the consumer into thinking they are getting a huge deal.

I like your points here. The odd thing for me is, we all know Disney is expensive but so are the other parks. Busch Gardens one day ticket is above $100. Great Adventure (Six Flags in NJ) is above $75/day. And most parks food prices (I'm going with counter service) is comparable in price with not as good as a value. @tlmadden73 really hit the head on location. Whether driving or flying, pending where you come from both options can be costly. And if going all the way to FL you usually aren't doing a 2 day trip or shorter like you may do at Busch or a Six Flags location. Where Busch Gardens and Six Flags and others hold an advantage on WDW is there annual passes are way cheaper and they don't have resort properties. But they also aren't open year round.
One park that does have resort properties and that I find to be way more expensive than my Disney trips is Universal. And maybe I'm just reading the wrong threads or maybe WDW just holds that much more of a place in people's minds, but it doesn't feel like people complain about the Universal cost as much.

 

[JimmyBean42]

My kids, on the other hand, are not. They have been to WDW every year of their lives and enjoy the parks, but they both say that they wouldn't go on their own. They might or might not continue to visit WDW - depends largely on their future spouses. They could both take or leave WDW.

So if I'm looking at the bright side of this - you'll get adults only trips until maybe if you have grandchildren?

 

[BuckeyeBama]

So if I'm looking at the bright side of this - you'll get adults only trips until maybe if you have grandchildren?

Yep - my wife and I have taken a number of those already as my boys' interest has faded. They will be with us in WDW for Marathon weekend in January, then it may be a few years before they return.

 

[randumb0]

It gets extremely hot and humid in a lot of northeast schools and most do not have air conditioning.

No a/c? Wow is that a common thing?

 

[rteetz]

No a/c? Wow is that a common thing?

For schools not in the south yes. My elementary and middle schools did not have A/C but my high school did.

 

[tlmadden73]

It can be priorities/choices as well.

I know families that "can't afford" to go, yet they spend $400 a month on iPhone bills and $400 a month on 1 car payment, and they are home at 5:10 every day and never work weekends.

Agree.
I've always found family vacations important and thus that is something I prioritize in the family budget (time and money). I find it shocking when families say they can't afford to go on them. Every family's situation is different, but I still find a Disney vacation affordable. Going big or going every year (or both)? A luxury. Going once in a blue moon .. still quite affordable when you compare it to things like:

Cancel cable for a year and you can have a decent, yet short, Disney Vacation.
Abstain from the member of your family from getting iPhone 8 for a year or two and the money you save (technology is the most expensive when it first comes out) could be used to get a few nights at Disney Resort.

 

[bladiator]

Agree.
I've always found family vacations important and thus that is something I prioritize in the family budget (time and money). I find it shocking when families say they can't afford to go on them. Every family's situation is different, but I still find a Disney vacation affordable. Going big or going every year (or both)? A luxury. Going once in a blue moon .. still quite affordable when you compare it to things like:

Cancel cable for a year and you can have a decent, yet short, Disney Vacation.
Abstain from the member of your family from getting iPhone 8 for a year or two and the money you save (technology is the most expensive when it first comes out) could be used to get a few nights at Disney Resort.

Have had my Galaxy S4 for about 4 years now. Aaaaahhhh, the freedom from contract! And more money for Disney.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I like your points here. The odd thing for me is, we all know Disney is expensive but so are the other parks. Busch Gardens one day ticket is above $100. Great Adventure (Six Flags in NJ) is above $75/day. And most parks food prices (I'm going with counter service) is comparable in price with not as good as a value. @tlmadden73 really hit the head on location. Whether driving or flying, pending where you come from both options can be costly. And if going all the way to FL you usually aren't doing a 2 day trip or shorter like you may do at Busch or a Six Flags location. Where Busch Gardens and Six Flags and others hold an advantage on WDW is there annual passes are way cheaper and they don't have resort properties. But they also aren't open year round.
One park that does have resort properties and that I find to be way more expensive than my Disney trips is Universal. And maybe I'm just reading the wrong threads or maybe WDW just holds that much more of a place in people's minds, but it doesn't feel like people complain about the Universal cost as much.

To your last point, Universal usually follows Disney's lead when it comes to price increases - so I think some look at it that if Disney didn't increase than Universal wouldn't either

The other big thing is that Universal is constantly building new attractions and new areas, etc so it feels like your $ is going somewhere. Disney is doing that now but didn't (at least not as much as they should have) for many years

 

[TexasKiwiPrincess]

and I think it is fair to ask is Disney the "all American Family Destination" or is it more of a luxury item already? If you look at the categories that Disney data scientists examine, the LOWEST level of income group are people in the 50th-87th percentile. So they don't even consider half the country and the vast majority of the groups examined are in the top 20% percentile (there was some overlap)

And I think what Len is asking and a lot of the discussion around is: Is this what Disney should do - or overtime are you making the population of people willing to stretch their vacation budgets for Disney smaller and smaller by not enabling a broader group of people to get the "Disney experience", to build that loyalty that they can pass on to the next generation

The very first time I visited WDW I was 12. We camped at the Jellystone campgrounds off site- I don't even know if that place still exists. We packed a cooler, left it in the car and took meal breaks out to the parking lot. I bought one souvenir from the gift shop in the castle. Very bare bones trip. I remember a WDW commercial years ago, where the parents were in their home office, Dad sitting at the computer, Mom just stepped into the room, both looking at the computer screen and Mom says something like "Okay. We can afford that!" Even though the commercial seemed to promote how affordable a Disney vacation could be, you could tell by the clothes, the computer, the fact that they had a home office tastefully decorated, this was not a family in a lower socioeconomic bracket.

I agree with previous comments that a Disney vacation doesn't have to break the bank. (My kiddos were just as happy to eat sandwiches while waiting in line vs taking a break and finding a QS meal.) However, Disney definitely has the image of being a luxury vacation. My friends family and co-workers all comment on how expensive it is. I do my best to talk about ways to make a Disney vacation budget friendly, but as Len said, it can still be a lot more than what families usually spend on vacation. I think the learning curve associated with planning a Disney vacation has some impact as well. Many see it as a hassle, as work, and who wants to work on vacation?

I wonder if we will ever see a "First Time Magic" promotional campaign targeting families that have never visited WDW before. Doesn't necessarily have to be less expensive than what they offer now, just marketed towards families that have thought about a Disney vacation but haven't booked for one reason or another.

 

[MDH]

I apologize somewhere in these 10 pages this solution was mentioned, but i didn't have time to read all 10, just checked first and 10th.

I think part of what needs to happen is a real good recession. Honestly, there is just too much disposable income amongst a large group of the population (myself included) Disney trips are no longer once a lifetime, once every five years, or even once every year for many folks, it’s often MULTIPLE trips a year. I know I know, my money, I can do what I want with it. Any that’ absolutely accurate. But because of that we have parks that are full at all times without requiring them to really consider efforts for remediate the problem. If I had a machine that spit money, I’d probably not tinker with it too much, but I would keep cranking it up to see how much money I can get. Remove the fuel(everyones disposable income) and the machine needs to be retooled in other ways. Second to that, if we are in a time when disposable income will continue to be spent on holidays rather than saving for the “hard winter” like our parents or grandparents may have, then more competition is the answer. It’s been stated that Disney won’t build a 5th gate or expand majorly in this thread and I tend to agree, why would they, but IF a new player started stealing more and more of their fuel, well then I think we’d see some change and fast. Universal build a 5th gate based exclusively on their dream works properties, or maybe as someone suggested earlier, a Midwest location. If there was a kick *** resort with multiple theme parks in Texas, it could really draw a lot of the crowd that hits up florida on an annual basis or more.

 

[JimmyBean42]

To your last point, Universal usually follows Disney's lead when it comes to price increases - so I think some look at it that if Disney didn't increase than Universal wouldn't either

The other big thing is that Universal is constantly building new attractions and new areas, etc so it feels like your $ is going somewhere. Disney is doing that now but didn't (at least not as much as they should have) for many years

Great points. Never really thought of it as Universal following Disney's lead but I can see that. The one thing with Universal that gets me is paying for Express Pass. Luckily I was on-site but wow is that expensive. I guess if it were cheap everyone would buy it though. And 100% agree with Universal constantly building new attractions. Terminator 2 isn't shut down yet and whatever new attraction they build in that space will probably beat out ones that WDW has already broken ground on.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

i think that is all fair - but it seems there is some disagreement/confusion/whatever about what Disney is ... Is it a luxury or is it something every American should be able to experience?

Neither...

It was designed as a stable platform to promote their product to the largest swath of economic earners: the American middle class. Those that earn between the 25th and 75th percentile of the econmic earnings pattern.

Disney was never "cheap" nor made apologies about that...but it could be "affordable" for most...the current pricing strategy is on an arc that is outrunning average earnings.

That's fine...but they want 75 mil plus in Orlando every year and the pricing will make that impossible. Disney is currently deluded into what people's direct deposits say...or to be more specifics: how little they've grown.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Have had my Galaxy S4 for about 4 years now. Aaaaahhhh, the freedom from contract! And more money for Disney.

You'll be happy to know that contracts are basically gone now...because they no longer subsidize the phones.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Great points. Never really thought of it as Universal following Disney's lead but I can see that. The one thing with Universal that gets me is paying for Express Pass. Luckily I was on-site but wow is that expensive. I guess if it were cheap everyone would buy it though. And 100% agree with Universal constantly building new attractions. Terminator 2 isn't shut down yet and whatever new attraction they build in that space will probably beat out ones that WDW has already broken ground on.

And the express pass is a good point - lots of themeparks have some variation on that where there is an extra charge which, especially for a family, really adds up

Some things like hotels and food I think have gotten really expensive at Disney - but for the baseline entry ticket I still think you can get a lot of entertainment value out of it