Disney the segway and the ADA

[tarkus]

But the state of CA did give you a drivers license based on the fact that you exibited competency behind the wheel of your car...you had to pass a test. A rose by any other name. Simply because you would carry a certificate that you passed and completed a Segway safety course would not make the state liable any more than they are liable if you have an auto accident. Actually, I think insurance is also a great idea, I didn't know they'd write a policy for Segway use. I wonder why it is illegal to require folks to show proof of insurance or self-insurance to use it in public places...we have to in order to get a car license & tags. Unless Segway theft is a poblem, insurance rates could be highly discounted for those that complete a safety course. There are a lot of changes that could be made to the ADA to make it both more protective for the disabled and easier for public venues to determine who is and is not using a device for medical/mobility issues.
As another poster said, service animals in training have to be identified with special vests. Most service animals also have special harnesses and grip handles, easiliy identifying them as a trained service animal when they are "on duty." It is pretty easy to tell an "in service" animal from a family pet.

and that may or may not be so. But until then it's the law.

You are now reaching for an excuse for Disneys disregard for the law. I can't count the number of times I've read in this thread the the reason to ban Segways for the disabled is Disneys inability to control the scooter situation.

Or the ever present, without any point of fact, Segways running wild.

Sorry, Disney is out of compliance on this.

I made it thru Newark Airport this morning and not a person was killed, mamed or even bumped.

and there were more people in a tight space then Main Street at parade time.

I also find it offensive that anyone would even imply that any American should have to carry ones "papers" with them at all times just in case.

I would assume you would want the Disney renting scooter riders to carry the same info.

and those in wheelchairs........

and.........

 

[Talking Hands]

YOu know that going over and over this on a DISabilities Board will not change things. You need to deal with the issues directly with Disney. It may take time. It won't happen immediately. Persistance it the key word. I really think you have beaten it to death here.
An example of persistance was my working for over 3 years to get Disney to recognize that their rule requiring people using an ECV or power wheelchair to back up the ramp onto the bus was an unsafe action for my particular type of power wheelchair. After pointing out that my manufacturer clearly states the backing up an incline is unsafe and that the federal government accepts that a person operating a power wheelchair generally knows which way to enter a bus for their equipment it still took 3 years to resolve the issue.

 

[Chuck S]

and that may or may not be so. But until then it's the law.

You are now reaching for an excuse for Disneys disregard for the law. I can't count the number of times I've read in this thread the the reason to ban Segways for the disabled is Disneys inability to control the scooter situation.

Or the ever present, without any point of fact, Segways running wild.

Sorry, Disney is out of compliance on this.

I made it thru Newark Airport this morning and not a person was killed, mamed or even bumped.

and there were more people in a tight space then Main Street at parade time.

I also find it offensive that anyone would even imply that any American should have to carry ones "papers" with them at all times just in case.

I would assume you would want the Disney renting scooter riders to carry the same info.

and those in wheelchairs........

and.........

And you know no one in my family is in a wheelchair? We all have to carry papers with us at all times for various reasons. We have to have a drivers license with us when we operate a car, we have to have papers with us when the airpost thing beeps indicating metalic prosthetic implants. We have to have a Social Security Card with us to apply for employment. In Texas, we have to have ID on us at all times, whether driving or not, by law, in case a peace officer asks for ID. So one more card indicating that you have completed a course on Segway Safety is a deal breaker?

Again, scooters/ECVs can not travel at 12 mph, manual wheelchairs can not travel at 12 mph. Segways are a new technology that go faster than any other mobility device.

 

[SueM in MN]

Gwinfred- I must make a correction to your post saying that electric wheelchairs don't stop automatically. I have used an electric wheelchair full-time for 11 years (3 different models from Invacare). Every electric wheelchair has a built in automatic electric brake. Once you let go of the toggle, the brake initiates. The brake stays on until you push the toggle again.

That is true. Power wheelchairs don't have a traditional brake like a car does (where you have to do something specific to start braking. The computer only sends power to the motor that turns the wheels while the wheelchair driver is instructing it to by pushing on the joystick/toggle. When the driver stops pushing, the computer stops sending power and the automatic brake initiates.

Your comment about service dogs is also incorrect. My mom trained service dogs for the leading provider in Oklahoma. In order to be trained or allowed in a public area, they must have a distinguishing therapeutic vest and a leash. The owner is responsible for the dog's bathroom duties. Miniature Horses (another service animal) are held to the same standards. Monkeys have not been helpful as aids because they cannot be leaned on & used for stability like service animals that help with dressing must be able to. They also are not able to guide the blind...

Service animals usually wear something that distinguishes them as a service animal, but it isn't required under the ADA. The following is from the US Department of Justice FAQs about Service Animals:
3. Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?
A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.

Service animals in training are just animals to the ADA because they are learning, not actually helping anyone yet. It's possible that some states have passed laws that allow service animals in training to be in places where dogs are not usually allowed. If this is the case, those animals might be required to wear a vest or some other marking to show that they are in training.
I have seen monkeys (small cappuchine monkeys like organ grinders use to use) used by people who did not have use of their hands. Because the monkeys are able to hold and manipulate things well, they are able to do many things for their owners. The one I saw could place a straw in a glass, direct the straw to the owner's mouth and help him drink. That monkey could also brush the owner's teeth. The problem with monkeys is that once they reach sexual maturity, they can become unpredicatable and dangerous.

Finally, I posted this solution twice already:
I do think that qualified and trained people with disabilities should be allowed to use Segways. The solution: Handicap placards numbers are in a system that links the name to the person. My hospital (UCSF) gives free parking to people with disabilities. You give them your placard, they write it down, and your first initial and last name. They check the system to see if it's you. Now what if Disney had the user bring their disability placard & an ID. Then no one could use another person's placard. Then show proof of purchase of the Segway (with date). A certification-'license ' would be ideal but I'd say 6 months use should be enough. Finally, the guest signs a waiver saying they don't hold Disney liable for their injury and take legal responsibility for the injury of other park goers.

Can anyone find a problem with this solution or at least comment on it, now that it's been posted for the third time?

I think it would be one solution, but if the handicapped parking placards are administered by each state. I just don't see any entity coming forward to offer them.

 

[Gwinfred]

Gwinfred- I must make a correction to your post saying that electric wheelchairs don't stop automatically. I have used an electric wheelchair full-time for 11 years (3 different models from Invacare). Every electric wheelchair has a built in automatic electric brake. Once you let go of the toggle, the brake initiates. The brake stays on until you push the toggle again. I've had employees of Disney and hospital workers try with all their might to push my chair with the automatic electric brake on with no success. You can also pull the toggle backwards to stop faster.

Your comment about service dogs is also incorrect. My mom trained service dogs for the leading provider in Oklahoma. In order to be trained or allowed in a public area, they must have a distinguishing therapeutic vest and a leash. The owner is responsible for the dog's bathroom duties. Miniature Horses (another service animal) are held to the same standards. Monkeys have not been helpful as aids because they cannot be leaned on & used for stability like service animals that help with dressing must be able to. They also are not able to guide the blind...

As far as 'what if's' they are an integral part of law making. In the Student Congress I was involved in, part of the debating of the bill/resolution was to ask what if's and clarifications of the bill/resolution. Also hospitals cover what if's. Ethic committees-what if the patient isn't capable of making a decision?

Power wheelchair danger vs Segway danger tests. This study has a flaw-Unrepresentative Sample. This means that there is not a proper range of Segways being used in indoor public places as compared to power wheelchairs being used in indoor public places to do a proper study. A branch of Psychology is devoted to evaluating the conclusiveness of tests/studies. By their evaluating criteria, this study is null and void.

Finally, I posted this solution twice already:
I do think that qualified and trained people with disabilities should be allowed to use Segways. The solution: Handicap placards numbers are in a system that links the name to the person. My hospital (UCSF) gives free parking to people with disabilities. You give them your placard, they write it down, and your first initial and last name. They check the system to see if it's you. Now what if Disney had the user bring their disability placard & an ID. Then no one could use another person's placard. Then show proof of purchase of the Segway (with date). A certification-'license ' would be ideal but I'd say 6 months use should be enough. Finally, the guest signs a waiver saying they don't hold Disney liable for their injury and take legal responsibility for the injury of other park goers.

Can anyone find a problem with this solution or at least comment on it, now that it's been posted for the third time?

eternaldisneyfan

First of all I am a wheelchair user.

Second of all electric wheelchairs do not stop automatically like a Segway does; you do indeed have to let go of the toggle which deploys the brakes.

There have been many instances of people in power wheelchairs not realizing they were up against something or someone not releasing the toggle and causing damage or injury.

Because the Segway by design does not have a throttle its forward motion is caused by it tilting forward. When it encounters an object in front of it its tilt ability is negated and it no longer moves forward without any action from its user.

I'm not trying to turn this into a lesson for you about disability rights advocacy but I suggest you go to www.ada.gov and read up on the ADA and the technical service manuals which are are available there for you to study. As a person with a disability you should be very familiar with the law and all the nuances involved in it.

This from the DOJ's commonly asked questions about service animals in places of business.

3. Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?
A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.

A service animal must be under control but it's not required to be leashed and it certainly doesn't have to wear a vest. And yes I'm fully aware of miniature horses such as "Cuddles" which make terrific service animals. While monkeys may not be able to be leaned on I know several quadriplegics who use them for many other such as personal hygiene and retrieving objects and many others.

In terms of your psychology conclusion with regard to the the validity of the power wheelchair danger versus the Segway danger. Had we been speaking of a study based on statistical conclusions than your argument might have some validity however we were not. The basis of my statement was a study which drew their conclusions from the design and operating characteristics of each device. That is valid.

And finally with regard to your solution which you posted twice already:

For at least the last 60 years disability rights advocates have fought tooth and nail to obtain and to protect what rights you and I do have today as people with disabilities. Don't be be so quick to give them up.

Discounted parking isn't a right which we have as people with disabilities under federal law. It's nice that some entities provide it and in return they can ask us for proof of disability and hang tags on our cars identify us if we want to take part in it. That's perfectly legal and perfectly acceptable when someone is giving us something were not entitled to.

However, we are entitled to access either in a power wheelchair or a Segway or scooter and while I would have no problem posting a handicapped placard on any device I was using I would fight tooth and nail to protect the rights of those with disabilities who didn't feel that they should have to wear a Scarlet letter.

With regard to the waiver, do you have to sign one for your power wheelchair? This question is in the courts in California because disability rights advocates feel so strongly that this is a violation of the ADA that they've taken the issue to federal court.

I hope I'm not sounding to stern because that's not my intention, my intention is to try to motivate you to study the history of disability rights and to become as passionate about them as I am.

 

[Gwinfred]

3. Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?
A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.

Service animals in training are just animals to the ADA because they are learning, not actually helping anyone yet. It's possible that some states have passed laws that allow service animals in training to be in places where dogs are not usually allowed. If this is the case, those animals might be required to wear a vest or some other marking to show that they are in training.
I have seen monkeys (small cappuchine monkeys like organ grinders use to use) used by people who did not have use of their hands. Because the monkeys are able to hold and manipulate things well, they are able to do many things for their owners. .

Sue

Sorry for plowing the same ground twice It sometimes a long time compose a long post.

 

[tarkus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarkus
and that may or may not be so. But until then it's the law.

You are now reaching for an excuse for Disneys disregard for the law. I can't count the number of times I've read in this thread the the reason to ban Segways for the disabled is Disneys inability to control the scooter situation.

Or the ever present, without any point of fact, Segways running wild.

Sorry, Disney is out of compliance on this.

I made it thru Newark Airport this morning and not a person was killed, mamed or even bumped.

and there were more people in a tight space then Main Street at parade time.

I also find it offensive that anyone would even imply that any American should have to carry ones "papers" with them at all times just in case.

I would assume you would want the Disney renting scooter riders to carry the same info.

and those in wheelchairs........

and.........

And you know no one in my family is in a wheelchair? We all have to carry papers with us at all times for various reasons. We have to have a drivers license with us when we operate a car, we have to have papers with us when the airpost thing beeps indicating metalic prosthetic implants. We have to have a Social Security Card with us to apply for employment. In Texas, we have to have ID on us at all times, whether driving or not, by law, in case a peace officer asks for ID. So one more card indicating that you have completed a course on Segway Safety is a deal breaker?

Again, scooters/ECVs can not travel at 12 mph, manual wheelchairs can not travel at 12 mph. Segways are a new technology that go faster than any other mobility device.

Chuck,

With due respect, where in what I posted did you get that from ?

Show me where I spoke about your family?

Whats that all about ?

 

[eternaldisneyfan]

I wasn't suggesting that I am "entitled" to a waiver for discounted parking. And you wouldn't need to post the placard on the Segway. You present it to a specified CM with your ID-this verifies that you're disabled and that person. Then you can put the placard away.

Actually, I have extensively researched the disability laws. In fact, I read the ADA word for word. I have also visited the U.S. Access board. I do admit that my most extensive knowledge involves education laws (IDEA), IEP's, FAPE, etc as I had to fight tooth and nail to receive basic accommadations. I know from personal experience in Oklahoma that many basic aspects of the ADA (ramps for entry, curb cuts, accessible bathrooms, equal seating) are still not being enforced there.

I am passionate about disability rights. In high school I was involved with the NFL (National Forensics League) competitive speech program. I wrote my oratory on disability discrimination. I gave this 10 minute speech to 50+ judges on various cities in Oklahoma, a Lions club meeting, and at the National competition. It was runner-up at the State competition. (I now live in California) I am also a member of Advocates for Adults with Disabilities. So I would say I am passionate.

It's obvious that we both want to improve things for people with disabilities. I am always looking for more resources, what is DOJ?

 

[Gwinfred]

I wasn't suggesting that I am "entitled" to a waiver for discounted parking. And you wouldn't need to post the placard on the Segway. You present it to a specified CM with your ID-this verifies that you're disabled and that person. Then you can put the placard away.

Actually, I have extensively researched the disability laws. In fact, I read the ADA word for word. I have also visited the U.S. Access board. I do admit that my most extensive knowledge involves education laws (IDEA), IEP's, FAPE, etc as I had to fight tooth and nail to receive basic accommadations. I know from personal experience in Oklahoma that many basic aspects of the ADA (ramps for entry, curb cuts, accessible bathrooms, equal seating) are still not being enforced there.

I am passionate about disability rights. In high school I was involved with the NFL (National Forensics League) competitive speech program. I wrote my oratory on disability discrimination. I gave this 10 minute speech to 50+ judges on various cities in Oklahoma, a Lions club meeting, and at the National competition. It was runner-up at the State competition. (I now live in California) I am also a member of Advocates for Adults with Disabilities. So I would say I am passionate.

It's obvious that we both want to improve things for people with disabilities. I am always looking for more resources, what is DOJ?

Sorry for the abbreviation DOJ stands for Department of Justice.

We all have a tendency to focus on the issues which we are most affected by. While I focus on issues of access I must admit that I would be found lacking if I had to divulge my knowledge of regulations which affect the education laws.

Congratulations on your accomplishments have you ever visited the DRAFT web site or the wheelchairjunkie.com web site?

 

[SueM in MN]

You are now reaching for an excuse for Disneys disregard for the law. I can't count the number of times I've read in this thread the the reason to ban Segways for the disabled is Disneys inability to control the scooter situation.

I have not seen anyone saying that Disney should ban disregard the law or that they should even necessarily ban Segways. (except you and Gwinfred who are reading things into some of the things that some of us have written
and say that we are saying that, when we are not).

I have seen a lot of people on this thread saying "this is my interpretation of Disney's position......these are possible consequences of them letting anyone bring in a Segway......these are things that need to be thought about."

YOu know that going over and over this on a DISabilities Board will not change things. You need to deal with the issues directly with Disney. It may take time. It won't happen immediately. Persistance it the key word. I really think you have beaten it to death here.
An example of persistance was my working for over 3 years to get Disney to recognize that their rule requiring people using an ECV or power wheelchair to back up the ramp onto the bus was an unsafe action for my particular type of power wheelchair. After pointing out that my manufacturer clearly states the backing up an incline is unsafe and that the federal government accepts that a person operating a power wheelchair generally knows which way to enter a bus for their equipment it still took 3 years to resolve the issue.

Talking Hands has stated this very well.
I know she worked very hard to get Disney to change a policy about power wheelchairs and buses.
That situation came about because of an incident where an ECV was going forward on a ramp into a bus and tipped over (due to the fact that an ECV has the majority of the weight over the back wheels).
Due to not understanding the difference between power wheelchairs and ECVs, Disney made a policy that all had to be backed up the ramp (which was safe for ECVs, but not for power wheelchairs).
Several other people on this board (me included) gave information to some concerned CMs so that they could educate the policy makers about the consequences of this policy (the "What Ifs" that you have complained about us mentioning regarding the Segways).
What got the policy changed was NOT hitting Disney over the head with the law - what it took was persistance and education, because Disney truly thought their policy was the only safe way.

Some of us are using our knowledge of that situation to suggest ways to deal with Segways in a similar way. That's where the "What Ifs" are coming from and why. But, if all you want to do is keep twisting what we are saying and repeating that we are saying Disney should be allowed to break the law, we are not going to want to continue the discussion.

And, interestingly, since it keeps being brought up that Disney is out of compliance with the law, here's what the Segway website has to say about the Segway and the ADA in their FAQs (my bold):

I have an injury or a disability. Can I use the Segway? What about the ADA?
It depends on the nature of the disability or injury, but very possibly yes. If you have the use of one arm (the standard layout requires the left arm, although we can provide a customized design if your left arm can't be utilized) and one leg (either leg), and still have a sense of direction and center of gravity, you can operate a Segway. It is our belief that the Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 does cover the use of a Segway if it is the best way for you to get around, especially if your doctor has prescribed its use. However, we are not legal experts and you must seek the advice of an expert for the definitive answer, although there may not be one yet. Segway has not sought, nor will they seek, medical status or ADA approval of the Segway. For your convenience, we have prepared a two-page core PDF version of the ADA with essential excerpts; it is not the full text.
Source: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm

EDITED TO ADD: At the time I posted this, I thought it was the Segway site because of how it came up on my search and the language used on the FAQs makes it sound like they are speaking for the company.
The quote is actually from a website called www.segwow.com . The actual Segway site is www.segway.com and they do not have a FAQs page that I could find. In doing a search of the actual Segway website, nothing came up for ADA and the only results for "disabilities" were broken links to 2 news stories.
The FAQs page bolded this part of the two page core PDF version of the ADA essential excerps that they provided a link to:

(iii) a failure to take such steps as may be necessary to ensure that no individual with a disability is excluded, denied services, segregated or otherwise treated differently than other individuals because of the absence of auxiliary aids and services.

The next part of that section would be what I think Disney would probably use as their reason why not to allow Segways (my bold):

unless the entity can demonstrate that taking such steps would fundamentally alter the nature of the good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation being offered or would result in an
undue burden.

I don't claim to be an expert on Segways, Disney, law or the ADA; just a parent of a child with multiple disabilities and some opinions about how things work. But, if you don't want my help, I'm just going to moderate this thread for inappropriate content or actions.

 

[Chuck S]

Chuck,

With due respect, where in what I posted did you get that from ?

Show me where I spoke about your family?

Whats that all about ?

I surmised the implication from

I also find it offensive that anyone would even imply that any American should have to carry ones "papers" with them at all times just in case.

I would assume you would want the Disney renting scooter riders to carry the same info.

and those in wheelchairs........

and.........

To me it indicated that that you thought I could not understand the implications/feeling of having to carry papers - If that is not what you were implying, my apologies. We do not have the advantage on bulletin boards of verbal subtleness and inflections, and misunderstandings of what is posted do happen.

But again my point, we as Americans have to carry many forms of ID with us for different occasions. A card indicating successful completion of a safety course for a new technology that has the capability to be operated at speeds much faster than one walks or even jogs, would not be a problem to me. Nor would having to carry a card saying that I've completed a course in wheelchair or ECV safety, provided of course that Disney (or any venue) would have given me ample notice of the requirement to give me adequate time to comply, and that such a class was available for free or nominal charge at a location that was within a convenient distance of where I live.

EDIT: While I have not met SueM, I have met Talking Hands on several occasions, and I would never have known by looking at her power chair that backing up ramps could pose a danger. I'm sure this was the case with those that made the Disney policy as well. Bravo to those that worked within the system to bring that information to the Disney policy makers. BTW, I still haven't seen one of the ramp buses, every one we've used has been the "old style" where the steps turn into a lift. Are the ramp buses better/easier?

 

[tarkus]

I surmised the implication from

To me it indicated that that you thought I could not understand the implications/feeling of having to carry papers - If that is not what you were implying, my apologies. We do not have the advantage on bulletin boards of verbal subtleness and inflections, and misunderstandings of what is posted do happen.
But again my point, we as Americans have to carry many forms of ID with us for different occasions. A card indicating successful completion of a safety course for a new technology that has the capability to be operated at speeds much faster than one walks or even jogs, would not be a problem to me. Nor would having to carry a card saying that I've completed a course in wheelchair or ECV safety, provided of course that Disney (or any venue) would have given me ample notice of the requirement to give me adequate time to comply, and that such a class was available for free or nonimal charge at a location that was within a convenient distance of where I live.

EDIT: While I have net SueMN, I have met Talking Hands on several occasions, and I would never have known by looking at her power chair that backing up ramps could pose a danger. I'm sure this was the case with those that made the Disney policy as well. Bravo to those that worked within the system to bring that information to the Disney policy makers. BTW, I still haven't seen one of the ramp buses, every one we've used has been the "old style" where the steps turn into a lift. Are the ramp buses better/easier?

Me being overly sensitive, I'm sorry.

You bring up a great point about "verbal subtleness and inflections".

All this would be so much better if it were not so faceless.

Alan

 

[Gwinfred]

I have not seen anyone saying that Disney should ban disregard the law or that they should even necessarily ban Segways. (except you and Gwinfred who are reading things into some of the things that some of us have written
and say that we are saying that, when we are not).


And, interestingly, since it keeps being brought up that Disney is out of compliance with the law, here's what the Segway website has to say about the Segway and the ADA in their FAQs (my bold):

They bolded this part of the two page core PDF version of the ADA essential excerps that they provided a link to:

The next part of that section would be what I think Disney would probably use as their reason why not to allow Segways (my bold):


I don't claim to be an expert on Segways, Disney, law or the ADA; just a parent of a child with multiple disabilities and some opinions about how things work. But, if you don't want my help, I'm just going to moderate this thread for inappropriate content or actions.

First of all I think this has been a very nice discussion and I appreciate everyone's input. I think the fundamental difference is that from many of our perspectives we find Disney's position illegal and offensive to all people with disabilities. If it's all right to violate one group of people with disabilities rights then another is emboldened to violate the rights of other people with disabilities.

As a mother with a child with multiple disabilities I'm sure that you have your hot buttons.

I don't suppose anyone would be here continuing a thread with 125 plus replies if they didn't need or want your help.

By the way the link that you gave isn't to Segways web site. I was startled to see in the language which you quoted as being from their web site until I went to this web site and found that it wasn't from Segway at all. While it seems to be from a dealer's web site it's certainly isn't the official company policy. if you want to know about the Segway and the ADA I suggest you visit the DRAFT web site.

www.draft.org

 

[SueM in MN]

EDIT: While I have not met SueM, I have met Talking Hands on several occasions, and I would never have known by looking at her power chair that backing up ramps could pose a danger. I'm sure this was the case with those that made the Disney policy as well. Bravo to those that worked within the system to bring that information to the Disney policy makers. BTW, I still haven't seen one of the ramp buses, every one we've used has been the "old style" where the steps turn into a lift. Are the ramp buses better/easier?

The ramp buses are easier and faster to use and there is less to go wrong with them than the lift buses (DD and I have been stuck on a lift that went part way up and refused to go any farther - not fun).
I personally don't like the lifts. It's sort of like being on an elevator with walls that are only 4 inches high. I always worry about going off the edge of the lift platform. DD doesn't seem to mind them.

 

[Chuck S]

The ramp buses are easier and faster to use and there is less to go wrong with them than the lift buses (DD and I have been stuck on a lift that went part way up and refused to go any farther - not fun).
I personally don't like the lifts. It's sort of like being on an elevator with walls that are only 4 inches high. I always worry about going off the edge of the lift platform. DD doesn't seem to mind them.

I know, we had a lift bus that lifted half-way and wouldn't go up any farther. Fortunately, it did go down again, so we had to wait for the next bus. There was also one time that the bus floor was worn so it stuck out a little into the lift area, caught my back pocket/wallet on the way up and ripped my pants so I had to go back to the room and change.

 

[SueM in MN]

There was also one time that the bus floor was worn so it stuck out a little into the lift area, caught my back pocket/wallet on the way up and ripped my pants so I had to go back to the room and change.

Sorry, I have to do this.
I have seen those rough places and warned DH to be careful when he goes up the lift with DD. Same thing could have easily happened to him.

 

[Gwinfred]

Just something of interest for this topic:

http://www.startribune.com/466/story/269856.html



Melvin Sand pushed for Segway acceptance
The Minneapolis man was always on the go, even in his 90s.
Anthony Lonetree, Star Tribune

When Melvin Sand talked Metro Transit into allowing Segway human transporters onto metro-area buses in 2003, his kids weren't at all surprised.
One might guess, however, that fellow passengers thought him an unlikely pioneer.

He was 95 years old at the time.

Sand, of Minneapolis, who died Feb. 13 of a stroke at 97, was introduced to Star Tribune readers in September 2003 in a front-page story relating the difficulties that Segway owners were having in storing the then-new people-movers.

He was a man always on the move, said Marlene Hanson, his daughter, and Kenneth Sand, one of his two sons. At 77, Melvin Sand roofed his daughter's house on his own. And at 93, he tore apart a damaged porch outside his son's home in St. Louis Park and used what he could of the wood to build a shed in the back yard.

"He was something," Kenneth Sand said.

In 2003, Melvin Sand told the Star Tribune that he first saw a Segway - a battery-powered device resembling an upright vacuum cleaner with wheels - motor in front of him while he was walking in downtown Minneapolis.

"I decided, 'I'd like to have one of those,' " he said.

After bus drivers expressed reservations about letting him on with the Segway, Sand demonstrated the device for Metro Transit officials and persuaded them to issue a bulletin to drivers allowing the machines to be stored on the buses' wheelchair lifts.

Sand would use his Segway to ride from a St. Louis Park bus stop to his son's home, and to visit construction sites downtown. A retired sheet-metal worker, he loved watching buildings go up, his daughter said.

When his family emptied his apartment, Marlene Hanson added, they found two construction hard hats that had been given to him by companies working downtown.

Sand's Segway now is for sale, Kenneth Sand said, for $2,250 at Segway of Minnesota, 13009 Ridgedale Drive, Minnetonka.

In addition to son Kenneth and daughter Marlene, Sand is survived by a second son, Melvin Sand Jr.; 10 grandchildren; 11 great-grandchildren; five great-great grandchildren, and a sister, Elsie Wiley. He was preceded in death by his wife, Dorothy.

Services have been held.

Anthony Lonetree • 612-673-4455

©2006 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.

 

[Schmeck]

I'd like to ask a question from another perspective - how can it be legal to ban able-bodied people from using Segways at WDW if they do eventually let disabled people use them? Isn't that against the law, written into the ADA as 'granting equal but not superior access' to paraphrase? I've been trying to find the link that has this section of the ADA in it, but I haven't been able to find it.

They can't ban me from using a scooter if others can use a scooter, they can't ban me from coming in with an electric wheelchair if I had one either, could they? For example, we have access to an old electric wheelchair that belonged to a friend who passed away. If my mom chose to use it on our next trip, would she be allowed? She has bad knees, but does not have a disabled placard for her car or anything like that.

 

[Chuck S]

I'd like to ask a question from another perspective - how can it be legal to ban able-bodied people from using Segways at WDW if they do eventually let disabled people use them? Isn't that against the law, written into the ADA as 'granting equal but not superior access' to paraphrase? I've been trying to find the link that has this section of the ADA in it, but I haven't been able to find it.

They can't ban me from using a scooter if others can use a scooter, they can't ban me from coming in with an electric wheelchair if I had one either, could they? For example, we have access to an old electric wheelchair that belonged to a friend who passed away. If my mom chose to use it on our next trip, would she be allowed? She has bad knees, but does not have a disabled placard for her car or anything like that.

I think that phrase is part of a larger clause (and I'm paraphrasing) that says that public accomodation must grant reasonable equal access, but can not be compelled by law to grant "superior" access. They may grant superior access if they choose to do so. However, equal vs. superior are pretty broad and vague concepts under the law (not just the ADA, law in general), and are often decided in civil proceedings.

 

[Schmeck]

Thanks Chuck, for the clarification!

So, it sounds like my mom could use the electric wheelchair if she wanted to. At this point she's more likely to get a scooter, but she knows how to use/handle the electric wheelchair as well. Hopefully the next round of doctor appts about her knees will finally show what in the world is causing her so much pain.