Do You Consider Yourself a Feminist?

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Now I understand my puzzlement and please excuse me for this story. After we had been married for around 15 years (we lived together a couple years before that) my wife said-you never did buy an engagement ring even though you said you would and I replied indignantly-well yes I did. I thought about it and realized she was right and then we went together and bought an engagement ring.

No worries It's never too late

I don't know that it's very common really at all but with the design of my ring it actually doubles as both my engagement and my wedding ring in one. I don't have an additional band nor would I want one with the design such that it is. I don't even remember if the description of the ring listed it as engagement or wedding TBH when we bought the setting. No one has vocalized something like "oh when's the wedding" like they didn't think it was the actual wedding ring itself so I'm assuming they assume it's my wedding ring as opposed to my engagement ring though I could be wrong on that.

 

[kiddo76]

I didn’t ask what it’s called. I know that. I asked how many. .3-.7%. Doesn’t seem that it really “happens all the time”.

It is common enough that any responsible fertility clinic would discuss the option of selective reduction with any couple seeking treatment. Whether a couple is open to selective reduction affects the approach to treatment. When DH and I started down our ART path (which ended unsuccessfully with 2 IVF cycles), we made the decision that we would not choose to selectively reduce, so the doctor directed us to a more conservative approach.

 

[ReneeA]

Must we continue to speak in extreme circumstances? It’s a bit tiring.

How is that extreme? They grow a FERTILIZED egg (same as a women at 6-8 weeks pregnant) in a Petri dish, make sure it's viable and implant a certain number into a "prepped" host. She's then 6-8 weeks pregnant - the same number of weeks as those cells grown in a dish. If they aren't implanted, they're flushed after a being frozen for awhile. But they are still fertilized and potentially viable if implanted successfully.

You NEED a willing host to grow them. This is exactly what IVF is. It's done every single day in this country and around the world.

 

[luvsJack]

Back to the feminist question, I just returned this afternoon from a bridal shower of a family member.

I didn't realize people still believed this way but did make me understand some of the responses better on this thread.

It was a bunch of older women telling an engineer in her early 30's that she needed to be submissive to her husband. And there was no hidden meaning because they spent the next hour giving examples like she needed to always have dinner on the table, that the home was the husband's haven (even after it was brought up that she was the main breadwinner,) that she must acquiesce to the husband's wishes, that his word was always final no matter what, that it was her job to keep the children quiet when the "man" came home, and on and on. The women were miffed when asked what the men do for the women and their answer was that woman was created to serve man.

There is a whole group out there that actually believes a woman's job is to subjugate herself to the man.

I don't think they noticed the bride rolling her eyes at the women.

But it is these attitudes that keep women as 2nd class citizens, the women who believe that men should be allowed to give permission for a woman to do something. It was stunning to hear these women actually want to be submissive.

Lol I certainly hope you are not implying that those who have said they are not feminists or have said they are pro life MUST be submissive to their husbands. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Dd and I were discussing this just the other day. She was appalled that a friend of hers said her husband would not “allow” her to get her hair cut. Since she and sil are very close to the couple, I suggested she lead by example.

A few years ago the Baptist Convention said something about women being submissive to their husbands. I thought a few heads would explode. Our poor preacher got an ear full from several women in the church. His wife just sat in the pew and grinned. To know her would be to know she is the least “submissive” wife in the bunch.

I do know older women that do believe this but very few honestly. And the ones that do seem to be quite happy with their lot in life.

 

[mnrose]

Happens all the time. Fertility clinics call it "selective reduction".

That actually happens VERY rarely anymore. Most legitimate fertility clinics implant so few embryos (even in women of advanced maternal age) that the incidence of higher order multiples (e.g., 3+) is extremely rare anymore. I don't think you know as much about "IVF" as you think you do. 20 years ago? Maybe. Today, only clinics who are "off the rails" end up with higher order multiples. Back in the day, my clinic called triplets plus "a failure" on their part. It's NOT good medicine. Today, the clinic I used WILL NOT implant more than 2 embryos, PERIOD, even in women of the age I was when I did IVF 20+ years ago.

It's not IVF that causes most order multiples, BTW. It's IUI, which is where the McCoy septuplets came from BTW....they had sex against doctor's orders and we all know how that ended.

Sorry, I get on my soapbox when I read crap like this.

 

[pahoben]

It is common enough that any responsible fertility clinic would discuss the option of selective reduction with any couple seeking treatment. Whether a couple is open to selective reduction affects the approach to treatment. When DH and I started down our ART path (which ended unsuccessfully with 2 IVF cycles), we made the decision that we would not choose to selectively reduce, so the doctor directed us to a more conservative approach.

You have been through a lot and so you can offer a lot more about these issues than most people.

 

[pahoben]

That actually happens VERY rarely anymore. Most legitimate fertility clinics implant so few embryos (even in women of advanced maternal age) that the incidence of higher order multiples (e.g., 3+) is extremely rare anymore. I don't think you know as much about "IVF" as you think you do. 20 years ago? Maybe. Today, only clinics who are "off the rails" end up with higher order multiples. Back in the day, my clinic called triplets plus "a failure" on their part. It's NOT good medicine. Today, the clinic I used WILL NOT implant more than 2 embryos, PERIOD, even in women of the age I was when I did IVF 20+ years ago.

It's not IVF that causes most order multiples, BTW. It's IUI, which is where the McCoy septuplets came from BTW....they had sex against doctor's orders and we all know how that ended.

Sorry, I get on my soapbox when I read crap like this.

I don’t think you should call anyone’s IVF experience crap. In many cases excess embryos are produced and disposed of at one point or another. In the case of previous failure more embryos might be implanted in subsequent cycles by a reputable clinic at the direction of the patients. You were very fortunate to have success on you first attempt but some are not so fortunate. In your case were there any excess embryos that weren’t implanted?

 

[kiddo76]

That actually happens VERY rarely anymore. Most legitimate fertility clinics implant so few embryos (even in women of advanced maternal age) that the incidence of higher order multiples (e.g., 3+) is extremely rare anymore. I don't think you know as much about "IVF" as you think you do. 20 years ago? Maybe. Today, only clinics who are "off the rails" end up with higher order multiples. Back in the day, my clinic called triplets plus "a failure" on their part. It's NOT good medicine. Today, the clinic I used WILL NOT implant more than 2 embryos, PERIOD, even in women of the age I was when I did IVF 20+ years ago.

It's not IVF that causes most order multiples, BTW. It's IUI, which is where the McCoy septuplets came from BTW....they had sex against doctor's orders and we all know how that ended.

Sorry, I get on my soapbox when I read crap like this.

I am well informed about ART. 10-13 years ago, I went through 3 cycles on metformin, 3 cycles of ovulation stimulation with timed intercourse, 3 cycles of IUI, 1 full IVF cycle with ICSI (2 embryos transferred) and one FET (again with 2 embryos).

You are correct that multiple embryo transfers are becoming less common, not because of ethical reasons, but because advanced research had indicated that that multiple embryo transfers do not have that much greater successful live birth rates than single transfers. Clinics are all about live birth rates.

There has also been some research that shows FET may provide better success rates with the theory that the embryos that survive the freeze and thaw cycle are superior and have a greater chance resulting in a live birth. This could also mean that more embryos are destroyed in the process.

 

[luvsJack]

You have tried to justify why you think that some babies' lives are not worth saving while others are. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First you say that it is about being a baby's voice, protecting the unborn who didn't ask to be conceived, preservation of life.

Then you say, weeeellllll...it is perfectly fine to kill babies under conditions x,y,z.

You are the definition of choice. You and the government are making choices on what babies will die.

If you are ok with some babies dying under your choices, then you should be perfectly ok with babies babies dying under a doctor's and mother's choice.

What makes your choice of which babies get to die more important than a doctor's or mother's choice?

I have not said any baby’s life is not worth saving. But I believe all lives are worthy. Some circumstances should result in different options. And you are still harping on a very small percentage of all abortions. What about the other 95%?

When a woman and man choose to have sex, they are choosing to take a chance on a baby being created. Choose to have sex. Not have it forced upon them. I would love to say that all rape victims should have their baby but I don’t believe that works with concern about the mother’s physical and mental health. So in that situation there is no good choice.

But you know what? There is really no point in my answering you. No matter what I say, you will twist it, so carry on. You are welcome to your beliefs and I will continue mine.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I don't really watch her stuff, but Full Frontal with Samantha Bee has a piece on Sex Education for Senators. (a friend linked the FB post to me on FB. I won't post the link here because of the language involved.) A serious topic, with her brand of humor.

It's a few years old, I think, but Last Week Tonight did a dhow on abortion legislation - also available on youtube (also not linked due to profanity.)

 

[mnrose]

I don’t think you should call anyone’s IVF experience crap. In many cases excess embryos are produced and disposed of at one point or another. In the case of previous failure more embryos might be implanted in subsequent cycles by a reputable clinic at the direction of the patients. You were very fortunate to have success on you first attempt but some are not so fortunate. In your case were there any excess embryos that weren’t implanted?

Not successful on my first attempt. My point was simply that selective reduction RARELY happens anymore among reputable IVF clinics because no one likes doing them, and they are a serious risk to the pregnancy as a whole. Clinics have gotten a LOT smarter at identifying viable embryos in the 20 years since I did my IVF. Yes, we had the selective reduction speech from our doctor, but that did not stop him (or us) from transferring 5 the first time and 7 the second. Fortunately, I had "only" twins. But, it was a heart wrenching "forever" moment while he was counting fetuses between "I see one, two.......and no more." Since then, it happens MUCH more rarely.

I had no excess embryos my first cycle (they implanted all that I had because the quality was poor, and I was 40). The second cycle we had marginally better quality, but again we transferred all. For financial and emotional reasons (it is a very difficult process), we had decided that we would not try again. And, I (like many women in this position) are absolute desperate to be pregnant. I might not have been making the best decision in that moment when 7 embryos were transferred. Fortunately, it worked for us.

I am a huge fan of IVF and what it has done to bring families to those who otherwise would not have had them. My twins are absolute miracles as far as I'm concerned. And, I'm glad the technology has gotten better and better to be more precise and able to give couples the family they want, and no more.

I also fear the present craze which seems to have overtaken our country to regulate everything related to pregnancy. If they had their way, there are people who would like to see IVF undone...precisely because it creates "excess" embryos. If you grant "personhood" to a blastocyst, IVF is a goner. A blastocyst is essentially (or very close...we are talking 48-72 hours at MOST) the same as a 6 week pregnancy.

 

[Colleen27]

The Ohio law does not allow contraception that would prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg (they claim that is an abortion). So an iud and most birth control pills because they have the duel effect of minimizing the possibility of fertilization and change the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation.

And Plan B (a.k.a. the morning after pill), which is invaluable for preventing pregnancy in the case of rape or known birth control failure.

Isn’t the first sign of ovarian cancer found in a pelvic exam?

According to what I just read, less than 1/3 of rapes are reported to the police. How do we change that? I mean that as a serious question. Who is discouraging them?

You're thinking of cervical cancer. There is no routine screening that catches ovarian cancer. Often, the first sign of ovarian cancer is abdominal pain, similar to menstrual cramping, along with bloating and intestinal issues. At least that's how both of the women I know who have died from it described it. And women who go to the doctor with those complaints don't tend to be taken seriously; it tends to be assumed to be a menstrual or menopausal issue, while the cancer continues to grow unchecked.

Everything about our culture is why women don't report rape. The victim blaming and the fact that her consensual sex life, what she was wearing, how much she'd had to drink, if she'd ever been friendly or romantic with her attacker all come under the microscope, the fact that "but he has a bright future" is an effective defense that can let him walk free even if convicted, the fact that from ER to police department to courtroom, the victim has to relate her story to one man after another, many of whom are likely to express open skepticism and challenge her account, the fact that trials and appeals can stretch on for months or years which can make it hard for the victim to heal and move forward, etc.

And the dismal conviction rates don't help either - of every thousand rapes, about 250 are reported but only 10 are prosecuted and half of those are convicted. With odds like that, only the most exceptional women are going to put themselves through the additional trauma of the criminal process.

Women have recourse under the law for wage discrimination.

Only if they can prove the pay gap is solely because of gender, which can be virtually impossible to do. First, many employers prohibit employees from discussing salary, so just knowing that she's being paid less is grounds for termination. Great incentive not to file a complaint. And second, unless the two resumes are exactly the same, the employer has a built-in defense by saying Joe's university or internship or previous company has produced better workers than Jane's, and so it was that, rather than gender, that led to the better offer.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The major hirers of graduates are Corporations that have salaries based on specific and long standing job descriptions that have no basis on sex. An entry level engineer makes x and an entry level accountant makes y. The salaries are very specific. Male and female entry level engineers have the same salaries.

Disparities increase as time passes. Maybe it's general sexism, maybe it's because women take off more time (years) to raise children than men do...

Not sure what not taxing a product is going to do. In my states it’s .07 on the dollar. Not really enough to be up in arms about.

Seven cents on a dollar is minimal, although much kore than no tax. If you live in a state that taxes everything, no big deal. I happen to live in a syate that doesn't tax necessities, period supplies included.

Some insurance compamies cover ED medication but not birth control. How in the world is that equality?

 

[pahoben]

/applause
It should not be up to you or a politician to decide what happens to a clump of cells in another person's body. It is up to the person whose body those cells are in.



My mother in law tried pulling something similar with me one day last October. In our house, DH works, I stay home. It has not always been the case; there have been times when we've both worked, times when it was just me, and times when we were both out of work. I tend to do the majority of housework, cooking, laundry, shopping, etc. DH will do it, but for now, with me being at home, I find it makes me feel better.

Anyways, she stayed with us for a brief time (thank goodness...that's a whole nother story). I was making dinner, and I made up plates for everyone, as I usually do, and called them all to dinner. After dinner, DH and DS put their plates in the dishwasher. She turned to DH and asked why he didn't just leave the plate for me to clean up. He told her that he was perfectly capable of rinsing and putting a plate in the dishwasher. I just looked at her, and told DS he was on kitchen duty that night. DS cleaned the kitchen, and she just sat there, like it was some amazing thing. IDK why, as DH was the one cleaning her house when he still lived at home.

A few days later, I grabbed the car keys (we only have one car) and told DH I was going shopping and then to get my hair cut. I asked my MIL if she wanted to go, and she got ready and we left. As I was backing out of the driveway, she asked if DH gave me enough money to get my hair done and to buy what I wanted. I stopped and blinked at her, and said I had my own credit cards, and while yes, DH's money earned from work paid the bills on them, if I wanted to buy a new outfit or a pair of shoes or get my hair dyed purple and pink polka dots, I would not ask DH for permission. Blew her mind, I think.

My DDs teamed up and got me a new Kitchenaid stand mixer for Christmas. When she saw it, her comment was "their husbands must like you, to let them spend that money on you." I just laughed at her and told her both my girls work, and they work with their husbands on their finances, just as I do with DH, but their husbands had no say so in what they spend their money on.

She only lasted 4ish months at my house. (again, a long story)

We have twin 6 year old girls and had them in Ju Jitsu for a year. They didn’t really like it and so my wife and I decided to stop lessons until they are 9 or 10. Last week I had them on the playground. I looked up and some younger boy was hitting one of them repeatedly in the back of the head. I told him to stop and that boys don’t hit girls and then took my daughter aside and asked why he was hitting her. She replied-because I was there. I told her she shouldn’t have allowed it and she should have punched him in the nose hard. No response. If anyone knows how I can impress upon my girls to respond aggressively when someone is aggressive towards them I would appreciate any advice. They are very pretty and we live outside the US so I want them to be able to defend themselves. I hope maybe when a bit older they will be more accommodating of self defense training but at this point just a hope.

 

[lifesavacation]

That actually happens VERY rarely anymore. Most legitimate fertility clinics implant so few embryos (even in women of advanced maternal age) that the incidence of higher order multiples (e.g., 3+) is extremely rare anymore. I don't think you know as much about "IVF" as you think you do. 20 years ago? Maybe. Today, only clinics who are "off the rails" end up with higher order multiples. Back in the day, my clinic called triplets plus "a failure" on their part. It's NOT good medicine. Today, the clinic I used WILL NOT implant more than 2 embryos, PERIOD, even in women of the age I was when I did IVF 20+ years ago.

It's not IVF that causes most order multiples, BTW. It's IUI, which is where the McCoy septuplets came from BTW....they had sex against doctor's orders and we all know how that ended.

Sorry, I get on my soapbox when I read crap like this.

In my second IVF cycle fifteen years ago, the dr recommended we transfer 6 embryos. That felt like too many for us so we transferred 4 on a 5-day transfer.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I have answered that about 10 times. Just read on of the previous posts.

Given the length of this thread, maybe you could consider synopsizing? Or linking back to your appropriate responses?

Women have recourse under the law for wage discrimination

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gender_equality_lawsuits

 

[LSUmiss]

I'm not going to debate that specific law, but the fact is that if men were capable of becoming pregnant then it would apply to them as well, equally.

I disagree. I think it would have been unheard of to ever have been a law if men would have been negatively affected.

 

[kaytieeldr]

When he carries the child for nine months, deals with the back pain and the stretch marks, the morning sickness, the sleeplessness, the extreme exhaustion, the hormones.

She only lasted 4ish months at my house. (again, a long story)

Okay, seems to be time for another mother-in-law thread

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

Okay, seems to be time for another mother-in-law thread

I'm in. I mean, mine isn't as bad as some I've read about (as I've dealt with mine for less than 12 months total out of the 27 years we've been together) but I'm willing to dish.

 

[quandrea]

But you know what? There is really no point in my answering you. No matter what I say, you will twist it, so carry on. You are welcome to your beliefs and I will continue mine.

This is the very definition of choice: “You are welcome to your beliefs and I will continue mine.” Your own words. I too consider myself pro-life. I would never, under any circumstances have terminated a pregnancy. However, I strongly believe in a person’s right to choose for herself. What others do is none of my business. Given that, the availability of safe, legal abortion is essential in an evolved society. You say a person has a right to his/her beliefs. You back that statement up by having legislation in place that allows people to make a choice that you might not agree with.