Gator grabs 2 year old at Grand Floridian?

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My concern is that a fence will just trick people into a false sense of security.
Out of curiosity- how so? A fence around the water would mean people couldn't/shouldn't go in. It'd make is slightly more difficult for gators to get out. An attack like this is very, very rare. An attack with a gator on land even more so.
 
My concern is that a fence will just trick people into a false sense of security.

It's not false. Your chances of being attacked when you are not on the water edge are ridiculously remote, especially in the day time. Not to mention my understanding is signs are still going up. This is just a physical way to keep people from venturing too close.
 
No, it's the opposite. Internal memos are "discoverable" and we enter them into evidence in court all the time. Exception of course would be a memo from their attorney, which would be privileged/excluded. It also needn't be in a memo or even in writing: employees and ex-employees can also be deposed. I take no position on whether any such information exists, but if it does, it will probably come out quite readily. Disney is too smart to destroy evidence.

As for the signage, we can all debate it until we pass out from lack of oxygen, but this type of situation has been heavily litigated and there is case law as to what kind of signage is "reasonable". That's not to say it's black and white. It never is. But I would venture to say that if Disney was aware of the presence of alligators, the lack of specific warning and the presence of nearby sandy beach with lounge chairs makes things difficult for them. Not impossible, just not great. Attractive nuisance will be an interesting theory to watch as it generally doesn't apply to lakes, even man-made ones, as long as they "appear" natural. I know, law is weird.

Terrible, tragic event - the poor family will never recover.
My point is if those memos/emails exist Disney knows about it already, today, and would not let it get to the point of being discoverable in a civil case. They would know that information is damning and would pay nearly anything to the family to make sure that's never public record. We would never see that information.

If there is a criminal investigation, however, that would change things.
 


I wonder how long until Universal does the same thing with the fences and signs? And all the other hotels and resorts with lakes and beaches.

I have been at other resorts in Orlando many times and have seen alligators in the water. This is Florida , they are everywhere, at all these other hotels and resorts as well. My mom commented on how one hotel had signs near the water warning of gators and how people constantly want to then see them, feed them. The fences will help keep people out, but I doubt signs would do anything but make people more curious.

I still cannot understand why anyone would let their child in dark, murky, nasty water at night. I would think the fact it says no swimming would at least make you pause to wonder why the sign is there.
 
I'm not sure how a fence is a solution to this problem. Isn't Disney overreacting? Wouldn't it have been better to wait a bit before acting? Or is Disney doing everything to show it is "in control" for summer?
 
I'm not sure how a fence is a solution to this problem. Isn't Disney overreacting? Wouldn't it have been better to wait a bit before acting? Or is Disney doing everything to show it is "in control" for summer?
I think you answered your own question :)
 


I'm not sure how a fence is a solution to this problem. Isn't Disney overreacting? Wouldn't it have been better to wait a bit before acting? Or is Disney doing everything to show it is "in control" for summer?

Keeps people away from the water. Takes out the "risk" that people won't read the signs.

I applaud Disney for it. It's more than I thought they should have to do. But I'm glad they are doing it.
 
It's not false. Your chances of being attacked when you are not on the water edge are ridiculously remote, especially in the day time. Not to mention my understanding is signs are still going up. This is just a physical way to keep people from venturing too close.
But the fence isn't actually a physical way to KEEP people from getting into the water. It's a deterrent. There is a difference. An extremely tall solid wall may actually be a way to physically stop someone (as long as they didn't find something to use to climb over it). I'm in no way suggesting a fence at all honestly but what Disney is doing is making a deterrent and hoping that people understand if a fence is there it's for a reason. That does not in any way actually stop someone from going over the fence.
 
Keeps people away from the water. Takes out the "risk" that people won't read the signs.

I applaud Disney for it. It's more than I thought they should have to do. But I'm glad they are doing it.

How would a fence prevent people from jumping over it? It's more looking like security theater at this point…
 
My point is if those memos/emails exist Disney knows about it already, today, and would not let it get to the point of being discoverable in a civil case. They would know that information is damning and would pay nearly anything to the family to make sure that's never public record. We would never see that information.

If there is a criminal investigation, however, that would change things.


It would depend on how much, if anything, was discussed. If there's an email chain leading back to them knowing about it, and then not doing anything....they've got a huge problem. If they've been notified and emails and memos are going out discussing procedural changes, discussions in the process of making changes, etc. not so damning. Again, there's notice of condition, etc. that is defensible.

I can say, an attorney (on either side) can, and will, take anything written out of context if they can to make their case. And why wouldn't they?

I had a claim where the insured had a $5000 Med Pay Limit. We reserved the claim at $0 (which is typical when there's no liability assumed during a preliminary review). As I attempted to settle the claim for the med pay amount, after determining there was no liability, I raised the reserve to $5000. Claimant refused to settle. When the attorney asked for the file for discovery, he tried pegging my email to the insured that I was raising the reserve, as an indication of us believing there was liability. I had to fly 2000 miles to get deposed to explain med pay to an attorney........
 
We have been to Disney World over 20 times and never gave any thought to alligators being on property until last September when we saw one IN Magic Kingdom right by the pathway near the Tom Sawyer Island dock (see the red dot on the map). It was 4 feet long, I would estimate. The CM we pointed it out to didn't seem to care in the slightest! That was our wake-up call. But prior to that I honestly never would have expected they were on property. Call us naive but the thought never crossed our minds.

View attachment 176020
I think we were there the same week, around early Nov. People were all gathering and looking once it was pointed out. Scary to me.
 
But the fence isn't actually a physical way to KEEP people from getting into the water. It's a deterrent. There is a difference. An extremely tall solid wall may actually be a way to physically stop someone (as long as they didn't find something to use to climb over it). I'm in no way suggesting a fence at all honestly but what Disney is doing is making a deterrent and hoping that people understand if a fence is there it's for a reason. That does not in any way actually stop someone from going over the fence.

It keeps people at a safe distance. I could see people not going in the water but still walking too close to the water without realizing it. Plus, people aren't jumping a barrier because they have a false sense of security behind the fence.
 
I think the fence and signs are a good deterrent for guests, especially after this very public tragic event and for all the common sense guests who are now better informed.
A bigger issue beyond the fence and proper signs for me are the guests that are feeding the alligators.
The gators will keep coming back whether there is a sign or fence, gators don't know how to read. These guests need to be held accountable when caught.
 
Out of curiosity- how so? A fence around the water would mean people couldn't/shouldn't go in. It'd make is slightly more difficult for gators to get out. An attack like this is very, very rare. An attack with a gator on land even more so.

A fence will keep (most) people out of the water on the beaches, but are they fencing all the entire way around the lake? or every lake on property? of course not. And a fence is not going to keep gators out anyway. So while the fences will deter people from wading in the water on the beaches, alligators will always be on property. And I would think people who do not know anything about alligators (as many people in the thread here have said they know nothing about them) will think the fences are keeping gators out, that Disney has come up with a way to eliminate any threat from them at all, which is just not possible.
 
It keeps people at a safe distance. I could see people not going in the water but still walking too close to the water without realizing it. Plus, people aren't jumping a barrier because they have a false sense of security behind the fence.
Well based on the photo provided from twitter..I would say the fence is still very close to the water. I'm not exactly sure I would call it a safe distance..and at least to me when I think of the false sense of security aspect I'm including people who lean up against the fence, let their kids swing on the fence (if it's made of rope), put their feet through the fence, whose children run through the barrier (if it's again made out of something like rope where a child could get through). It's a deterrent which should stop most people (especially in the daylight where it is more visible). At least to me people might think "well as long as I don't truly go over on the other side of the fence I'm safe..right..cuz that fence is there to keep me from being on the other side" but it's not to keep what is on the other side from getting to me. I guess that's my point. Hopefully it's coming across the right way so I apologize if it's not.
 
It keeps people at a safe distance. I could see people not going in the water but still walking too close to the water without realizing it. Plus, people aren't jumping a barrier because they have a false sense of security behind the fence.

Exactly. A fence isn't and I highly doubt would encourage people to 'go take a look'. I mean really, are people jumping fences at WDW? I would think that is the sort of behavior that would get you banned. Certainly people are not going to toss their toddlers over to go take a look. That said, there ARE some places on property that do have alligator warnings. SOG has a sign. There was a small gator over there years ago, someplace it was not supposed to be and they trapped it. I never saw it though.

I would think the fence is more an indication that they acknowledge they really can't predict what the local gator inhabitants 'might' do, possibly as a result of more recent feeding/interaction. They just can't take the risk.
 
To me it is a "trick." The fence is mostly for show. Disney is saying "look what we are doing to keep people safe!" when the likelihood of a gator attack is so small the reduction in risk the fence provides is negligible. But people will believe they are safe because of a fence, and of course, it's Disney.
 
But the fence isn't actually a physical way to KEEP people from getting into the water. It's a deterrent. There is a difference. An extremely tall solid wall may actually be a way to physically stop someone (as long as they didn't find something to use to climb over it). I'm in no way suggesting a fence at all honestly but what Disney is doing is making a deterrent and hoping that people understand if a fence is there it's for a reason. That does not in any way actually stop someone from going over the fence.

There's established case law that a fence is sufficient in most "attractive nuisance" cases. They aren't required (legally) to prevent entry.
 
There's established case law that a fence is sufficient in most "attractive nuisance" cases. They aren't required (legally) to prevent entry.
Oh I totally agree on that..but I wasn't even talking about legal requirements. I was talking about human beings being able to 100% obey. We've already established that signs don't stop every person and this fence isn't actually a physical barrier that is going to 100% stop people from going on the other side or as I mentioned putting their own body parts (like feet) over the barrier. That was really my whole point.
 
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