Help me understand Public Domain

[maospt2]

I just read how Winnie the Pooh is in public domain and this film having him and Pooh be villians in a horror style movie has been made. I am just saddened by this. Steam Boat Willie Mickey is also going into public domain in 2024. Is there nothing Disney could have done to keep them out of public domain? I am probably more upset by this than I should be, but I do not want to see beloved characters this way.

 

[BrianL]

There is a difference in Copyright and Trademarks. The Copyright is literally the right to copy something, and those rights do expire, theoretically well after the original creator has passed and no longer has an interest in profiting from the work. So, in the case of a Copyright expiration, people can either copy and publish the original work and sell at their own discretion, or even create derivative work based on that, for example use Winnie the Pooh in a movie like that. This however does not extend to Trademarks, which are well protected. Trademarks are things like logos and other such branding. A person will not be able to use the name in titles and such. Like, they could likely release a DVD called "Steamboat Willie - the Original Mickey Mouse cartoon," but they couldn't just call it "Mickey Mouse." They could not use the Disney logos and trade dress. In the case of Winnie the Pooh, remember that Disney does not own the copyright for the character - the A.A. Milne estate does. It will become no different than a fairy tale like Cinderella - anyone can make Cinderella, but they CAN'T make the Disney version or something too similar, (blonde hair, blue/silver dress, etc.) becuase they still own it (until that falls into public domain, but that one still has a while). In the Winnie the Pooh projects, they might not give him the red shirt, etc. as that is part of the Disney styled version.

Anyway, that may be oversimplified, but that's basically it. While I actually support copyright extensions for still in-use IP like Mickey Mouse, it is unlikely that it will actually impact Disney's profit in any significant way and derivative projects are likely to be few and far-between. Most people who support copyright expiration just want to archive and preserve all works of art and not be at the whim of a big corporation to do so, which I can see that too. Really, it's not that big of a deal either way.

 

[HopperFan]

I just read how Winnie the Pooh is in public domain and this film having him and Pooh be villians in a horror style movie has been made. I am just saddened by this. Steam Boat Willie Mickey is also going into public domain in 2024. Is there nothing Disney could have done to keep them out of public domain? I am probably more upset by this than I should be, but I do not want to see beloved characters this way.

And to add to above ~ Disney's Pooh and Milne's Pooh do not look the same. The biggest difference is that Disney's Pooh wears clothing, the red shirt.

RUMOR ... to add to the story of Disney's agreements with the Milne estate there is a story from inside Disney that the Pooh attractions (rides) must never close or they risk losing the ability to reopen or build them. Not sure what the time down is but was told the reason we never see a major renovation of Pooh is they can't close it that long, they must do all their painting, updates etc during the night or in very short spans of time. I would imagine that some work was done during COVID even if just mechanical because that would have been a gift of time. Not sure it's true but does anyone remember any time the ride was closed for any length?

 

[BrianL]

And to add to above ~ Disney's Pooh and Milne's Pooh do not look the same. The biggest difference is that Disney's Pooh wears clothing, the red shirt.

RUMOR ... to add to the story of Disney's agreements with the Milne estate there is a story from inside Disney that the Pooh attractions (rides) must never close or they risk losing the ability to reopen or build them. Not sure what the time down is but was told the reason we never see a major renovation of Pooh is they can't close it that long, they must do all their painting, updates etc during the night or in very short spans of time. I would imagine that some work was done during COVID even if just mechanical because that would have been a gift of time. Not sure it's true but does anyone remember any time the ride was closed for any length?

I feel like it was down for a short while when they installed the interactive play elements in the queue, but I don't remember. That might not have taken very long - a week or two maybe? They also may have re-routed the entrance, but I don't remember.

 

[GoingSince1990]

They could have lobbied Congress to pass a law extending copyright even longer, but the sight of lawmakers doing favors for deep-pocketed corporations is not popular these days. And in any case, it’s hard to argue that copyright should go on forever. Would it be a good thing if anyone putting on a Shakespeare play today had to pay royalties to Shakespeare’s great great great great great great grandchildren?

 

[BrianL]

They could have lobbied Congress to pass a law extending copyright even longer, but the sight of lawmakers doing favors for deep-pocketed corporations is not popular these days. And in any case, it’s hard to argue that copyright should go on forever. Would it be a good thing if anyone putting on a Shakespeare play today had to pay royalties to Shakespeare’s great great great great great great grandchildren?

Yeah, it's understandable that it shouldn't last forever, but in the case of corporate entities and still-viable and used IP, I cna see the other side of it. It's like, what did Shakespeares grandchildren do regarding the original work? Not much. But who is even the author in the case of Mickey Mouse. Walt? Ub Iwerks? The dozens of people who wrote and created Steamboat Willy or Plane Crazy? It's a little more of a grey area. I am less concerned about actual copyright as someone jsut duplicateing Steamboat Willy for release isn't too likely to be a huge profit suck, however in the case of projects that might denegrate the character, that could be seen as damaging to the brand. That would also be an unlikely scenario, but it's possible. At the end of the day though it's not a huge dent for Disney which is probably why they have decided to stop fighting it.

 

[GoingSince1990]

Yeah, it's understandable that it shouldn't last forever, but in the case of corporate entities and still-viable and used IP, I cna see the other side of it. It's like, what did Shakespeares grandchildren do regarding the original work? Not much. But who is even the author in the case of Mickey Mouse. Walt? Ub Iwerks? The dozens of people who wrote and created Steamboat Willy or Plane Crazy? It's a little more of a grey area. I am less concerned about actual copyright as someone jsut duplicateing Steamboat Willy for release isn't too likely to be a huge profit suck, however in the case of projects that might denegrate the character, that could be seen as damaging to the brand. That would also be an unlikely scenario, but it's possible. At the end of the day though it's not a huge dent for Disney which is probably why they have decided to stop fighting it.

Moreover, Disney took full advantage of free public domain works when it suited them, using characters that they did not create from old fairy tales while not having to pay a penny to the heirs of the brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Andersen.

 

[Micca]

Would it be a good thing if anyone putting on a Shakespeare play today had to pay royalties to Shakespeare’s great great great great great great grandchildren?

Blake Shakespeare would like a word.

 

[Scalemaster34]

The copyright on "Steamboat Willie," Mickey Mouse's debut, expires in 2024, but the trademark on the mouse is forever.

Disney has fought this... "Steamboat Willie" would have fallen into public domain way back in 1984, but Disney's spent millions lobbying congress to extend the Copyright Act back in the 1970's. Then again in the 1990 they had to do it again to protect not only Mickey but most the original fab five.

But in 2018 we hit the Freedom of the Internet Age, and any hopes at more extensions came to a close. So Disney put more effort into reinforcing Steamboat Willie/Mickey's trademarked image. Disney has over 19 trademarks on "Mickey Mouse".

 

[maospt2]

There is a difference in Copyright and Trademarks. The Copyright is literally the right to copy something, and those rights do expire, theoretically well after the original creator has passed and no longer has an interest in profiting from the work. So, in the case of a Copyright expiration, people can either copy and publish the original work and sell at their own discretion, or even create derivative work based on that, for example use Winnie the Pooh in a movie like that. This however does not extend to Trademarks, which are well protected. Trademarks are things like logos and other such branding. A person will not be able to use the name in titles and such. Like, they could likely release a DVD called "Steamboat Willie - the Original Mickey Mouse cartoon," but they couldn't just call it "Mickey Mouse." They could not use the Disney logos and trade dress. In the case of Winnie the Pooh, remember that Disney does not own the copyright for the character - the A.A. Milne estate does. It will become no different than a fairy tale like Cinderella - anyone can make Cinderella, but they CAN'T make the Disney version or something too similar, (blonde hair, blue/silver dress, etc.) becuase they still own it (until that falls into public domain, but that one still has a while). In the Winnie the Pooh projects, they might not give him the red shirt, etc. as that is part of the Disney styled version.

Anyway, that may be oversimplified, but that's basically it. While I actually support copyright extensions for still in-use IP like Mickey Mouse, it is unlikely that it will actually impact Disney's profit in any significant way and derivative projects are likely to be few and far-between. Most people who support copyright expiration just want to archive and preserve all works of art and not be at the whim of a big corporation to do so, which I can see that too. Really, it's not that big of a deal either way.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

 

[LiDa]

There is a difference in Copyright and Trademarks. The Copyright is literally the right to copy something, and those rights do expire, theoretically well after the original creator has passed and no longer has an interest in profiting from the work. So, in the case of a Copyright expiration, people can either copy and publish the original work and sell at their own discretion, or even create derivative work based on that, for example use Winnie the Pooh in a movie like that. This however does not extend to Trademarks, which are well protected. Trademarks are things like logos and other such branding. A person will not be able to use the name in titles and such. Like, they could likely release a DVD called "Steamboat Willie - the Original Mickey Mouse cartoon," but they couldn't just call it "Mickey Mouse." They could not use the Disney logos and trade dress. In the case of Winnie the Pooh, remember that Disney does not own the copyright for the character - the A.A. Milne estate does. It will become no different than a fairy tale like Cinderella - anyone can make Cinderella, but they CAN'T make the Disney version or something too similar, (blonde hair, blue/silver dress, etc.) becuase they still own it (until that falls into public domain, but that one still has a while). In the Winnie the Pooh projects, they might not give him the red shirt, etc. as that is part of the Disney styled version.

Anyway, that may be oversimplified, but that's basically it. While I actually support copyright extensions for still in-use IP like Mickey Mouse, it is unlikely that it will actually impact Disney's profit in any significant way and derivative projects are likely to be few and far-between. Most people who support copyright expiration just want to archive and preserve all works of art and not be at the whim of a big corporation to do so, which I can see that too. Really, it's not that big of a deal either way.

This is an excellent description of public domain. I would add that copyrights usually last for 100 years & have, on occasion, been extended. I would be shocked if Disney had not applied to get the copyrights extended, but they obviously lost.

Having your work enter the public domain means you lose all control. Think about Wagner & how you hear it all the time in films, sometimes quite satirically. You even hear it at most non-Jewish weddings (The Wedding March).

 

[GoingSince1990]

BTW it’s interesting that while Snow White is in the public domain, Disney owns its version of Snow White as well as the names of the dwarfs. So whenever you see a non-Disney production of Snow White the dwarfs will have names like Prof, Cheeky, Sniffly, Snoozy, and so on.

 

[CamillaF]

I am EXCITED for the copyrights to fall off and the trademarks later on. The world is ever changing and growing and in my opinion it's the playing with others ideas that make for the best of human ingenuity. As others above have mentioned Disney used a lot of others works to make their catalog. The world is better for it. The world will be better for people playing with the beloved characters that Disney has created. I know someone will make some bad things... but they wont live on...

 

[Her Dotness]

Would it be a good thing if anyone putting on a Shakespeare play today had to pay royalties to Shakespeare’s great great great great great great grandchildren?

Blake Shakespeare would like a word.

Wouldn't be a concern as the Stratfordian's line ended at his grandchildren.

If you subscribe as I do to the mounting evidence that William Shake-speare was the pen name of Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford, then Charles Beauclerk, Earl of Burford, a direct descendant, would have a claim.

 

[BrianL]

I am EXCITED for the copyrights to fall off and the trademarks later on. The world is ever changing and growing and in my opinion it's the playing with others ideas that make for the best of human ingenuity. As others above have mentioned Disney used a lot of others works to make their catalog. The world is better for it. The world will be better for people playing with the beloved characters that Disney has created. I know someone will make some bad things... but they wont live on...

The Trademarks will never expire as long as the entity using them continues to use them. That is what will mitigate a lot of potentially problematic productions as they will still have to be differentiated in that regard.

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

Blood and Honey looks disgusting. Sci-fi channel did a Banana Splits where they were all animatronic killers. Proof this society is failing.

 

[BrianL]

Blood and Honey looks disgusting. Sci-fi channel did a Banana Splits where they were all animatronic killers. Proof this society is failing.

Yeah, I definitely don't like it when they take a property for younger audiences and make it shocking and gory. IT's bad enough that like everything needs to be PG-13 now, even when based on a Saturday morning cartoon show.