Home Depot and Menards lawsuit

[justussix]

Apparently, historically, it USED TO be 2" x 4", but over time, the standards changed.

Actually, historically the "2x4" came from the original rough cut "green" lumber (freshly cut down), which then was dried and planed and ended up at something close to the 1.5" x 3.5" mark. In the early part of the 20th century, finished dimensional lumber standards were introduced which codified the "final" acceptable measure. Subsequent to that, process improvements led to the lumber mills being able to produce something closer to the finished standard as a rough cut, so now they don't cut 2 x 4 to start, but the finished product is nearly the same. I believe Gumbo mentioned 1 5/8ths x 3 5/8ths. That was the standard up until about the 1960's, if memory of my recent reading serves.

I started looking into this when I first read the article out of morbid curiosity. I always knew 1 1/2 x 3 1/2, having framed in basements and done a few other projects around the house over the years. I didn't know the history of how it got there.

Incidentally, hardwoods have a different standard and the actual measures are closer to the nominal measures. 1 3/4" x 3 3/4" for a hardwood 2 x 4.

 

[AppleDumpling]

Its not going to matter if it is called a 4x4 or a 3 1/2x 3 1/2, it will do the exact same job.
Anyone who knows anything about construction knows that when the boards are kiln dried there will be shrinkage.
The people suing over this probably have never built anything or plan to build anything on their own. They are just looking for a payday.

I agree and I think a lawsuit in this case is ridiculous. I just find it interesting that someone decided at some point to reduce the standard measurements by 1/2 inch in each direction. It's not like they're allowing for a variation; they are made consistently to a standard size, they've just lowered the size. No explanation for it really, other than getting more finished product from less raw material.

I get your way of thinking but with the examples you've used I feel like an overall would be needed for a ton of industries and it would be moreso regulations that would give you what you're looking for.

I'm not losing sleep over it. My only issue is that consumer products should be labeled truthfully and accurately. As long as the actual dimensions are printed on the product or on the shelf, I see no problem. If they want to be clearer, call it a "pre-milled 2 by 4" or maybe simply a stud.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

My understanding is that the wood is originally cut as 2" by 4" but that it shrinks down during the lumber production process. I get that. It's like a McDonald's quarter pounder, where 1/4 lb is the pre-cooked weight.

Now I would not be suing over it, but I do think it's somewhat deceptive. Apparently, historically, it USED TO be 2" x 4", but over time, the standards changed. Still seems the industry is shortchanging the consumer. To use another food analogy, think of ice cream, which used to be sold in a standard half gallon container, but is now less than a half gallon by several ounces (though I'm sure some people don't even realize it). To me, that's just a way for them to raise the price without raising the price, kwim?

So why can't the lumber industry start with a larger piece to account for the shrinkage and make the finished product's measurements equal to what it is called?

It would be easy. The simple answer is they don't want to. The boards are rough jointed or planed down to their finished dimension. In fact, they have it down so well they aren't even genuinely 2 by 4 before the process begins any more. The thing is everything such as insulation, windows, wall board, span tables and the like are listed for the current dimensions or a wall stud or a joist, etc etc. All those things that we have handy dandy quick tables for would have to change.

However, Turin and his clients dispute that the differences between nominal descriptions and actual dimensions are common knowledge.

“It’s difficult to say that for a reasonable consumer, when they walk into a store and they see a label that says four-by-four, that that’s simply — quote unquote — a trade name,” Turin said in an interview.

Maybe those people should stay away from construction material then and let the professionals handle it.

I used to think that after the rash of home depot wannabe jobs I've seen from people that weren't professionals. But given the incorrect work and shoddy construction I've seen from all too many "professionals" I'm not so sure about that any more.

Well it's not as if I really truly honestly thought about finished product vs initial cut product. However that being said we have built several things in our house (our master closet shelving system, a large desk, a mail sorter, a note pad/key holder, a 9 cube storage unit) with more things we want to build. My husband generally has taken it upon his engineering self to figure out all the dimensions and I know for sure he's always thought about what the finished product dimensions would be.

I agree that I think people are looking nowadays for reasons to find fault in advertising or what information stores/companiest provide and to me rarely are the faults people find in my opinion actual false advertisements. In this case it's an industry standard thing going on. I'm really not certain why all places that sell lumber would need to list their actual sizes for every single one of their products in order to not confuse the consumer. To me this is one of those it's "on the consumer's responsibility".

I don't think it too much to ask of the Home Depot that if one is selling a 2 by 4 that the actual finished dimensions be on the signage. It is not hard in the least to add (actual dimensions 1 1/2 by 3 1/2) to the signage.
I don't think it hard to distinguish between an 8 foot length and a pre cut 8 foot stud length (92 5/8) on the signage either. If you're going to market to consumers like Home Depot, Lowes, or Menards do, then that's part of it. They should assume their customers don't know industry jargon and do their signage accordingly.

 

[RedAngie]

Well, I just bought my kids a bag of Lays chips. The bag claims it contains 9oz of chips. Well, I took out each and ever chip and measured it, and it was only 8.79oz.

I plan to retire on the settlement money I will be getting, and my children will never have to work. Their emotional distress when they realized they were robbed will scar them forever.

You obviously neglected to scrape the dust and crumbs clinging to the bag's interior. No doubt they weigh more than .21 of an ounce.

 

[Klayfish]

You obviously neglected to scrape the dust and crumbs clinging to the bag's interior. No doubt they weigh more than .21 of an ounce.

Nope, I licked the bag clean.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don't think it too much to ask of the Home Depot that if one is selling a 2 by 4 that the actual finished dimensions be on the signage. It is not hard in the least to add (actual dimensions 1 1/2 by 3 1/2) to the signage.
I don't think it hard to distinguish between an 8 foot length and a pre cut 8 foot stud length (92 5/8) on the signage either. If you're going to market to consumers like Home Depot, Lowes, or Menards do, then that's part of it. They should assume their customers don't know industry jargon and do their signage accordingly.

Well at the very least Home Depot has their exact measurements on the website-haven't checked out Lowes or Menards though.

And like I mentioned earlier there would need to be an overhaul of tons of industries. We could probably make a case for soooooooo many things that patrons of all sorts of stores or entitities in our everyday life should know the ins and outs of the jargon and the signs should show all sorts of information.

 

[Hikergirl]

I used to think that after the rash of home depot wannabe jobs I've seen from people that weren't professionals. But given the incorrect work and shoddy construction I've seen from all too many "professionals" I'm not so sure about that any more.

LOL, very true. My house is a prime example of that. Luckily dh worked his way through college doing construction so he is able to fix the things that were "overlooked" when the house was built.

 

[MommyinHonduras]

I can tell you building things with plans from the US are really hard when here in Honduras a 2x4 is actually 2" x 4"