Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

davish562

Davis
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
With all the expansions Universal is doing to their parks right now, Disney has done barely anything to the parks. Disney's construction projects take longer than most government projects! And that's saying something, not only does it take Disney a decade to build a land, they are also not building enough new, interesting, well thought attractions. Adding another screen to soarin' isn't a new attraction, it's for capacity and should of been there in the first place! I know Disney is about to announce a rebranding mega project of DHS, but Universal is going to react to that in a very big way, that's a given, if Disney does not have this done by 2019, they're attendance will be going over to Universal, there will be a tipping point when people ask themselves, "why should I spend a lot more money at Disney, when I can save money and going to a park that is actually investing enough into it!" Mr. Iger, ten years ago when admission was half the cost you were putting more rides into the parks, and know that admission is $100 you're putting less attractions in the parks, that makes zero sense, all I'm saying is that Disney better get there act back together, and don't have construction at snail pace, that's not good.
 
In a sense I think you're right but at the same time Disney is Disney. People from around the world will always go.

I do think Disney will have DHS completed by 2021 in time for their 50th anniversary but I agree that if it takes that long, Universal will capitalize. I think some HS attractions need to start opening by Spring 2018.
 
Honestly, the only thing that interests me at Universal is The Wizarding World of Harry Potter. I was there in 2011 and am planning on going back this March but outside of Harry Potter Universal is, "eh" to me. I do agree that Disney seems to take forever with construction but is Universal really that much cheaper? I've never compared vacation packages but single park one day admission is $102 which is only $3 cheaper than one day at MK.
 
Nope sorry. People have been saying this for 6+ years now. While Disney's profits haven't risen as fast as Universal's thanks to Harry Potter, they've risen. (And in fact if you look at it in a $ vs $ manner, Disney's increases are slightly ahead of Universal. I do think if they continue to neglect the parks, they could run into trouble, but it sounds like they are looking to rectify this in the next 5 years.

Even then, I recently had a talk with someone who spent their vacation at Universal, and their comment was "they still don't do it as well as Disney".

Disney's big problem will be when the economy tanks again. They've gotten expensive but the free spending of the American people have gone with it. When there's a downturn they'll be hit hard. (But Universal will be too.)
 


In a sense I think you're right but at the same time Disney is Disney. People from around the world will always go.

I do think Disney will have DHS completed by 2021 in time for their 50th anniversary but I agree that if it takes that long, Universal will capitalize. I think some HS attractions need to start opening by Spring 2018.
Agreed, Disney needs to open this massive expansion before Universal. I'm excited to see what they have in store.
 
Honestly, the only thing that interests me at Universal is The Wizarding World of Harry Potter. I was there in 2011 and am planning on going back this March but outside of Harry Potter Universal is, "eh" to me. I do agree that Disney seems to take forever with construction but is Universal really that much cheaper? I've never compared vacation packages but single park one day admission is $102 which is only $3 cheaper than one day at MK.
One day tickets are around the same, but it gets a lot cheaper when you add one or two more days.
 
They are doing what Disney did in the 90's. Disney could build faster if they wanted to. Universal is trying to create competition and that's why they are spending so much and building so fast. Universal's expansion will slow down eventually just like WDW's has, mark my words.
 
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My off-the-cuff reaction is, Disney isn't scr_wed, not yet anyways. I'm basing this on my own family's (DW and 3 DDs) impressions from touring all of the big Orlando area theme parks.

"We prefer Disney" is what they told me. It's nothing against the quality of the non-Disney parks. They are super-nice, have great theming and a lot of great rides and shows.

As near as I can follow the family's thought process, the difference is pixie dust. Which I define as partly the princess angle but mostly it's a very nice, warm ambiance that comes from the happiness and comedy of the movies and characters which is translated into theme park architecture and landscaping, ambient music, character interaction, shows and rides.

There are fair number of attractions at the Universal parks that leave you feeling you've been assaulted. The shows are really noisy. I wanted to see the Blues Brothers show but I and DF could only take a couple of songs before we wanted to move away somewhere quieter. The Sindbad show felt like I was being beat up with flashes and explosive "bangs". I can never ride the Hulk coaster or Dragon Challenge without afterwards feeling a bit woozy and sometimes with a headache from getting the sun in my eyes during an inversion. Even the Simpsons ride is a bit too much for me, though DKs' inner ears don't mind it. They have lots of family-level rides and shows as well, but the noisy ones set the tone.

This can and will change. Everything that Universal is adding lately seems to be toned down to the point where people under 15 and over 35 can actually enjoy it. Busch Gardens' recent coasters all seem to be aimed at "thrills not spills" i.e. speed and air time but not inversions and high Gs. Seaworld's next coaster looks like it has no inversions at all. If Universal or Dreamworks ever has a hit princess movie, watch out.

But all of this takes time. As much as I hate Disney's glacial slowness at adding and updating attractions, I think that the pixie dust is going to save them. At least for the 6 years or whatever time they're planning to fix DHS and Epcot.

If Universal, SeaWorld and Busch really spend a lot of money though and continue to crank out great new attractions and lands on the 1 to 2 year time frame, it's going to be a very near thing. WDW's 50th may be a very huge event with record crowds, but their market share may be eroded even further by then. Disney won't be scr_wed - they'll still be making a ton of money - but they might be a lot less dominant.
 
I think it's a good thing for Disney that Universal is doing so much. The more there is to do in the area, the more people will come to experience everything. It makes it a lot easier for me to plan an expensive vacation knowing that we can go to 4 Disney parks, 2 Universal parks and other fun things such as Seaworld. If the only good thing there was Disney, I would probably only go once and done.

Disney is an icon. They'd have to really let things go before it would keep visitors from making it a part of their vacation.
 
One day tickets are around the same, but it gets a lot cheaper when you add one or two more days.
Unfortunately, it's my understanding that you almost need the universal equivalent of the Park Hopper where in Disney, I do not. Now that being said, I have never been to Universal and I do want to go, but for my family of 4 to shell out over $1K for 2 days on a park(s) we may not even like, is hard to swallow.

I think universal (and Disney alike) should offer a REALLY reduced price for "First Timers" to "Hook" them. If it's really a good park, then we will be back. If not, well they will know that too. If I could take my family of 4 to explore Universal for, let's say $500 for a couple of days (able to go between parks) as a "Primer" to see if it's something we want in the future, then I might be tempted.
 
Saw this morning some rumored budget numbers between now and 2021 (50th anniversary): $2.8 billion for DHS; $300-350 million for Epcot; and another $300-350 million for MK. Note the absence of DAK, which we know is getting new things between now and then. If the DHS numbers are even remotely close to that, then this argument (which has certainly frustrated all Disney World fans over the last few years after Potter arrived) is hopefully finally cut off. No question that Uni will have new attractions up and running faster than Disney, but I guess we can at least hope that the 50th anniversary makes for a logical (and realistic) outside deadline for a new and improved WDW as a whole. At this point, that's only six years, so while it seems a long way off, it's not really that far out. Sad that Epcot can't get a bigger piece of that overall budget.
 
I admit that we are total Universal nuts here. We are beyond thrilled that Universal is doing so much and doing it right.

However Disney is still packing them in and will probably continue to do so for a very long time at least. An economic downturn affecting them makes sense but that would affect everyone. Disney is fun in a more nostalgic way while Universal provides more excitement. We see it as a win-win for tourists.
 
Disney has done as close to "nothing" as humanly possible over the past decade as it relates to improving its overall offering. Don't take this to read that it's a "bad" offering - the parks as they stood 15 years ago were fantastic. The problem is, by and large, they've changed/evolved very little since. The biggest notables over the past decade have been the Billion dollar FP+ system (which in my opinion, is a step back from the prior system) and the additional 5,000 SF of concrete in MK known as New Fantasyland with a handful of mediocre attractions. Oh, and don't forget the ~70 - 100% price increases in tickets and room rates that came along with it. Despite this, people continue to flock to MCO in droves with fistfuls of dollars (I happen to be one of them).

Disney is far from "screwed". Rather, I feel that we as consumers are, as we've proven to management that time and time again, we are always going to be there regardless of the product that is put forward. We have rewarded their mediocre performance with steady increases in both sales and profitability, lining the executive management teams' pockets all along the way. Until that changes, neither will the product that they put forward.

Aside from NFL, which consists of 2 new rides, MK is essentially the same park today as it was 15 years ago. EPCOT (specifically FW) is in decay and has actually regressed over that period, with the best/only thing in the pipeline being Maelstrom 2.0. Studios is a shell with no definitive plans. AK is getting Avatar (sometime before 2019?), but it sounds like we are getting heavy theming with a boat ride and one (debatable) E-ticket. And of course, who could forget the Great Corporate Mall of Lake Buena Vista?

My beef with all of the above is not with what has or is in the process of being added (I really hope and pray that many of these things exceed my expectations and turn out to be good additions). Rather, my beef is with what could have been added. Management's current, decade-long philosophy has been to maximize returns with as little investment as possible (prototypical Wall Street). My belief is that returns would actually be higher if management were willing to pony up a bit more capital upfront and really turn Imagineering loose to create something really, truly special. This type of philosophy is what defined Disney in the 70's, 80's and 90's and made it into the juggernaut that it is today. A prime example in the making is only a few miles up I4 (aka Potterworld). Whether you're talking about a lemonade stand in the front yard, a small business or Disney - you always, always get out of your business what you put into it. This is where I feel that Disney has done nothing but "swing and miss" in recent years.

The fact that Disney Parks still continue to perform well from a sales and EBITDA standpoint is not so much a testament to great management in recent years, but rather, a testament to how special of a place was built in 1971 and developed through the 1980's and early 1990's. I return to Disney primarily for the things that were built during that time period, not for anything that has been built/added within the past ~15 years under the current management philosophy.
 
Let's see, since 2010:

New Fantasy Land
Avatar Land
Disney Springs
Frozen ride (yeah yeah..)
Additional capacity to TSM and Soarin (cutting our wait times in half does matter)
Grand Floridian and Polynesian Vacation Club options

And now in a month they'll (almost assuredly) announce a huge expansion at DHS.

I just don't get the idea Disney is just resting on its laurels. Doesn't match reality. It seems some would think they need to rebuild the 4 parks every couple years or else they're doing nothing. That's not how it works.
 
When we decided to do this last minute summer trip we took the plunge and booked Universal. HP was the reason. We got 14 day unlimited park tickets for around 1,100 for the whole family. This is quite a bit less than the cost of Disney. So I don't know if Disney is screwed, but I do think more and more are choosing to got to Universal instead and I think if Disney doesn't step up their game that will continue to happen. Maybe I'll post again when we get back in a few weeks and compare :)
 
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Let's see, since 2010:

New Fantasy Land
Avatar Land
Disney Springs
Frozen ride (yeah yeah..)
Additional capacity to TSM and Soarin (cutting our wait times in half does matter)
Grand Floridian and Polynesian Vacation Club options

And now in a month they'll (almost assuredly) announce a huge expansion at DHS.

I just don't get the idea Disney is just resting on its laurels. Doesn't match reality. It seems some would think they need to rebuild the 4 parks every couple years or else they're doing nothing. That's not how it works.

Most of the park related things you've mentioned are still not done. Just because they stuck a shovel into the ground for Avatar doesn't mean they've accomplished much. They're slower than my Grandma at a flea market. They are only quick at making the resorts because time is money. The faster they get bums in the rooms the better. They can't stretch those out the way they do their rides and refurbs.

Universal has created whole sections of its parks and new rides. While Avatar doesn't even have a park bench in its section.
 
My comments in RED.

Let's see, since 2010:

New Fantasy Land Lots of concrete, little substance
Avatar Land Announced, but opening when? And what are we getting - heavy theming, a boat ride and one debatable E-ticket attraction. Hardly worth the 5 years of hype and strung-out construction period.
Disney Springs AKA Corporate Mall of America. I can't wait to see the Apple Store and 4 additional Sunglass Huts
Frozen ride (yeah yeah..) Not much really even needs to be said about Maelstrom 2.0 that hasn't already been covered a dozen times in this very forum...
Additional capacity to TSM and Soarin (cutting our wait times in half does matter) Adding capacity to the only ride worthy attractions at either of these two parks, rather than creating new attractions that people actually want to ride... hence my comment about wishing they'd actually spend money and turn Imagineering loose.
Grand Floridian and Polynesian Vacation Club options For the handful of visitors that can actually afford to purchase at either of these two DVC locations. Great for them, not so much the remaining ~98% of visitors.
And now in a month they'll (almost assuredly) announce a huge expansion at DHS. Opening when... 2025, just in time for movie #14???

I just don't get the idea Disney is just resting on its laurels. Doesn't match reality.

Then what do you call the period between ~2000 and 2015, in which the only "substantial" addition throughout any of the parks over this 15-year period was NFL (which is arguably mediocre at best, considering that ALL OF EPCOT was built in less time...)? Makes the ~100% plus price increases over that time period a little hard to swallow if you ask me...
 
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I think Disney will always be better than Universal, no matter what they do. Classic rides like Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean could never be duplicated by Universal. They don't know how to make slow moving family rides or animatronic characters. Most of their rides just shake you around.
 
Most of the park related things you've mentioned are still not done. Just because they stuck a shovel into the ground for Avatar doesn't mean they've accomplished much. They're slower than my Grandma at a flea market. They are only quick at making the resorts because time is money. The faster they get bums in the rooms the better. They can't stretch those out the way they do their rides and refurbs.

Universal has created whole sections of its parks and new rides. While Avatar doesn't even have a park bench in its section.

Why shouldn't they be cost-effective rather then throw away money to speed it up? IMO, you can't view Disney World parks individually, because very few people come through Disney World and JUST visit Animal Kingdom, for example. Disney World is for longer-term vacationers. That's why tickets get cheaper by the length of stay. So is DHS an all-day park right now? No. Has AK been one? Nope. But when you're done with half a day at one of those, guess what you can do? Go to Downtown Disney for shopping, restaurants, bowling, Cirque, boat rides, balloon ride, etc. Go to one of the 2 great water parks. Go play mini golf. Go rent a boat. Go on a fishing expedition. Take a tour. Etc. Etc. Etc.

They don't have to spend extra to build things quickly, because you only do that when you're behind and desperate. They're not behind, and they aren't even in danger of being behind. They're 8 steps ahead of the competition, and will continue to be by doing the things they've been doing and continue to do. Incremental changes are all that's needed when WDW is already an A+++. You don't have to overhaul that regularly (though DHS finally needs one, and its coming).
 
My comments in RED.





Then what do you call the period between ~2000 and 2015, in which the only "substantial" addition throughout any of the parks over this 15-year period was NFL (which is arguably mediocre at best, considering that ALL OF EPCOT was built in less time...)? Makes the ~100% plus price increases over that time pretty hard to swallow if you ask me...

NFL is very solid IMO. A new kids coaster, a new boat ride, great new theming and a great restaurant. If that's not enough, then expectations are way out of control.
 

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