Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

This is borderline ridiculous...to be honest
These are real things...if you want to reject them as a skeptic...just reject them. Enough with the sophomoric "show me proof" nonsense. They are a business that holds secrets...there's no true "proof" of anything because they want it that way. Including what you claim to be sure of...

What's ridiculous is that you're insisting your feelings and emotions prevail over facts. A great example of truthiness:

truth·i·ness - the quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.

- - -

Disney has always chased profits -- before, during & after Eiser.

-- WDW has never been a cheap place to visit; the prices of its deluxe properties rivaled those of top, 5* hotels around the country, even in the 1970s.
-- Disney never even offered a toll-free reservations number to the public and for years hours were limited to business hours, meaning the average person had to spend a few bucks per call to inquire about & book rooms (in the '80s and '90s).
-- As mentioned several times, cost is discussed extensively in travel guides printed in the 1980s and 1990s (including books like the Unofficial Guide and features stores in publicans like the New York Times).
-- Food & beverage have historically been the biggest rip-off. Disney began charging $2 for a bottle of soda & water in the mid-1990s -- an era in which they could be bought for less than half that at the local drugstore.
-- In the early 1990s, Disney began offering reservations for its Millennium celebration, offering guests the opportunity to lock in their rate with a refundable deposit. By the late 1990s, Disney started notifying guests who booked such rooms that 'opps - we undervalued the market 10 years ago, therefore that guaranteed rate you reserved at the Dixie Landings for $109/night is now $500/night.' Yes, the prices were that high, which undoubtedly played into the mass cancellations that resulted in cheap rooms being dumped onto the market in the latter half of 1999 (like our $189/night AP discounted room at the Grand Floridian).
-- Disney slashed the budgets for the Disneyland expansion as well as the Animal Kingdom Park. The latter performed terribly during guest previews (resort guests) but Disney didn't care.
-- In 2000, Disney entered an extreme cost cutting mode.

we could go on and on...

Reality is that by the early 2000s, WDW had overexpanded and its latest projects (West Side, Animal Kingdom, etc.) had flopped and failed to deliver the attendance gains that had been anticipated. Coupled with a softening economy (that free-fell after 9-11 and again during the Great Recession), guests received some incredible, heavily discounted deals.

WDW has since embarked on controlled expansion (both hotels & within the parks) since. Of course, some people like you want to pretend that WDW actually cared more about its guests than profits at one point... to each their own. You can mock me all you'd like, but I certainly don't live in Fantasyland -- and at the very least, can back my assertions with actual fact, unlike you.
 
What's ridiculous is that you're insisting your feelings and emotions prevail over facts. A great example of truthiness:

truth·i·ness - the quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.

- - -

Disney has always chased profits -- before, during & after Eiser.

-- WDW has never been a cheap place to visit; the prices of its deluxe properties rivaled those of top, 5* hotels around the country, even in the 1970s.
-- Disney never even offered a toll-free reservations number to the public and for years hours were limited to business hours, meaning the average person had to spend a few bucks per call to inquire about & book rooms (in the '80s and '90s).
-- As mentioned several times, cost is discussed extensively in travel guides printed in the 1980s and 1990s (including books like the Unofficial Guide and features stores in publicans like the New York Times).
-- Food & beverage have historically been the biggest rip-off. Disney began charging $2 for a bottle of soda & water in the mid-1990s -- an era in which they could be bought for less than half that at the local drugstore.
-- In the early 1990s, Disney began offering reservations for its Millennium celebration, offering guests the opportunity to lock in their rate with a refundable deposit. By the late 1990s, Disney started notifying guests who booked such rooms that 'opps - we undervalued the market 10 years ago, therefore that guaranteed rate you reserved at the Dixie Landings for $109/night is now $500/night.' Yes, the prices were that high, which undoubtedly played into the mass cancellations that resulted in cheap rooms being dumped onto the market in the latter half of 1999 (like our $189/night AP discounted room at the Grand Floridian).
-- Disney slashed the budgets for the Disneyland expansion as well as the Animal Kingdom Park. The latter performed terribly during guest previews (resort guests) but Disney didn't care.
-- In 2000, Disney entered an extreme cost cutting mode.

we could go on and on...

Reality is that by the early 2000s, WDW had overexpanded and its latest projects (West Side, Animal Kingdom, etc.) had flopped and failed to deliver the attendance gains that had been anticipated. Coupled with a softening economy (that free-fell after 9-11 and again during the Great Recession), guests received some incredible, heavily discounted deals.

WDW has since embarked on controlled expansion (both hotels & within the parks) since. Of course, some people like you want to pretend that WDW actually cared more about its guests than profits at one point... to each their own. You can mock me all you'd like, but I certainly don't live in Fantasyland -- and at the very least, can back my assertions with actual fact, unlike you.

You're actually mostly agree with me.

Here's where you don't: there's no difference in Disney management now than there ever has been.

You can believe that...I and most around here do not. You're the outlier.

I believe I'm right...you believe you are.

There is no way to make a solid enough case. It's all quips, grabs and anecdotal evidence. Can't be completely quantified.

I think you go to far...but it's obvious you won't budge and I'm not. I can't convict Disney in court here...but you're not gonna either.

We can just pick apart the details. I bet we agree a lot.
 
I think Disney will always be better than Universal, no matter what they do. Classic rides like Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean could never be duplicated by Universal. They don't know how to make slow moving family rides or animatronic characters. Most of their rides just shake you around.
AMEN - AGREE 100%. Although I would love to go see Harry Potter once.
 
AMEN - AGREE 100%. Although I would love to go see Harry Potter once.

I think Disney is better, but IMO, currently, there is no place with better themeing than Diagon Alley; when combined with the other HP attractions at Universal, it's spectacular. If we look at HP themeing as an island onto itself - Disney is lagging behind ... and I love love love Disney!

Even if you're not an HP fan, it's really worth checking out.
 


AMEN - AGREE 100%. Although I would love to go see Harry Potter once.

You should. We went once shortly after Hogsmeade opened and again this spring to do Diagon Alley. They really are wonderful - particularly Diagon Alley. Like many fans, I was disappointed when Disney didn't get the rights to HP, but Universal did have a stronger incentive to do it right, I think. Pains me to say it, but it probably wouldn't have been done so well at Disney.
 
What's ridiculous is that you're insisting your feelings and emotions prevail over facts. A great example of truthiness:

truth·i·ness - the quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.

- - -

Disney has always chased profits -- before, during & after Eiser.

-- WDW has never been a cheap place to visit; the prices of its deluxe properties rivaled those of top, 5* hotels around the country, even in the 1970s.
-- Disney never even offered a toll-free reservations number to the public and for years hours were limited to business hours, meaning the average person had to spend a few bucks per call to inquire about & book rooms (in the '80s and '90s).
-- As mentioned several times, cost is discussed extensively in travel guides printed in the 1980s and 1990s (including books like the Unofficial Guide and features stores in publicans like the New York Times).
-- Food & beverage have historically been the biggest rip-off. Disney began charging $2 for a bottle of soda & water in the mid-1990s -- an era in which they could be bought for less than half that at the local drugstore.
-- In the early 1990s, Disney began offering reservations for its Millennium celebration, offering guests the opportunity to lock in their rate with a refundable deposit. By the late 1990s, Disney started notifying guests who booked such rooms that 'opps - we undervalued the market 10 years ago, therefore that guaranteed rate you reserved at the Dixie Landings for $109/night is now $500/night.' Yes, the prices were that high, which undoubtedly played into the mass cancellations that resulted in cheap rooms being dumped onto the market in the latter half of 1999 (like our $189/night AP discounted room at the Grand Floridian).
-- Disney slashed the budgets for the Disneyland expansion as well as the Animal Kingdom Park. The latter performed terribly during guest previews (resort guests) but Disney didn't care.
-- In 2000, Disney entered an extreme cost cutting mode.

we could go on and on...

Reality is that by the early 2000s, WDW had overexpanded and its latest projects (West Side, Animal Kingdom, etc.) had flopped and failed to deliver the attendance gains that had been anticipated. Coupled with a softening economy (that free-fell after 9-11 and again during the Great Recession), guests received some incredible, heavily discounted deals.

WDW has since embarked on controlled expansion (both hotels & within the parks) since. Of course, some people like you want to pretend that WDW actually cared more about its guests than profits at one point... to each their own. You can mock me all you'd like, but I certainly don't live in Fantasyland -- and at the very least, can back my assertions with actual fact, unlike you.

Exactly this. Some memories are short for sure.

And the new expansions started during peak attendance levels.

I also doubt the new expansions would be nearly as immersive as they appear they will be, if they had kept the less popular attractions open that have been closing AND had thrown in some attractions along the way the least decade.

Well worth the wait it appears IMO, especially when its far better now than it's ever been anyway.
 
We stayed at Port Orleans multiple times during the Millenium celebration and never paid $500 a night. We never even paid close to $200 so I'd hate to be the sucker that fell for that one.

As for the Managment of the company I'd completely disagree that they have been the same over the years. The Eisner/Wells team may well have saved the company from being sold for parts and they really were responsible for most of the growth that they are milking today. The level of innovation and detail they supported was unreal compared to what we are seeing now in the US. Sure they had bombs but they didn't have the periods of stagnation that we've seen since Wells passed.
 


Keep in mind that a generation is coming to whom Harry Potter is just a ride of some kind. Universal put a huge stake in it but there are more people everyday that don't get or follow the franchise.

A wizard or princesses? Universal will have to work harder and harder to keep up IMHO.

I don't think Harry Potter is going away. People who read the books and loved them when they first came out will share them with their kids. And then they'll watch the movies together. My DD is 10 and she gets way more excited about Harry Potter than she does about any Disney princesses.

There are at least two more movies coming out that involve the Harry Potter universe.
 
We stayed at Port Orleans multiple times during the Millenium celebration and never paid $500 a night. We never even paid close to $200 so I'd hate to be the sucker that fell for that one.

As for the Managment of the company I'd completely disagree that they have been the same over the years. The Eisner/Wells team may well have saved the company from being sold for parts and they really were responsible for most of the growth that they are milking today. The level of innovation and detail they supported was unreal compared to what we are seeing now in the US. Sure they had bombs but they didn't have the periods of stagnation that we've seen since Wells passed.

Nobody payed that...since I saw the prices back then (all
Of them...no secrets) I'll back you up...and trust my own grey matter on this...

But stop stating the truth here - my advice - you're gonna get nit-picked apart by the delusional...it's a "thing"
These days ;)
 
I don't think Harry Potter is going away. People who read the books and loved them when they first came out will share them with their kids. And then they'll watch the movies together. My DD is 10 and she gets way more excited about Harry Potter than she does about any Disney princesses.

There are at least two more movies coming out that involve the Harry Potter universe.


I agree. The books and movies aren't going anywhere. More kids will pick them up all the time. I think the franchise will continue to have a huge following. It will only grow as those who grew up with HP now enter adulthood and have kids of their own.
 
I agree. The books and movies aren't going anywhere. More kids will pick them up all the time. I think the franchise will continue to have a huge following. It will only grow as those who grew up with HP now enter adulthood and have kids of their own.

Agree, it will only get bigger, at least for while it sounds, excellent product IMO.

Getting old over there for us already, but have been a lot, doesn't have the emotional connection a lot of Disney does for us anyway.
 
I don't think Harry Potter is going away. People who read the books and loved them when they first came out will share them with their kids. And then they'll watch the movies together. My DD is 10 and she gets way more excited about Harry Potter than she does about any Disney princesses.

There are at least two more movies coming out that involve the Harry Potter universe.

I agree. There is a whole generation who grew up with Harry. Just like there is a whole generation who grew up with Star Wars. Each one passes along their love to their children. Universal was able to tap into the same sentimental factor that Disney has capitalized on.
 
I agree. There is a whole generation who grew up with Harry. Just like there is a whole generation who grew up with Star Wars. Each one passes along their love to their children. Universal was able to tap into the same sentimental factor that Disney has capitalized on.

That's also why I think Disney needs to get Star Wars land right. They cannot cheap out on it. Toy Storyland will not pull in anybody who wasn't already thinking about going to WDW. Star Wars land will, but they will have high expectations.
 
We stayed at Port Orleans multiple times during the Millenium celebration and never paid $500 a night. We never even paid close to $200 so I'd hate to be the sucker that fell for that one.

As for the Managment of the company I'd completely disagree that they have been the same over the years. The Eisner/Wells team may well have saved the company from being sold for parts and they really were responsible for most of the growth that they are milking today. The level of innovation and detail they supported was unreal compared to what we are seeing now in the US. Sure they had bombs but they didn't have the periods of stagnation that we've seen since Wells passed.

I'm not talking about the "Millennium Celebration", but rather the Holiday period surrounding 12/31/99.

Disney started taking reservations for the Holiday period surrounding the Millennium beginning in 1991. Guests were offered the opportunity to guarantee their low rate in exchange for a refundable deposit; no doubt WDW saw this as a cheap marking ploy (e.g. for nearly a decade, we told our friends & family we were going to WDW During the Millennium). In the late 1990s, Disney sent us a letter that said our deposit had guaranteed us a room but that the rate had not been previously set. The new rate was close to $500 for the week surrounding the Millennium, and then rack rates for the other dates. My parents were prepared to fight this since they had the original reservation, which mentioned the guaranteed rate. Alas, they never had to since mass cancellations -- due to the Y2K scare and not surged pricing (wink, wink) -- enabled them to get a room at the GF for not much more than the rate quoted at the DL.

Nobody payed that...since I saw the prices back then (all
Of them...no secrets) I'll back you up...and trust my own grey matter on this...

But stop stating the truth here - my advice - you're gonna get nit-picked apart by the delusional...it's a "thing"
These days ;)

I find it fascinating that the moderators continue to ignore your cheap shots toward me.

Still waiting for some facts!!!
 
I find it fascinating that the moderators continue to ignore your cheap shots toward me.

Still waiting for some facts!!!
I have yet to see a direct personal attack. I've said this before though if you have a problem the report button is there for a reason.
 
Florida statutes limit the maximum rate that you can charge for lodging and it is required to displayed in the hotel. The idea is to prevent price gouging ...a very important thing to consider in a place with so much tropical activity...

In 2001...after the dates you stated...the Maximum rate by law for a standard room at a moderate (they are all standard) was $225 per night...

$500 on 1999 was close to the Christmas Eve rate for the grand Floridian at the time...as opposed to the maximum by law at port Orleans...

...don't I have a knack for memory details?

Yeah...I know...you don't believe it...
The free market wouldn't allow it.

They must not have that Econ book in Tallahassee?

Keep digging...
 
That's also why I think Disney needs to get Star Wars land right. They cannot cheap out on it. Toy Storyland will not pull in anybody who wasn't already thinking about going to WDW. Star Wars land will, but they will have high expectations.

Very skeptical about what they're willing to invest in the Star Wars land...

Especially with the amount of money being poured into the black hole of animal kingdom right now...

I think they are likely to cut corners than to throttle down and just do what they need to at this point. That's been seen in the toy story tumors already.
 
Very skeptical about what they're willing to invest in the Star Wars land...

Especially with the amount of money being poured into the black hole of animal kingdom right now...

I think they are likely to cut corners than to throttle down and just do what they need to at this point. That's been seen in the toy story tumors already.
Toy Story Land = Dinoland part deux
 
Very skeptical about what they're willing to invest in the Star Wars land...

Especially with the amount of money being poured into the black hole of animal kingdom right now...

I think they are likely to cut corners than to throttle down and just do what they need to at this point. That's been seen in the toy story tumors already.

I think skepticism is warranted. Not pessimism (necessarily) but certainly skepticism. In other words, "show me the beef".

If attendance has slipped they could react in any of the following ways

  1. win back customers by building more, better attractions with better pricing
  2. cut prices to win back customers but also cut spending
  3. raise prices, cut spending and spread out necessary spending as long as possible
Iger is "Mister #3". Not saying it's his only move, but it's his "go to" move in Florida for sure. As a fallback position he may move toward #2 ... grudgingly.
 
I think skepticism is warranted. Not pessimism (necessarily) but certainly skepticism. In other words, "show me the beef".

If attendance has slipped they could react in any of the following ways

  1. win back customers by building more, better attractions with better pricing
  2. cut prices to win back customers but also cut spending
  3. raise prices, cut spending and spread out necessary spending as long as possible
Iger is "Mister #3". Not saying it's his only move, but it's his "go to" move in Florida for sure. As a fallback position he may move toward #2 ... grudgingly.

#1 has been relegated by this regime as only to be encountered in a musuem...most especially in Orlando.
 

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