Kids sports/extra curriculars and $$$

[sam_gordon]

So, "tough luck" to the kids who can't afford it? So many sports heroes over the years would never make it if money were a factor back then. Hope Solo (for all her faults) has constantly said she never would have gotten to the top level if soccer were as expensive then as it is now.

You have no problems complaining about things, but I don't think I've heard you come up with solutions. So, "Mr. Expert". Team "x" has room for 20 students. 40 show up for tryouts. How do you choose who makes the team?

 

[Lilacs4Me]

The important part is to keep the basic level intact and prioritize before the travel teams. If your bylaws have covered that - well done.

Well, football is different than other sports - there is no "travel" in football. No tryouts, no cuts. The "tryout" aspect comes in when deciding who starts vs who gets their 10 plays/game, but we have that covered as well - our Mission Statement is clear (AND followed!) - to teach the sports of football and cheer in a safe, fun environment where winning is always secondary to building character, teamwork, discipline, and respect for self and others. The W's will take care of themselves in time. Playtime is earned by hard work, good attitude, and proving that you are willing to put team over self. That means showing up to practice instead of sleeping in or playing video games, or missing that birthday party to make the Saturday game. Of course there are always kids who will be better players, but DH is the football director and makes sure each team peppers the less-skilled kids in with the more experiences kids on a line so that they can all get playtime, instead of the typical sending your ringers in, taking them ALL out and putting your less-athletic kids in just to get crushed for 4 downs or get scored on, then pulling them off the field and putting your starters back in. Game schemes like that don't do anyone any good, and we make it a point not to let any of our coaches do it.

As for cheer, people will either do rec competitive cheer or all-star. They either want to cheer for a football team+competitions, or they just want to train for competitions. We don't have a lot of cross-over. We are also no-cut and place girls strictly by grade. If our registration numbers are awkward one year - for ex - 26 girls in k-2nd, but only 11 in 3rd-4th, we will move up a number of 2nd graders to even out the teams, but we then go by birthday - oldest girls move up first. Our goal for cheer is to make sure every girl on the team has a chance to shine with a special part, tumbling sequence, being in front for part of the routine, etc. From day one, we decided that nobody would be the superstar on our teams - if a girl/mom doesn't like that, they are free to go and pay thousands of $$ for all-star. Our girls are trained using the techniques the HS cheer teams use, and it does give them a leg up when trying out in the spring of 8th grade.

In our area, which is fairly affluent, youth travel sports are HUGE. It has definitely infiltrated into the school system (football excluded, it's just different altogether). Basketball is the worst here - we have a serious youth feeder league that starts at 5 years old, and by 3rd grade teams are consistently formed by draft and they tend to move up the ranks together. The coaches (parent volunteers) will then take their entire team and register them with the very highly "rec" league that is the only place kids who haven't played for years already even have a chance of playing. Of course these power-teams crush these little 8 year olds that are just thrown together in the rec league, then they move on to Middle School, where they all try out together and make it, again shutting out all the other kids. Now you have a group of 6th graders who play with the feeder league, then the "off-season" rec league, AND the middle school team. Eventually, they all go to AAU together, and then try out for the HS team. Kids who can't, or won't commit to all of that by age 5-6 are effectively shut out completely. My kids dabbled in basketball just for fun since they have always been more interested in football, but I have seen these parents/teams in action over the years enough to be completely disgusted by it! The same ones take over baseball, too, but my kids hated playing baseball so our stints in little league were short-lived.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

I don't think rec OR travel should be "prioritized". Why is one "better" than the other?

Again, for football, there really isn't "rec" vs "travel", but I will say that as a leader of our organization, I will ALWAYS prioritize my league over something else. And I do agree that if you are a rec league leader, it SHOULD be your goal to ensure your league STAYS rec, if that's your mission and in your by-laws, in order to give every kid a chance.

Maybe that's not how Jedi meant it, but that's how I took it. I could be wrong....

 

[Colleen27]

I understand the complaint, but lets be honest... there is a limited number of roster spots (varies by sport). Now, maybe you add multiple JV teams, or I know there are also teams that had Freshman, JV, and Varsity (FB at my HS was like that). But there's only 'x' amount of minutes to be played in games.

I get that. And I get that winning is the bottom line, which I honestly think is a shame at the freshman and JV levels - at that level, sports should still be somewhat developmental and open to kids who just want to play. I don't think it nurtures the better lessons that come from team sports (teamwork, hard work, commitment) to create or perpetuate an environment where participating in high school sports hinges on the ability to afford private coaching and elite teams from early elementary school.

Ugh. If either of the schools are a decent size, there's just no reason to consolidate. We have a few towns here with two high schools in them and some people always insist on combining them so they can be a "sports powerhouse". They don't even think that half the kids won't be playing anymore.

They aren't. That's the problem. Not just that they're small but also that they're both shrinking, to the tune of a 30% decline in student population over the last 20 years, which has created a state of perpetual budget crisis. The more affluent of the two is somewhat bigger and still offers a pretty well-rounded set of academic and athletic programs, but the smaller has shrunk to the point where AP and honors classes are basically a thing of the past because they can't justify keeping those sessions with only 10-15 students interested. Which has, understandably, caused a lot of bad feelings about the inequity between the two ends of the district. Sports haven't even come up as a pro of consolidation, only as the potential con of half the kids not being able to play any more in the more popular sports/the less affluent kids being shut out of sports that have a culture of travel/elite youth programs.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

Well, football is different than other sports - there is no "travel" in football. No tryouts, no cuts. The "tryout" aspect comes in when deciding who starts vs who gets their 10 plays/game, but we have that covered as well - our Mission Statement is clear (AND followed!) - to teach the sports of football and cheer in a safe, fun environment where winning is always secondary to building character, teamwork, discipline, and respect for self and others. The W's will take care of themselves in time. Playtime is earned by hard work, good attitude, and proving that you are willing to put team over self. That means showing up to practice instead of sleeping in or playing video games, or missing that birthday party to make the Saturday game. Of course there are always kids who will be better players, but DH is the football director and makes sure each team peppers the less-skilled kids in with the more experiences kids on a line so that they can all get playtime, instead of the typical sending your ringers in, taking them ALL out and putting your less-athletic kids in just to get crushed for 4 downs or get scored on, then pulling them off the field and putting your starters back in. Game schemes like that don't do anyone any good, and we make it a point not to let any of our coaches do it.

As for cheer, people will either do rec competitive cheer or all-star. They either want to cheer for a football team+competitions, or they just want to train for competitions. We don't have a lot of cross-over. We are also no-cut and place girls strictly by grade. If our registration numbers are awkward one year - for ex - 26 girls in k-2nd, but only 11 in 3rd-4th, we will move up a number of 2nd graders to even out the teams, but we then go by birthday - oldest girls move up first. Our goal for cheer is to make sure every girl on the team has a chance to shine with a special part, tumbling sequence, being in front for part of the routine, etc. From day one, we decided that nobody would be the superstar on our teams - if a girl/mom doesn't like that, they are free to go and pay thousands of $$ for all-star. Our girls are trained using the techniques the HS cheer teams use, and it does give them a leg up when trying out in the spring of 8th grade.

In our area, which is fairly affluent, youth travel sports are HUGE. It has definitely infiltrated into the school system (football excluded, it's just different altogether). Basketball is the worst here - we have a serious youth feeder league that starts at 5 years old, and by 3rd grade teams are consistently formed by draft and they tend to move up the ranks together. The coaches (parent volunteers) will then take their entire team and register them with the very highly "rec" league that is the only place kids who haven't played for years already even have a chance of playing. Of course these power-teams crush these little 8 year olds that are just thrown together in the rec league, then they move on to Middle School, where they all try out together and make it, again shutting out all the other kids. Now you have a group of 6th graders who play with the feeder league, then the "off-season" rec league, AND the middle school team. Eventually, they all go to AAU together, and then try out for the HS team. Kids who can't, or won't commit to all of that by age 5-6 are effectively shut out completely. My kids dabbled in basketball just for fun since they have always been more interested in football, but I have seen these parents/teams in action over the years enough to be completely disgusted by it! The same ones take over baseball, too, but my kids hated playing baseball so our stints in little league were short-lived.

I know nothing about cheer but it sounds like your DH is in line with what mine does. My husband coached our kids in soccer and basketball and was all about teaching and having fun. He has coached high school football forever and never cut. As for who played before, he really didn't care what a kid did in youth football. He, himself, was too big for Pop Warner but ended up playing in college...because he was big, lol.

Your last paragraph hit home with me, especially with basketball and baseball. As P&R member (and chair), we are constantly stressing that our job is to provide recreation for ALL, hence rec comes first. But every year, we have a shortage of kids in one age group that coincides with an abundance of travel teams in that age group. They travel far and wide - sadly, not to compete at a certain level but to a place they could win. And then we get phone calls from parents complaining that their travel kid is sitting on the bench most of the game. Of course they are, they were asked to do travel to fill out a team. We tell those parents they need to speak up but they feel like they are fighting a well established machine (aka good old boys club). What stinks around here is that the high school coaches who used to keep the rec and travel leagues at an arm's length have retired. So they've been replaced with coaches who listen to the youth level coaches way too much.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

You have no problems complaining about things, but I don't think I've heard you come up with solutions. So, "Mr. Expert". Team "x" has room for 20 students. 40 show up for tryouts. How do you choose who makes the team?

That's Mrs. Expert to you....anyway, high school teams normally have JV and freshman levels. If some have to be cut, then it's up to the coach on how to do that. I was fortunate to see a lot of coaches over the years that simply wouldn't pick a kid because he was super skilled. A good coach takes into account work ethic and teachability...and I've seen plenty of coaches change their numbers each year based on how many showed up and how many he though he could work with.

 

[sam_gordon]

That's Mrs. Expert to you

My apologies.

....anyway, high school teams normally have JV and freshman levels. If some have to be cut, then it's up to the coach on how to do that. I was fortunate to see a lot of coaches over the years that simply wouldn't pick a kid because he was super skilled. A good coach takes into account work ethic and teachability...and I've seen plenty of coaches change their numbers each year based on how many showed up and how many he though he could work with.

So it IS okay that cuts happen? When I mentioned that before, you criticized me. My point was a coach can't always take everyone (which you now seem to agree with). So there has to be some line that's drawn. And yes, it sucks to be the kid who gets cut. But what's the alternative?

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

My apologies.


So it IS okay that cuts happen? When I mentioned that before, you criticized me. My point was a coach can't always take everyone (which you now seem to agree with). So there has to be some line that's drawn. And yes, it sucks to be the kid who gets cut. But what's the alternative?

Of course it's ok in certain situations. We were talking about the earlier years before the kids get to high school. FWIW, our middle school does not cut in ANY sport...and apology accepted.

 

[Jen414]

My daughters are 16. Here's what we do:

All star cheer, year 9
My guess is this is about $15,000 a year at this point. This year, we had 6 out of state competitions, 3 of which required airfare and 14 nights in a hotel and 2 in state competitions. That is what makes it so expensive. I honestly haven't added it all up, but I believe $15k is probably correct. We are at a highly successful gym but are not on the top 2 teams. One of those teams had 5 trips that required flights. We are on our 3rd gym. All three gyms have booster clubs. We do not utilize them, but many do. The booster club allows for you to work at Gillette Stadium (Go Pats!!!) and pay for the majority of your season. Of course, you pretty much need to work every Patriots game, every Revolution game, and every concert in the summer. It basically becomes your part-time job.

Rec. softball, year 11
$175 registration for both combined
$75 for new cleats
They already have a glove and we get them new bats every couple of years. ($200 each)
Practically free when I compare it to cheer

High school cheer, about to start year 3
sneakers--they use their beat-up all-star ones
our high school does not have an athletic fee
camp--$200 each
Lots of miscellaneous costs throughout the year, but we do fundraising as a team, so it is all covered.

High school lacrosse, year 1
Just started this season because as you can see, we have so much EXTRA time on our hands!!! LOL!!!
cleats $55 each
mask $30 each
stick---using one from the school

Is this normal? Everyone's normal is different. If you are immersed in the all-star cheer world (or whatever travel sport you're involved in), yes it's normal. This is what my girls know so they think it's totally normal to travel all over the country to compete. We try to tell them that this is not normal at all and that they are extremely lucky in that we can afford it. I do not in any way believe it in normal. People that we are friends with that aren't cheer friends think we're crazy. So does my mother. We are also lucky in that they both do it so we do it as a family. Many of our cheer friends are constantly doing the divide and conquer thing because who wants to be dragged along to their sister's cheer comp for the umpteenth time????

 

[star72232]

Do you pay for belt testing as well? My older son did TKD when he was younger and made it as far as 2nd degree black belt, but we found it pretty expensive overall. Aside from the tuition, the belt tests (about every 6 months) were an extra fee on top of the other expenses.

We do pay for that. It depends on the belt level - the higher it is, the more it costs. The younger kids test about every 4-6 months, at about $50-60 each time. The older ones test less often, but it’s more expensive. It probably adds $300/year to our cost for overall testing. However, when you can get 4 kids doing a sport 3-4 times a week, with flexible times and you only need to take them to one place, all at the same time - it’s well worth it for us. It probably works out to about $700/year/kid, all in. Canadian dollars at that!

 

[sa cheermom]

One of the things jacking up prices for travel teams and making travel teams harder for people who struggle is the ridiculous "Stay to Play" trend. The teams have no control over those costs.

At least in cheer and I have heard it is in several other sports too, in order to play in a certain tournament or compete in a particular competition you must stay in one of their selected hotels. Only if you live within a certain radius can you opt out and you have to submit rosters to the event producer who checks that everyone has a hotel reservation at one of the hotels. And of course, the hotels jack up the price because they know they have a captive audience. I have checked Hotels.com for the week before and the week after a competition (they block out the hotel for the competition days) and the price is always cheaper.

We leave on Monday for Disney World for ICU and USASF Worlds. Thank goodness Worlds is not a Stay to Play but when we go to NCA in Dallas the prices are ridiculous.

Our Worlds teams do a ton of their own fundraisers to help with expenses though. For instance, they host Parent Night Outs regularly. They charge $25 a kid and they set up a movie screen, make popcorn, do some coaching for the young ones that need some help with tumbling, set up a huge bouncy house, and a bunch of other things. Parents love it especially during the holidays when they can have a few hours to go shop.

Between the 2 gyms, they usually have around 100 kids (doesn't have to be athletes in the gym) so they make about $4,000 a month after they take out expenses. It usually covers a good portion of their travel costs.

They also have work study programs where senior athletes of any team can jr coach, help keep the gyms clean, work the front desk, all to reduce their costs. They have companies lined up that sponsor athletes. There are also rec and prep teams in the gym that are non travel teams but get the same type of coaching for a less expensive option.

While cheer is a very, very expensive sport our gym and a ton of gyms I know go out of their way to provide opportunities to put it in reach of everyone.

 

[sam_gordon]

Only if you live within a certain radius can you opt out and you have to submit rosters to the event producer who checks that everyone has a hotel reservation at one of the hotels. And of course, the hotels jack up the price because they know they have a captive audience. I have checked Hotels.com for the week before and the week after a competition (they block out the hotel for the competition days) and the price is always cheaper.

They do this for soccer also. However, when I've checked, the group price for a tournament weekend is actually cheaper than the web price. I don't think you can compare the previous/next weeks because of supply & demand. Obviously tournament weekends will have a larger demand, causing the price to go up. Next time you get assigned a hotel, check the group rate, then go to the hotel site (or a TA site) and see the cost difference.

As far the checks, maybe it's different in cheer, but even though there's a "requirement" to stay in the team hotel, I don't know how much anyone checks. When we go to Disney for soccer, they have the same requirement, but half of our team (us included) don't stay at the team hotel.

 

[soccerdad72]

As far the checks, maybe it's different in cheer, but even though there's a "requirement" to stay in the team hotel, I don't know how much anyone checks. When we go to Disney for soccer, they have the same requirement, but half of our team (us included) don't stay at the team hotel.

We've had a tournament threaten to pull our team off the schedule and return our entry fee if we didn't have a certain percentage of players booked with hotels that they blocked for us. I forget what the actual percentage was, either 50% or 75%, I think. So occasionally, tournaments do check those things.

 

[sam_gordon]

We've had a tournament threaten to pull our team off the schedule and return our entry fee if we didn't have a certain percentage of players booked with hotels that they blocked for us. I forget what the actual percentage was, either 50% or 75%, I think. So occasionally, tournaments do check those things.

I wonder when they check though. If they check before they finalize the schedule, then once they check you cancel your room (depends on cancellation policies of course).

And how do they determine the percentage? For example, our soccer roster has 16 players plus the coach. That doesn't necessarily equate to 17 rooms needed though. You can have more than one player in a room. So lets say you have a bunch sharing and you truly only need 12 rooms (not unreasonable). So the 50% mark would only be 6 rooms.

 

[mjkacmom]

For some big dance competitions, if you don’t book in the block, you don’t get a wristband, and have to pay $100 per person per day to attend. Booking in the block lowers the venue cost, one year so many people cancelled their block rooms and booked elsewhere that the organizers lost a lot of money and went bankrupt.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

Holy Cow. Forcing to stay at a hotel just doesn't sound right. It's like "forced" profits for the tournament directors.

Almost sounds like when USA Gymnastics started bogus taxes on their members....must have so many CEUs per year and low and behold, they are only offered at national congress. If your athlete is going to compete a certain skill, must be certified at hefty price. Then there was the ridiculous safety course which was more like "how to avoid a lawsuit". That worked out great in the end.

 

[mjkacmom]

Holy Cow. Forcing to stay at a hotel just doesn't sound right. It's like "forced" profits for the tournament directors.

Almost sounds like when USA Gymnastics started bogus taxes on their members....must have so many CEUs per year and low and behold, they are only offered at national congress. If your athlete is going to compete a certain skill, must be certified at hefty price. Then there was the ridiculous safety course which was more like "how to avoid a lawsuit". That worked out great in the end.

Actually, it’s to keep costs down for everyone, the more rooms that are filled, the lower the cost is for the venue. What happened that one year before they mandated the block is that rooms were booked, but when they were canceled, the organizers had to pay the increased costs OOP, and it pretty much ruined them for 10 years. These competitions are hosted by different regions in the country and world, hotel rates vary widely by region. The block rates are usually pretty good, and they are decent hotels. However, take Orlando for example, where you can find dirt cheap hotel rooms, there would be folks who would be willing to drive a bit and stay in a $60 room at a basic hotel vs. $130 at a nice hotel. Without a block, venue costs increase, and then registration fees go up to make up the difference.

 

[soccerdad72]

I wonder when they check though. If they check before they finalize the schedule, then once they check you cancel your room (depends on cancellation policies of course).

And how do they determine the percentage? For example, our soccer roster has 16 players plus the coach. That doesn't necessarily equate to 17 rooms needed though. You can have more than one player in a room. So lets say you have a bunch sharing and you truly only need 12 rooms (not unreasonable). So the 50% mark would only be 6 rooms.

Not sure the answers to really any of your questions - honestly, it's the first time I recall ever seeing something like this. I went back and found the e-mail from our team manager. It was sent in early February in regards to a tournament we're going to next week. We have two teams going, so it's 36 players and the e-mail said that at the moment, only 11 rooms had been booked. Our manager did go on to say that if families had booked through a different team's block of rooms (we have a number of players with younger siblings), that 'qualified', we apparently just needed to let the tournament know. I would imagine that letting them know about multiple players in one room would also count as well.

 

[Jen414]

One of the things jacking up prices for travel teams and making travel teams harder for people who struggle is the ridiculous "Stay to Play" trend. The teams have no control over those costs.

At least in cheer and I have heard it is in several other sports too, in order to play in a certain tournament or compete in a particular competition you must stay in one of their selected hotels. Only if you live within a certain radius can you opt out and you have to submit rosters to the event producer who checks that everyone has a hotel reservation at one of the hotels. And of course, the hotels jack up the price because they know they have a captive audience. I have checked Hotels.com for the week before and the week after a competition (they block out the hotel for the competition days) and the price is always cheaper.

We leave on Monday for Disney World for ICU and USASF Worlds. Thank goodness Worlds is not a Stay to Play but when we go to NCA in Dallas the prices are ridiculous.

Our Worlds teams do a ton of their own fundraisers to help with expenses though. For instance, they host Parent Night Outs regularly. They charge $25 a kid and they set up a movie screen, make popcorn, do some coaching for the young ones that need some help with tumbling, set up a huge bouncy house, and a bunch of other things. Parents love it especially during the holidays when they can have a few hours to go shop.

Between the 2 gyms, they usually have around 100 kids (doesn't have to be athletes in the gym) so they make about $4,000 a month after they take out expenses. It usually covers a good portion of their travel costs.

They also have work study programs where senior athletes of any team can jr coach, help keep the gyms clean, work the front desk, all to reduce their costs. They have companies lined up that sponsor athletes. There are also rec and prep teams in the gym that are non travel teams but get the same type of coaching for a less expensive option.

While cheer is a very, very expensive sport our gym and a ton of gyms I know go out of their way to provide opportunities to put it in reach of everyone.

Stay to play is such a scam!!!!! We went to One Up a few weeks ago in Nashville. We stayed at the Gaylord which is where the competition was. Our gym had a block there. With resort fees and taxes, our room---which was just a regular room with 2 queen beds overlooking the parking lot, not one of the atriums--was $324 a night. And if you wanted to park your car there, it was another $30 a day. There was another conference there that weekend. I talked with a family checking in at the same time as we were. They were paying less than $200 a night including all of fees and their parking was only $9 a day. Where is that extra money going??????? If we don't book through the housing company, there is the threat of disqualification. However, we attended another competition in Raleigh and when I booked through the housing company, there was no place to put my girls' names nor their team name nor their gym name. So how did they even know where we were staying?????? The whole thing is going to drive people right out of the sport.

Good luck next week at Worlds @sa cheermom!

 

[bellebud]

Our Worlds teams do a ton of their own fundraisers to help with expenses though. For instance, they host Parent Night Outs regularly. They charge $25 a kid and they set up a movie screen, make popcorn, do some coaching for the young ones that need some help with tumbling, set up a huge bouncy house, and a bunch of other things. Parents love it especially during the holidays when they can have a few hours to go shop.

Between the 2 gyms, they usually have around 100 kids (doesn't have to be athletes in the gym) so they make about $4,000 a month after they take out expenses. It usually covers a good portion of their travel costs.

They also have work study programs where senior athletes of any team can jr coach, help keep the gyms clean, work the front desk, all to reduce their costs. They have companies lined up that sponsor athletes. There are also rec and prep teams in the gym that are non travel teams but get the same type of coaching for a less expensive option.

While cheer is a very, very expensive sport our gym and a ton of gyms I know go out of their way to provide opportunities to put it in reach of everyone.

I love, love, love this!!

I absolutely hate the traditional "fundraising" techniques... trying to sell me overpriced junk, asking for money to sponsor the kid to walk, or bowl, or run laps. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Fundraisers where the kids are actually working are something I'd happily support, but not those other types of fundraisers.