Kids sports/extra curriculars and $$$

[NotUrsula]

Actually, it’s to keep costs down for everyone, the more rooms that are filled, the lower the cost is for the venue. What happened that one year before they mandated the block is that rooms were booked, but when they were canceled, the organizers had to pay the increased costs OOP, and it pretty much ruined them for 10 years. These competitions are hosted by different regions in the country and world, hotel rates vary widely by region. The block rates are usually pretty good, and they are decent hotels. However, take Orlando for example, where you can find dirt cheap hotel rooms, there would be folks who would be willing to drive a bit and stay in a $60 room at a basic hotel vs. $130 at a nice hotel. Without a block, venue costs increase, and then registration fees go up to make up the difference.

Umm ... yes and no. I've been a travel manager for work conferences and for team travel, and in all cases that I've ever dealt with, the big perk to the bloc booking (besides guaranteed occupancy for the hotel) is free meeting rooms. The way that it normally works is that the hotel will give you free meeting room use for X seating capacity if you book Y number of rooms. (NOT beds in the US/Can market, but it makes a difference if you are booking in Europe.) I know nothing about the mechanics of gymnastics competitions, but are they not normally held in athletic arenas? The only way I can see the number of rooms booked really affecting the bottom line of the sponsoring organization's costs is if the competition is held on the hotel's premises, and they are counting on getting hotel convention center spaces for free.

I honestly can't fathom a system like the one you describe being used by any non-profit sports oversight organization. It is in fact pretty much the complete opposite of the system used in my DD's sport. Here is how it works for our club program (our events are NOT held in hotel convention centers, as it is a winter sport): Starting with teams at age 7, our athletes are required to travel as a team, and the only parents allowed to travel in their company are the designated chaperones (and the team manager parents are always in that group; there are 2 for each team. Usually we have 7 teams traveling, with a total of around 124 athletes. A large competition will usually be 3-5 days & involve around 3000 athletes total.) Athletes, coaches and chaperones travel together by air or by bus, and the cost of that travel is included in the athletes' standard club fees. We book room blocs about 6-12 months out, normally choosing from a list of preferred hotels that offer a pre-negotiated price arranged by the local organizing committee, and we usually get one free conference room for every 30 sleeping rooms we book -- the athletes use those rooms to have meals, study hall, team meetings, changing space, and warmup practice space, and as a storage/rest space after checkout time on the final day. The athletes sleep 3 to a room with one chaperone parent in each room (always a parent of one of the athletes in that room), except for those athletes who are 17 or older, who do not require an overnight chaperone with them. Coaches share 2 to a room, unless they wish to pay the extra out of pocket to get a private room. Three meals per day are supplied, unless there is some kind of special restaurant meal planned for free time; parents will be asked to send money to cover that. The only time additional travel fees are charged to parents after the fact is if a team qualifies for national finals, for which travel is not pre-charged. (The few "powerhouse" teams in each division do tend to pre-book rooms for Nationals, but the rest of us try not to count unhatched chickens. ) Athletes younger than age 7 travel with parents to competitions, but those teams only compete regionally. Normally what you see are 2 Moms and 2 athletes driving together & sharing one room.

Parents are welcome to (and encouraged to) travel separately to watch the events, but they are normally asked NOT to book into the team hotel, for a couple of reasons: 1) It limits distractions. The kids are there to compete, not be tourists, and they are "on" from the moment they put on their travel uniforms and leave home. Coaches are in charge, and it's better not to have parents around issuing contrary instructions. If parents have traveled to watch, they are welcome to go visit with the athletes at their hotel during scheduled free time/study hall periods. 2) These hotels tend to be the ones closest to the competition venues, so by courtesy custom, we try to make sure that athletes get first dibs on staying there, so that they have a short commute back and forth to the competition venue. If all of team A's families and friends book into the same hotel as the team, then team B will end up further from the venue, and no one likes that.

Sometimes new parents are frightened by this system and think of it as harsh, but the club has been using it for 15 years now, and it works very well for the kids. Everyone knows exactly what to expect, and conflicts are few and far-between. In addition, it really builds confidence in the kids: they are trusted to follow the rules and positively represent the club, and they learn at an early age to organize themselves and shoulder a lot of personal responsibility. As parents, we all have stories of how our kids' teachers have commented on how well they handle themselves on school trips, and how well they manage complex cooperative projects.

PS: The housing company knows who you are with based on the link or phone number you use to book; each bloc gets a unique link.

 

[mjkacmom]

The sport is Irish dancing, not gymnastics, and they need extremely large ballrooms to build stages, for 5000 or so dancers and their families. I think the Gaylord in Nashville has been the only venue about to have rooms for all, most of the time additional hotels are added. Here is a current competition where the block is mandatory https://www.visitgreensboronc.com/2019-world-championships-in-irish-dancing/
https://www.greensboro.com/blogs/go...cle_64f7558f-0a5b-5719-ab99-ce9250ed757b.html

 

[NotUrsula]

OK, that makes sense then; they need heads in beds to cover the ballroom costs. Still, if you have the dancers room together, will that not be enough to cover the team's room obligation?

(Sorry for conflating the activity in question; some of the gymnastics parents seemed to be mentioning this practice as well.)

 

[mjkacmom]

OK, that makes sense then; they need heads in beds to cover the ballroom costs. Still, if you have the dancers room together, will that not be enough to cover the team's room obligation?

(Sorry for conflating the activity in question; some of the gymnastics parents seemed to be mentioning this practice as well.)

Usually dancers stay with their families, although dd18 just flew down with a friend. They have more than enough to fill the hotel. I think what happened in Canada years ago is that they filled the main venue with the block, so others booked outside the block. Then, many who booked at the main venue canceled and rebooked outside the block. To keep this from ever happening again, you must book in the block, either main hotel or overflow hotel.

 

[NotUrsula]

We deal with some pretty severe cancellation penalties, but we only book enough rooms for the athletes in the bloc, so that's not really much of an issue; the team will always go, and we have alternates if someone is sick or injured.
I'm just questioning whether it is really necessary for families to stay within the bloc, if the program can fulfill the room obligation by having only the participants stay there. While it may not be the traditional way of doing it, it may make sense to switch over if people are leaving the activity due to cost (not to mention that rooming together means that the program has more control over what the participants get up to, such as what they eat and how much sleep they get.)

I should note that not all programs in our sport manage travel the way that our program does, but the more competitive programs all use that system now, because it seems to help results, and the cost can be spread more evenly and predictably this way; bulk buying of tickets and meals lowers the cost across the board. I've heard that many of the smaller programs still use a family travel model for all teams, but in the end that tends to be much more prone to snafus and cost variations, IME. The one financial upside to DD advancing to the higher-level teams was that now we could choose whether or not *we* wanted to spend the extra money to go to events. Our rules and standards are carefully reasoned and strictly adhered to: I have no qualms at all about sending DD off across country (or across the world) to travel with this team.

BTW, I'll also mention that this sport also requires theatrical-level makeup and costuming, and it still works. We designate and train certain adults to handle that assembly-line style for the younger ones; the team manager and the dress mom travel to every competition at program expense, and all chaperones for younger teams are trained to get the team ready. From about age 12 the athletes handle it themselves, doing their own makeup and doing one another's hair, though they still have a team manager and a dress mom to enforce the standard look and take care of any issues.

 

[mjkacmom]

We deal with some pretty severe cancellation penalties, but we only book enough rooms for the athletes in the bloc, so that's not really much of an issue; the team will always go, and we have alternates if someone is sick or injured.
I'm just questioning whether it is really necessary for families to stay within the bloc, if the program can fulfill the room obligation by having only the participants stay there. While it may not be the traditional way of doing it, it may make sense to switch over if people are leaving the activity due to cost (not to mention that rooming together means that the program has more control over what the participants get up to, such as what they eat and how much sleep they get.)

I should note that not all programs in our sport manage travel the way that our program does, but the more competitive programs all use that system now, because it seems to help results, and the cost can be spread more evenly and predictably this way; bulk buying of tickets and meals lowers the cost across the board. I've heard that many of the smaller programs still use a family travel model for all teams, but in the end that tends to be much more prone to snafus and cost variations, IME. The one financial upside to DD advancing to the higher-level teams was that now we could choose whether or not *we* wanted to spend the extra money to go to events. Our rules and standards are carefully reasoned and strictly adhered to: I have no qualms at all about sending DD off across country (or across the world) to travel with this team.

There is a big difference in age with the dancers at the competitions, from 6 year olds to over 21, and different age groups dance on different days, plus teams dance in different days. You could be dancing 3 different days, maybe a solo and two teams. For many dancers, especially the younger ones, parents get them ready, getting a wig and makeup done is about an hour. It’s also very cultural, coming from Ireland, where entire families would spend the whole day at local competitions. It’s a very social activity (and alcohol may or may not play a part...). Ds16 and dd16 travel to soccer tournaments, but it’s totally different from Irish dancing. Up until a decade ago, you’d sign up for a local competition and have no idea when you were scheduled to dance until you arrived that morning. Now you get a vague idea 3 days before. A lot of it is still very traditional (although I’ve sent my daughters overseas several times without me).

 

[NotUrsula]

There is a big difference in age with the dancers at the competitions, from 6 year olds to over 21, and different age groups dance on different days, plus teams dance in different days. You could be dancing 3 different days, maybe a solo and two teams. For many dancers, especially the younger ones, parents get them ready, getting a wig and makeup done is about an hour. It’s also very cultural, coming from Ireland, where entire families would spend the whole day at local competitions. It’s a very social activity (and alcohol may or may not play a part...). Ds16 and dd16 travel to soccer tournaments, but it’s totally different from Irish dancing. Up until a decade ago, you’d sign up for a local competition and have no idea when you were scheduled to dance until you arrived that morning. Now you get a vague idea 3 days before. A lot of it is still very traditional (although I’ve sent my daughters overseas several times without me).

The cultural part I'm well familiar with; I participated in Irish Dance way back in the days when only Irish people did it (or more accurately, only Republican Irish did it), when AOH was the primary organizer of feiseanna in America. That was before wigs, before makeup, before everything but an actual cape and a lace collar. My family are from the Gaeltacht (my Dad was a fiddler), and we run to a lot of Trad musicians, I still dance some Sean-nós on occasion. I have a lot of young cousins and nieces who dance in Ireland and the UK with An Comhdháil schools, but none who do it in the US anymore. It's rather different here nowadays, if you'll pardon the opinion of an old hand. DD has a good friend who is an international competitor with an An Coimisiún school.

FWIW, the scheduling situation that we deal with isn't all that much different, though we do manage a real schedule at least a month out. What we have become good at is sticking to what is decided, so once the schedule is made, it seldom goes off the rails, and for club morale and loyalty, everyone watches everyone else in the club compete if they are not up themselves, so we are there for the entire competition. I really do like being able to turn over responsibility for DD to her chaperones and coaches while at competitions; that leaves the rest of us adults free to watch as much as we want, and to go out for grown-up dinners without the kiddoes once they are done for the night . (We have an accepted practice of scheduling the adult competitions last in the evenings, Thank God, so that the younger ones can be got to bed at a decent hour.)

 

[sa cheermom]

Stay to play is such a scam!!!!! We went to One Up a few weeks ago in Nashville. We stayed at the Gaylord which is where the competition was. Our gym had a block there. With resort fees and taxes, our room---which was just a regular room with 2 queen beds overlooking the parking lot, not one of the atriums--was $324 a night. And if you wanted to park your car there, it was another $30 a day. There was another conference there that weekend. I talked with a family checking in at the same time as we were. They were paying less than $200 a night including all of fees and their parking was only $9 a day. Where is that extra money going??????? If we don't book through the housing company, there is the threat of disqualification. However, we attended another competition in Raleigh and when I booked through the housing company, there was no place to put my girls' names nor their team name nor their gym name. So how did they even know where we were staying?????? The whole thing is going to drive people right out of the sport.

Good luck next week at Worlds @sa cheermom!

They are a joke! In our sport, Stay to Play definitely does not lower costs!

Thanks!

 

[longboard55]

Just glad we did not go down that road. I do not see soccer as a long term revenue provider for most kids. We did fine with just vanilla AYSO soccer, in fact once all the club kids moved out it was much better.

 

[bushdianee]

My 9 yo niece is in dance and competitive figure skating. Her goal is to go to the Olympics and then skate for Disney on Ice! She takes 2 lessons a week with an experienced coach for around $30 a half hour, 1 lesson from a beginning coach which is probably around $15, several classes both on and off ice which vary in cost, ice time which is about $14 an hour for both lessons & practice. Skates are over $200 a pair, skating dresses are at least $100 each. Competitions run about $50-100 for each event she is in (she's only on the ice for 1-2 minutes for each event)plus the coach's fees, ice time, etc. Travel expenses to and from competitions for the family. The coach's expenses are divided between the skaters. Plus club fees and volunteer time for the parents. Right now her competitions are local or 3-6 hours away so drivable. She is on the verge of moving up to the regional team which means farther travel for harder competitions and a 2 week "boot camp" in Virginia Beach in the summer. Right now is her busiest time of the year with school winding down, dance recital and extra practices for that and her skating club is putting on their annual ice show. She is in 4 numbers each for the dance recital and the ice show. She is at the rink a couple of mornings before school and several evenings for couple of hours. She says this is her last year of dance. She is the type of kid who wants to do everything and is generally good at whatever she tries, her 11 yo brother is the complete opposite- a homebody who has no interest in any type of sports. He is fairly good at bowling but has no interest in joining a league.

 

[sam_gordon]

Just glad we did not go down that road. I do not see soccer as a long term revenue provider for most kids. We did fine with just vanilla AYSO soccer, in fact once all the club kids moved out it was much better.

NO sport should be looked at as a “long term revenue provider”. The reason to go to a select/travel team is to challenge the better players (this is any sport, not just soccer). No different than kids taking AP classes in HS.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I have never heard of "Stay to Play" before this thread. When we traveled each family booked their own rooms, often at the same place in order to get a team discount set up by the team director, but sometimes we booked somewhere different. After games we were more family oriented than team oriented, generally going off on our own to explore.

 

[DisNerdSocal]

I have three teenage boys, each involved in their own extra-curriculars.

DS 17 - plays basketball in league and at his high school, takes voice & guitar lessons, and sings in his high school choir. We pay tournament entry fees, choir competition fees and costumes, along with a Spring Break trip every year through the school. All told throughout the year we easily pay $6-8,000 on him depending on how many basketball camps he attends.

DS 17 - plays football for his high school, weight lifts in the off-season, takes voice lessons, and sings in his high school choir. We pay for football camps, equipment, uniform, etc as well as player position coaching in the off-season for his football. We also pay choir competition fees and costuming with a Spring Break trip every year. His total is at least $8k a year.

DS 14 - is our super-involved child. He plays tennis and football for rec leagues and wrestles for his middle school. He will be playing football only in high school next year. He also takes piano and cello lessons. He participates in our city's exchange program - has been a host and an exchange student, just got back from Japan!! - which costs us for the trips only and small fees when he's hosting a student. He also is first chair in his school's orchestra, which includes not only the lessons but instrument rental/maintenance, competition and tour fees, and music camp fees. I don't want to total all his activities up for fear of a small heart attack but I would estimate at least $10k a year on him and up... He's a straight A student and makes up some of the cost for his activities by volunteering to walk dogs for our neighbors, raking and mowing yards, etc.

The Spring Break trips alone cost me $9,000 for all 3 of them, needless to say I worked a TON of overtime before they went.

 

[sa cheermom]

I have never heard of "Stay to Play" before this thread. When we traveled each family booked their own rooms, often at the same place in order to get a team discount set up by the team director, but sometimes we booked somewhere different. After games we were more family oriented than team oriented, generally going off on our own to explore.

Here are the Stay To Play rules for one of the larger competitions (NCA Dallas) that usually draws well over 25,000 athletes from numerous countries for the 3 day weekend.

http://nca.s3.varsity.com.s3.amazonaws.com/Files/links/asn_stay_to_play_policy.pdf
Pretty extensive 2 page document. They are pretty strict, do check, and run an after competition audit to make sure nobody cancelled their rooms before the competition. It really doesn't matter though because pretty much every hotel in Dallas blocks out all their rooms for that weekend so you couldn't book a room within half an hour of the convention center on your own if you wanted to. Even if you have family in the area you have to get it approved to stay with them and not at a Stay To Play hotel. Usually it is approved, but they have the right to not approve it.

Since there are 5 floors + the arena going from 8am to 10pm at night, for our gym at least, it would be virtually impossible to have just a couple of chaperones per team travel with the team. Our younger athletes are not even allowed to wander the halls to the bathroom unaccompanied due to the craziness of 75,000 people in a convention center. Our gym brings over 500 athletes to Dallas each year and requires one parent/chaperone per room to contain the craziness.

 

[lifesavacation]

I have never heard of "Stay to Play" before this thread. When we traveled each family booked their own rooms, often at the same place in order to get a team discount set up by the team director, but sometimes we booked somewhere different. After games we were more family oriented than team oriented, generally going off on our own to explore.

My daughter is on a national volleyball team and it’s always stay to play. I don’t mind. The girls stay as a team so they aren’t with parents. We have to have them at the hotel by a certain time (everyone books flights separately) and they are then released back to parents after the tournament. The coach takes care of all the meals, snacks, and getting the girls to and from the venue. Dh and I usually book at nicer hotels and then see DD briefly after her games. Some of the parents choose not to travel to every tournament so that cuts down on cost.

To answer the initial question, we pay 15k or more per year for dd’s 16u volleyball season. I know that sounds like a lot, but her team competes at the national level. All the girls on her team are capable of playing in college. Dd already has 2 scholarship offers each worth 250k. Duke, Cornell, and Univ of VA are coming to watch her play next weekend. Rice reached out and will watch her at Nationals. We would have to take loans for dd to go to these universities so the money we are spending is definitely worth it.

 

[Dumbo777]

My two oldest kids are in AG and not sports. My oldest raised a steer this year for her project. We paid $1200 for the steer, another $200 for the pen, $400 a month in food, and then another $120 a month in hay, various vitamins and supplements, plus about another $15 the last couple of months for deer corn. Time commitment is what you make out if it and how well you want your project to turn out. We got wild steers straight out of the pasture, so they needed to be halter broken,vaccinated and all that good stuff. We spent 8 hrs a day in the barn in July in Texas heat with a two year old old and a one year old. It was tough. We drive to the school to feed feed this animal twice a day sometimes three or four if he was sick (which was like every other week). He needed to be fed before our presents were opened on Christmas and before our Thanksgiving dinner. She had her steer from July until the last week of Jan. I swore up and down she would be the first and last to raise a steer in our family. Well guess what? The new steers just came in and I'm in love. So now we are saving up and counting down the days until my 12 yr old gets to high school so he can raise a steer.
While my daughter is raising her steer, from October to Jan my son is raising meat broilers (meat chickens) for market (or our freezer). These birds are very delicate. The chickens cost $50 per 25 birds, but their food for six weeks plus supplements is about $500. So if he raises for the major stockshows it is $550 x how ever many stockshows he is raising for. It's gets pretty costly, but I can't tell you how much I have seen my children grow in self confidence and character. I have seen my daughter take control of a 1400 pound steer when he is misbehaving and show him what he needs to be doing. I have seen both kids manage school, animals,4h duties and home life. They are better kids because of it.
We now have a four year old old in tball, so to say the least it is interesting. All in all if we can afford it, we do it. If not, then we don't .

 

[Pea-n-Me]

My two oldest kids are in AG and not sports. My oldest raised a steer this year for her project. We paid $1200 for the steer, another $200 for the pen, $400 a month in food, and then another $120 a month in hay, various vitamins and supplements, plus about another $15 the last couple of months for deer corn. Time commitment is what you make out if it and how well you want your project to turn out. We got wild steers straight out of the pasture, so they needed to be halter broken,vaccinated and all that good stuff. We spent 8 hrs a day in the barn in July in Texas heat with a two year old old and a one year old. It was tough. We drive to the school to feed feed this animal twice a day sometimes three or four if he was sick (which was like every other week). He needed to be fed before our presents were opened on Christmas and before our Thanksgiving dinner. She had her steer from July until the last week of Jan. I swore up and down she would be the first and last to raise a steer in our family. Well guess what? The new steers just came in and I'm in love. So now we are saving up and counting down the days until my 12 yr old gets to high school so he can raise a steer.
While my daughter is raising her steer, from October to Jan my son is raising meat broilers (meat chickens) for market (or our freezer). These birds are very delicate. The chickens cost $50 per 25 birds, but their food for six weeks plus supplements is about $500. So if he raises for the major stockshows it is $550 x how ever many stockshows he is raising for. It's gets pretty costly, but I can't tell you how much I have seen my children grow in self confidence and character. I have seen my daughter take control of a 1400 pound steer when he is misbehaving and show him what he needs to be doing. I have seen both kids manage school, animals,4h duties and home life. They are better kids because of it.
We now have a four year old old in tball, so to say the least it is interesting. All in all if we can afford it, we do it. If not, then we don't .

That sounds like a really great experience! Will the steer eventually be slaughtered? Will your DD be ok with that?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Some of these costs are very surprising!

 

[Dumbo777]

That sounds like a really great experience! Will the steer eventually be slaughtered? Will your DD be ok with that?

Yes, he was slaughtered. She placed fourth in the stockshow which means she goes to auction and her steer goes to slaughter. It was hard. We all cried, my two year old cried for an hour. We could all hear him mooing to my daughter from the trailer. It was tough, but it teaches all our kids where their food comes from. They know that the neat we eat doesn't just come from the grocery store. It teaches them to be responsible stewards of the environment because the grass and the steer is chewing on, is going to meat in your belly one day. We have raised pigs the last three years, but this year it was her last year, so it was go big or go home.


Disclaimer*** we don't eat our own animals unless it's the chickens and then they get processed and go in the freezer. Our animals that go to auction get sold and slaughtered to a different source

 

[Dumbo777]

That sounds like a really great experience! Will the steer eventually be slaughtered? Will your DD be ok with that?

Plus the kids know going into the project that it is for meat production, but we always end up getting extremely attached.