"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[skyblue17]

We will learn and grow as a society, but imho sometimes we do go over the top with making everything so PC.

We will, and things that may seem "over the top" as too PC now may be seen as things that were obviously oversights years from now, much like if we look back to other eras of time.

I personally am fine with people asking genuine questions as to why, but it bothers me when I people dismiss efforts to be more inclusive because it might mean a little more work for them. We're all works in progress. I can confidently say that my views have evolved a lot as I experienced more and met more people. I'm grateful for that, but I do recognize that not everyone has that experience and not everyone is going to be realize the effect that microaggressions can have when they add up over time, especially if they aren't familiar with what they are. So I see articles like this to serve as a reminder to be more mindful. If you don't agree, don't do it. We all choose how we represent ourselves to the world.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

"Ladies and gentlemen" = three words, 18 letters, 7 syllables.

"Everybody" = one word, 9 letters, 4 syllables.

"Everyone" = one word, 8 letters, 3 syllables.

"Y'all" = one word, 4 letters & one punctuation. 2 syllables.

Seem's like "y'all" is the most efficient choice to me.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

"Hey, youse guys" covers the entire spectrum.

 

[Moliphino]

"Ladies and gentlemen" = three words, 18 letters, 7 syllables.

"Everybody" = one word, 9 letters, 4 syllables.

"Everyone" = one word, 8 letters, 3 syllables.

"Y'all" = one word, 4 letters & one punctuation. 2 syllables.

Seem's like "y'all" is the most efficient choice to me.

"You" = one word, one syllable

 

[sam_gordon]

it bothers me when I people dismiss efforts to be more inclusive because it might mean a little more work for them.

I don't think people are dismissive because of a "little more work". @fly girl summed it up very well. It seems weekly (if not daily) there's some new phrase or word or symbol that's not supposed to be used. Whether that's because some fringe group "took it over" or it's "more PC" or it's "offensive", these are words and symbols that many of us have been using all of our lives. In another thread someone is claiming that "Hello!" is offensive. Just like you commenting about the effects of microaggressions over time, these little "don't do this or that because it's offensive now" have the same effects.

ETA: And yes, maybe in future years we'll look back and say "I can't believe how often I said 'Hello'. What was I thinking?". But in the moment, it all seems a little strange.

 

[skyblue17]

I don't think people are dismissive because of a "little more work". @fly girl summed it up very well. It seems weekly (if not daily) there's some new phrase or word or symbol that's not supposed to be used. Whether that's because some fringe group "took it over" or it's "more PC" or it's "offensive", these are words and symbols that many of us have been using all of our lives. In another thread someone is claiming that "Hello!" is offensive. Just like you commenting about the effects of microaggressions over time, these little "don't do this or that because it's offensive now" have the same effects.

They don't have the same effect. A slight inconvenience as you navigate the evolution of language vs. actually making people feel uncomfortable because people don't want to break away from what they are used to. Really, use any words you want. But I've noticed a trend that people would rather say "how am I supposed to know that?" when it's being explained how or why. So when you do refuse to accept it, it is dismissive, whether you like it or not. Being aggravated that a word you like doesn't mean what you want it to isn't the same as having to put up with people who refuse to adapt anything about how they express themselves because they don't feel like it, thus having to role with consistently being misrepresented or misunderstood.

 

[sam_gordon]

They don't have the same effect. A slight inconvenience as you navigate the evolution of language vs. actually making people feel uncomfortable because people don't want to break away from what they are used to. Really, use any words you want. But I've noticed a trend that people would rather say "how am I supposed to know that?" when it's being explained how or why. So when you do refuse to accept it, it is dismissive, whether you like it or not. Being aggravated that a word you like doesn't mean what you want it to isn't the same as having to put up with people who refuse to adapt anything about how they express themselves because they don't feel like it, thus having to role with consistently being misrepresented or misunderstood.

I thought it was posted earlier in the thread that passengers (of any gender) didn't have a problem with "ladies and gentlemen", that the airline did it on their own. Did I misunderstand somewhere?

I've got no problem with companies being more inclusive. I think they should. I don't have a problem with changing "ladies and gentlemen" to "everyone", "passengers", "monkeys", whatever. It just seems strange to me (again, I'm an old fogie) that "ladies and gentlemen" would NOT be considered inclusive.

 

[skyblue17]

I thought it was posted earlier in the thread that passengers (of any gender) didn't have a problem with "ladies and gentlemen", that the airline did it on their own. Did I misunderstand somewhere?

I've got no problem with companies being more inclusive. I think they should. I don't have a problem with changing "ladies and gentlemen" to "everyone", "passengers", "monkeys", whatever. It just seems strange to me (again, I'm an old fogie) that "ladies and gentlemen" would NOT be considered inclusive.

I feel like we've moved beyond this particular instance in this conversation and are speaking generally, no?

And we've circled back around to how it's strange to you, even though there's 12 pages of conversation attempting to explain the reasoning. If you don't want to understand it, fine, but it's not on everyone else to cater to you, either.

 

[sam_gordon]

I feel like we've moved beyond this particular instance in this conversation and are speaking generally, no?

And we've circled back around to how it's strange to you, even though there's 12 pages of conversation attempting to explain the reasoning. If you don't want to understand it, fine, but it's not on everyone else to cater to you, either.

There's two problem with the statement I bolded... first, why do you think I don't want to understand? I get that some people don't identify as male or female. It still seems strange to me, but I'm simply telling you how I feel. Which apparently it's OK for some to say how they feel, but not others.

And you're correct, it's not on everyone else to cater to me. BUT if I shouldn't expect everyone to cater to me, should others expect me to cater to them? Two way street, isn't it?

 

[skyblue17]

There's two problem with the statement I bolded... first, why do you think I don't want to understand? I get that some people don't identify as male or female. It still seems strange to me, but I'm simply telling you how I feel. Which apparently it's OK for some to say how they feel, but not others.

And you're correct, it's not on everyone else to cater to me. BUT if I shouldn't expect everyone to cater to me, should others expect me to cater to them? Two way street, isn't it?

I said that because multiple people have explained in this thread where the reasoning for this is coming from, and yet on Page 12, you reiterate how you think it's strange, multiple times. Are you not satisfied with the response you're getting, or do you just feel like you need to reiterate that? I can promise you that the people the change is referring to have been told they are strange plenty of times by people who don't know them. It comes across that you think your feelings about their existence (that doesn't affect you) matters more than their feelings that come from simply existing.

And sorry, but I am never going to think that catering to people who are not interested in moving along with the pace of the world is equal to making small changes to increase the comfort of people who are made to like they are too different or strange to be considered along with the rest.

 

[sam_gordon]

I said that because multiple people have explained in this thread where the reasoning for this is coming from, and yet on Page 12, you reiterate how you think it's strange, multiple times. Are you not satisfied with the response you're getting, or do you just feel like you need to reiterate that? I can promise you that the people the change is referring to have been told they are strange plenty of times by people who don't know them. It comes across that you think your feelings about their existence (that doesn't affect you) matters more than their feelings that come from simply existing.

If you want to take offense at words, feel free. Again, I'm saying how I feel. I'm being upfront and honest. You apparently don't like it. So either I shouldn't express how I feel or I shouldn't be honest, which would you prefer? If the former, please feel free to put me on ignore. If the latter, you also won't be satisfied.

And sorry, but I am never going to think that catering to people who are not interested in moving along with the pace of the world is equal to making small changes to increase the comfort of people who are made to like they are too different or strange to be considered along with the rest.

But didn't we determine that no one was uncomfortable by being addressed as "ladies and gentlemen"? Yes, I think it is STRANGE that someone would feel that that statement is not inclusive enough.

 

[skyblue17]

If you want to take offense at words, feel free. Again, I'm saying how I feel. I'm being upfront and honest. You apparently don't like it. So either I shouldn't express how I feel or I shouldn't be honest, which would you prefer? If the former, please feel free to put me on ignore. If the latter, you also won't be satisfied.


But didn't we determine that no one was uncomfortable by being addressed as "ladies and gentlemen"? Yes, I think it is STRANGE that someone would feel that that statement is not inclusive enough.

I am not offended by you, at this point, I'm just curious why you keep repeating yourself.

 

[DisneyKoyote]

I think Air Canada is only doing this to be "cool"/"woke" to appeal to today's society. To be honest, I doubt they really care about being inclusive- the only thing that moves them at the end of the day is MONEY. If most of their customers complained that they don't like the change and Air Canada somehow started losing revenue due to this, I guarantee that they'll find some reason to go back to "ladies and gentleman"

 

[ronandannette]

Well, I am hopping onboard this interesting post. This is my take, hopefully no one will be offended.

I was a flight attendant for 20 years. They changed our announcements from time to time, but "ladies and gentleman" was always included. I wouldn't have cared if it switched to everyone, I honestly do not think any flight attendant would've objected. And seriously, no one listens to us anyway so changing it really doesn't mean squat.

Let me preface, I am not saying that there isn't discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community, there certainly is. No denying that.

I honestly feel this really isn't about a change of words. It is a collective eye roll because of how hyper PC our society has become. Some changes have been very necessary, but others do have quite a few of us saying "really" with an eye roll. This is just another thing to be included into the huge ball of PC.

Some feel (including myself at times) that the PC world has watered us down to the point we feel we can't say anything without the fear of offending someone. And reading that "ladies and gentlemen" could have been a trigger phrase to offend and/or exclude, likely came as a surprise to many people.

We will learn and grow as a society, but imho sometimes we do go over the top with making everything so PC.

Very well said - thank you.

Come on, we all know how corporate America works. This decision took 4 years, 500 meetings, and 2,753 emails.

Maybe it works differently in corporate Canada? (Sorry...I couldn't resist. )

 

[VandVsmama]

I think Air Canada is only doing this to be "cool"/"woke" to appeal to today's society. To be honest, I doubt they really care about being inclusive- the only thing that moves them at the end of the day is MONEY. If most of their customers complained that they don't like the change and Air Canada somehow started losing revenue due to this, I guarantee that they'll find some reason to go back to "ladies and gentleman"

True. Besides, why did the airline see the need to have a formal announcement on it at all? It's not the sort of thing that is earth shattering news or even press release-worthy. They could have just started doing it without all the fanfare.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't think there is a gender-neutral term that has the same connotations as "ladies and gentlemen", but I think that's okay. "Good morning everyone", used in a professional setting, doesn't have a significantly more casual tone IMO, and comes without the gender-role baggage.



I agree that those terms imply a certain decorum and standard of behaviour... but those standards tend to be very gendered in ways I don't appreciate. I'm sure a lot of it comes from the fact that I was a tomboy and the only girl in my social circle and was constantly badgered to "act like a lady" when I wanted to be on the floor or out in the yard playing like the boys but couldn't because it wasn't appropriate to do so in a dress/skirt. And I'm probably more sensitive to it that some because my girls attend a school where girls have to wear skirts once a week (mass days) and are expected to avoid certain types of play on those days lest their skirts blow up - an expectation that would never be imposed on boys. You very seldom hear "act like a gentleman" used in disciplining children, but acting like a lady is still used to encourage girls to be quiet or demure.

Not sure where you are but here boys are told to act like gentlemen. And are raised to be gentlemen.

Dd acts like a lady and is a female professional wrestler. So no, it was not a way to stifle her athletic side or make her be quiet and demure.

As for the whole ladies and gentleman announcement: who cares? They can say “hello humans” and it would be fine. I think changing it for the tiny percent of people who do not identify with either is silly but hey, whatever. It’s not that I want to offend those few people or don’t care about their feelings it’s just this constant catering to a tiny minority, that probably doesn’t care one way or the other anyway, that gets to be tiring.

 

[carol48b]

There is nothing wrong with addressing and treating people in a way that you expect them to act. In high school we were called Mr or Miss because we were expected to act like adults in the class room.

This is rather archaic, but I have noticed that people tend to behave in the way they think that we expect them to behave. If you call them jerks, or slobs, they often act like that and try to punch you. ;-0 Same for wardrobe - women with dresses would seldom (there is always the exception) think of jumping on a motorcycle. Just an opinion and observation! BTW - nothing wrong with motorcycles, just using it as an example.

 

[skyblue17]

it’s just this constant catering to a tiny minority, that probably doesn’t care one way or the other anyway, that gets to be tiring.

Also tiring is being part of a minority and being told that you don't matter enough to be considered. No one objects when there's a bike rack outside of a store for the minority of people who ride bikes instead of drive cars. No one cares when there's a water bowl in a store for the tiny minority who bring their dogs into stores. No one complains when sugar free candy or dairy free milk is an option even though a small minority can't have sugar or dairy. It's a consideration, because being considerate doesn't actually take from anyone else. And sometimes it's just refreshing that someone took the time to consider more than the default. People are dismissive enough about it to think of it is as a "constant catering" rather than a "consideration" when I think most people would appreciate being considered if it were them.

 

[DisneyKoyote]

Also tiring is being part of a minority and being told that you don't matter enough to be considered. No one objects when there's a bike rack outside of a store for the minority of people who ride bikes instead of drive cars. No one cares when there's a water bowl in a store for the tiny minority who bring their dogs into stores.[...]

Off topic lol, but that's how I feel as an Asian living in the USA. Disney trying so hard replacing all their stories with other minorities (Cinderella, Little Mermaid, etc). What about us?? But weirdly enough, I actually never noticed/realized that we weren't being considered until recently with all the minority pandering (cause we still weren't being pandered to lol).

And...I actually hated Crazy, Rich, Asians lollll...guess I can't be pleased.

 

[Hikergirl]

We will, and things that may seem "over the top" as too PC now may be seen as things that were obviously oversights years from now, much like if we look back to other eras of time.

I personally am fine with people asking genuine questions as to why, but it bothers me when I people dismiss efforts to be more inclusive because it might mean a little more work for them. We're all works in progress. I can confidently say that my views have evolved a lot as I experienced more and met more people. I'm grateful for that, but I do recognize that not everyone has that experience and not everyone is going to be realize the effect that microaggressions can have when they add up over time, especially if they aren't familiar with what they are. So I see articles like this to serve as a reminder to be more mindful. If you don't agree, don't do it. We all choose how we represent ourselves to the world.

If after all the comments in this thread that is your conclusion then you aren't listening.