"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[kerry1379]

First I would like to thank y'all. I have appreciated this thread because I have learned a lot. And it has made me think and I THINK that I have boiled down my confusion to a particular question that I am hoping I may ask here. I do not ask it with sarcasm but am completely genuine in trying to understand. I hope I don't offend anyone but if I do, I apologize.

I guess my confusion with gender fluidity and nonbinary boils down to this, what does it mean to "identify with?" A PP said that gender, not sex, is a social construct. Ok, I can get that. But though I am a female, not everything I do falls into a female stereotype. I like to wear dresses on occasion but mostly like to wear pants. Sometimes I am emotional but often times I face decision making and arguments with a very logical "get the problem solved" type of approach. Though I love to read, I always did way better in school with math and science than with english and social studies. And then there are the things I do that aren't stereotypical male or female but just are, like tying my shoes, and eating breakfast. I would say that a good part of what I do I wouldn't assign to the way society looks at male or female but is rather just ME. I always assumed that most people are the same way. There are what, roughly 7 billion people not this planet and therefore I would guess that there are roughly 7 billion ways to be a female or a male since absolutely no one fits all the stereotypes. We all are individual and do things differently than others. I guess I don't know how to ask this in any other way but bluntly, but is gender fluidity and nonbinary simply another way to say that some people don't want to be stereotyped? Or is there more that I am not understanding?

Sorry for the long question and if you read it all the way through-thank you!

 

[Drasticq]

I always make liberal use of the terms "sir" and "ma'am" at work.

 

[skyblue17]

If after all the comments in this thread that is your conclusion then you aren't listening.

And if that's all you've taken out of everything I've said in this thread, you're missing a lot.

 

[Hikergirl]

And if that's all you've taken out of everything I've said in this thread, you're missing a lot.

Well you yourself said that is what bothers you. Posters have said exactly why but you choose to be bothered by something that not one single poster said or implied.

So yes, you clearly aren't listening and you are assigning your own reason as to why people are dismissive of efforts like what the OP is about.
That isn't all I've gotten out of all of your posts, but it is one thing quoted directly from one of your posts

 

[skyblue17]

Well you yourself said that is what bothers you. Posters have said exactly why but you choose to be bothered by something that not one single poster said or implied.

So yes, you clearly aren't listening and you are assigning your own reason as to why people are dismissive of efforts like what the OP is about.
That isn't all I've gotten out of all of your posts, but it is one thing quoted directly from one of your posts

I'm speaking generally, because this conversation has opened up to be wider than it was originally. I'm not speaking specifically of anyone in this thread, though there have been a few responses that made me think that it's possible some here do feel that way.

You also called me intolerant before because you assigned meaning to a response of mine that I didn't even say or was thinking, so if you're going to accuse me of assigning meaning to other people's posts, at least consider that you do the same.

 

[Karlrob]

As a teacher, I feel the use of ladies and gentlemen may help them to remember to act like ladies and gentlemen - not a bad thing.

 

[Hikergirl]

I'm speaking generally, because this conversation has opened up to be wider than it was originally. I'm not speaking specifically of anyone in this thread, though there have been a few responses that made me think that it's possible some here do feel that way.

You also called me intolerant before because you assigned meaning to a response of mine that I didn't even say or was thinking, so if you're going to accuse me of assigning meaning to other people's posts, at least consider that you do the same.

What you said to that pp came across as pretty intolerant. I don't recall the exact wording but they basically stated the way in which they were raising their children to be ladylike and gentlmently - you told them that maybe they should just do something different and "be done with it"
That sounded a lot like you not accepting their ways because it doesn't fit your view of how children should be raised to behave.



As far as you speaking generally, fair enough. I do wonder though how many times you come across people in general that are dismissive because it involves extra work for them. It's a pretty petty reason for sure, but I would think that there is probably much more to it that maybe they just don't want to share with you.

 

[skyblue17]

What you said to that pp came across as pretty intolerant. I don't recall the exact wording but they basically stated the way in which they were raising their children to be ladylike and gentlmently - you told them that maybe they should just do something different and "be done with it"
That sounded a lot like you not accepting their ways because it doesn't fit your view of how children should be raised to behave.



As far as you speaking generally, fair enough. I do wonder though how many times you come across people in general that are dismissive because it involves extra work for them. It's a pretty petty reason for sure, but I would think that there is probably much more to it that maybe they just don't want to share with you.

That isn't what I was saying AT ALL. I even clarified for you what I did mean, yet here you are doubling down on me being intolerant. Raising kind children is fantastic! That is genuinely ALL that matters to me. You somehow decided that me saying "good people" meant I was opposing how someone raises their children. I wasn't raised gender neutral, no one I know was raised gender neutral and you somehow decided that is what I meant. I was focusing on good people because I don't find "lady" or "gentleman" to necessarily represent the qualities some assign to those terms. Yeesh.

And honestly, throwing around the word "intolerant" for a different of opinion is pretty extreme, should that HAVE been what I was referring to.

 

[Moliphino]

First I would like to thank y'all. I have appreciated this thread because I have learned a lot. And it has made me think and I THINK that I have boiled down my confusion to a particular question that I am hoping I may ask here. I do not ask it with sarcasm but am completely genuine in trying to understand. I hope I don't offend anyone but if I do, I apologize.

I guess my confusion with gender fluidity and nonbinary boils down to this, what does it mean to "identify with?" A PP said that gender, not sex, is a social construct. Ok, I can get that. But though I am a female, not everything I do falls into a female stereotype. I like to wear dresses on occasion but mostly like to wear pants. Sometimes I am emotional but often times I face decision making and arguments with a very logical "get the problem solved" type of approach. Though I love to read, I always did way better in school with math and science than with english and social studies. And then there are the things I do that aren't stereotypical male or female but just are, like tying my shoes, and eating breakfast. I would say that a good part of what I do I wouldn't assign to the way society looks at male or female but is rather just ME. I always assumed that most people are the same way. There are what, roughly 7 billion people not this planet and therefore I would guess that there are roughly 7 billion ways to be a female or a male since absolutely no one fits all the stereotypes. We all are individual and do things differently than others. I guess I don't know how to ask this in any other way but bluntly, but is gender fluidity and nonbinary simply another way to say that some people don't want to be stereotyped? Or is there more that I am not understanding?

Sorry for the long question and if you read it all the way through-thank you!

I've had many of those same thoughts myself and I don't understand it all either. So I just go with listening and trying to be kind. It makes no difference to me what pronouns I call you, so if you have a preference I'll go with that.

 

[tzolkin]

This is rather archaic, but I have noticed that people tend to behave in the way they think that we expect them to behave. If you call them jerks, or slobs, they often act like that and try to punch you. ;-0 Same for wardrobe - women with dresses would seldom (there is always the exception) think of jumping on a motorcycle. Just an opinion and observation! BTW - nothing wrong with motorcycles, just using it as an example.

Totally going off topic, but in some places it’s the norm for “ladies” in dresses to hop on a motorcycle. I travel frequently to Rwanda. Their culture values much more formal attire than in the US. (Most men wouldn’t dream of being caught in shorts or a T-shirt) But motorcycle taxis are the predominant form of transportation. So you will see countless women in business attire/skirts on the back of a motorcycle.

I do agree with you that it would be highly uncommon in the US, but I think we also tend to have different views and stereotypes about motorcycle riders that play into the idea of it being “un-ladylike”.

 

[Kellydelly]

I work in a hospital and just did an education module on all the new gender identity nonsense that is our new reality. I was confused and mostly what I got out of it is I am no longer considered heterosexual and patients can have their name on their id bracelet in any form they prefer. Whatever. The whole pronoun issue just boggles my mind. I just plan to be respectful and live my own life.

 

[porschegrl]

mostly what I got out of it is I am no longer considered heterosexual

I'm curious about this. Can you expand on it?

I just plan to be respectful and live my own life.

Generally speaking, I think we all agree this is a good rule to live by. It would be great if we could focus more on where we agree and build from there.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

So if I say, "YO PEEPS!" instead, are the marshmallows going to be offended?

 

[BlueStarryHat]

I work in a hospital and just did an education module on all the new gender identity nonsense that is our new reality. I was confused and mostly what I got out of it is I am no longer considered heterosexual and patients can have their name on their id bracelet in any form they prefer. Whatever. The whole pronoun issue just boggles my mind. I just plan to be respectful and live my own life.

Nonsense to you, important inclusion to others. I would genuinely like you to expound a bit on why your opinion is it's nonsense.

 

[seashoreCM]

Boston talk radio host Bill Kelly often said "Ladies and Gentlemen" to refer to his listeners during his show. Interspersed with retirement financial advice were recollections of his growing up years. He passed on a few years ago and you can optionally consider that symbolic with "Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming outdated. Meanwhile every now and then the new host plays a short clip of Bill from an earlier show, complete with a "Ladies and Gentlemen" or two. I do not recall Bill's qualifying what he said using additional words or pronouns to be more inclusive of other genders or identities.

Suggested reading (if you can find it): Bailey Brook Farm

 

[DisneyOma]

As a teacher, I feel the use of ladies and gentlemen may help them to remember to act like ladies and gentlemen - not a bad thing.

Why would they have to conform to your normality? What does behaving appropriately have to do with a lady or a gentleman? I hope the gender neutral and gender fluid kids in your class are confident enough to speak up and ask you why you are trying to alienate them?

 

[DisneyOma]

I work in a hospital and just did an education module on all the new gender identity nonsense that is our new reality. I was confused and mostly what I got out of it is I am no longer considered heterosexual and patients can have their name on their id bracelet in any form they prefer. Whatever. The whole pronoun issue just boggles my mind. I just plan to be respectful and live my own life.

You could start by not calling it nonsense <3

 

[sam_gordon]

Why would they have to conform to your normality? What does behaving appropriately have to do with a lady or a gentleman? I hope the gender neutral and gender fluid kids in your class are confident enough to speak up and ask you why you are trying to alienate them?

Maybe because she's the teacher? To me, "acting like ladies and gentlemen" has ZERO to do with gender OR sex. It has to do with being polite to each other, and respecting those you are with. Or should gender neutral/fluid children be allowed to act like hellions since they don't identify as Male or female?

 

[luvsJack]

Also tiring is being part of a minority and being told that you don't matter enough to be considered. No one objects when there's a bike rack outside of a store for the minority of people who ride bikes instead of drive cars. No one cares when there's a water bowl in a store for the tiny minority who bring their dogs into stores. No one complains when sugar free candy or dairy free milk is an option even though a small minority can't have sugar or dairy. It's a consideration, because being considerate doesn't actually take from anyone else. And sometimes it's just refreshing that someone took the time to consider more than the default. People are dismissive enough about it to think of it is as a "constant catering" rather than a "consideration" when I think most people would appreciate being considered if it were them.

Were you or anyone you know offended by the use of “ladies and gentlemen”?

I don’t know how you identify and I don’t care. You are a human being and that’s all I need to know. That is what makes you matter enough to be considered.

Just my opinion, but how about we just treat all human beings as human beings and quit worrying about who identifies as what?

I don’t care what they say on the airline. Nor do I care if anyone ever uses the term again. But this constant having to stop and think about every tiny little word tiring and most of the time the one who is supposed to be offended isn’t. It’s someone else that decides they should be.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Maybe because she's the teacher? To me, "acting like ladies and gentlemen" has ZERO to do with gender OR sex. It has to do with being polite to each other, and respecting those you are with. Or should gender neutral/fluid children be allowed to act like hellions since they don't identify as Male or female?

I can see what you're saying - any kid in the class can choose on any given day whether they want to act like a lady or a gentleman, as long they're not acting like a hellion.

But, to avoid the subject all together, many teachers lately have been using terms based on the students' year in school or the subject we're studying right then - like "3rd graders" or "mathematicians" or "readers".

(I actually find it keeps them on their toes if I switch it up.)