M&G etiquette

[Shanti]

X = X. It always has and always will. No matter what scenario you want to offer up for the family's behavior once they get to the front of the line and interact with the character--(picture with just the kids. Now the kids and grandma. Now the kids and the parents. Now just grandma. And on and on); that behavior is a "constant" and is not impacted by whether the kids and grandma waited in line or not. If a family is going to spend 8 minutes with a character after having some of them wait in line, that same family is going to take 8 minutes with a character after having all of them wait in line. 8 minutes = 8 minutes. The act of waiting in line, (or not), does not alter the family's behavior once they get to the character to take photos.

The wait time is changed when people have to wait in line instead of people cutting in and out, because many of the people who insist on cutting in and out simply won't wait if they can't cut in and out. Letting people cut in and out opens the character line up to more people, people who don't care enough to wait in a long line for that character. So the wait is longer for those who do care enough to wait.

 

[ArwenMarie]

They should do return tickets when the lines are this long.

 

[Disneylover99]

I visit Disney solo. Who will hold my place so I can go ride BTMRR and HM while I am "in line" for meeting Jack and Sally?

Me! I'd save someone's spot in line.
Strike up a conversation with the people around you. I'd bet someone would be willing to help you out.

 

[999_Happy_Haunts]

The wait time is changed when people have to wait in line instead of people cutting in and out, because many of the people who insist on cutting in and out simply won't wait if they can't cut in and out. Letting people cut in and out opens the character line up to more people, people who don't care enough to wait in a long line for that character. So the wait is longer for those who do care enough to wait.

Not when that process is the norm. How has the updated Dumbo process changed that attraction's popularity?

 

[Disneylover99]

The wait time is changed when people have to wait in line instead of people cutting in and out, because many of the people who insist on cutting in and out simply won't wait if they can't cut in and out. Letting people cut in and out opens the character line up to more people, people who don't care enough to wait in a long line for that character. So the wait is longer for those who do care enough to wait.

But if the lines got shorter because you weeded out those in and out people, others who don't mind waiting but wouldn't normally consider meeting characters might now jump into these lines thinking the lines look reasonable. There will always be people to take their place, so the actual wait might not be less. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[djc9699]

I don't have a real opinion on this other than if all those people are not waiting in line for the M&Gs then my wait for Big Thunder or Jingle Cruise might be longer.
So meet more characters. I personally would not do this with my family (have a placeholder) but I don't care what any other family does. In all my trips, I have only seen a handful of blatantly rude guests. Most people I have seen respond to kindness and grace with returned kindness and grace.

 

[AngiTN]

But if the lines got shorter because you weeded out those in and out people, others who don't mind waiting but wouldn't normally consider meeting characters might now jump into these lines thinking the lines look reasonable. There will always be people to take their place, so the actual wait might not be less. It's a vicious cycle.

What's the saying, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Everything seems to even out in the end

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

Not when that process is the norm. How has the updated Dumbo process changed that attraction's popularity?

But it isn't the norm. Not for character M&G. It is a few people that just can't seem to wait in the line.

If Disney changes it, then everyone getting in line would know that the number of people standing in line have absolutely no bearing on how many people are actually in line. Until that time, people that cut in line, are actually cutting in line.

 

[momof2n2]

It's the same wait time because X=X. Let's assume a situation where everyone must wait in line. You get in line and there are 200 people in front of you. You have no way of knowing if that is a single group of 200; if it is two groups of 100; four groups of 50; 50 groups of 4; 100 groups of 2; or 200 solo travelers. (Incidentally, this unknown pokes a huge hole in the argument that some are making here that they want everyone to be in line so that they can better judge the length of the line. Because we are talking about character photo ops, you have no clue how long the line actually is, because you have no way of knowing how many "groups" are in front of you. You only know how many "people" are in front of you and that doesn't tell you much at a M&G. This isn't Space Mountain.)
So everyone stays in line. Turns out that the 200 people in front of you are actually 20 groups of 10 people each. Your wait time is going to be the amount of time it takes for the photographer to work her way through all of the photos that this group reasonably wants. You have no idea what that will be as you wait in line. But let's say it takes 7 minutes per group for a total of 140 minutes. X=140.

Now lets say that you arrive in line that uses placeholders. When you arrive there are 20 people in front of you. You have no way of knowing if that represents 20 placeholders holding spots for groups of 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or more people. When it is the first person in line's turn to go, 9 more people join him to form a group of 10. They take 7 minutes to complete the M&G. Then it is time for the next person in line to go. She is joined by 9 more people to form a group of 10. That group takes 7 minutes. And this process repeats for all 20 people in front of you. Each person is joined by 9 other people to form groups of 10, and each group takes 7 minutes. Total time is 140 minutes. 140=X. So it doesn't matter if all 200 people stood in front of you or only 20 people stood in front of you. Either way, your wait time is 140 minutes. And in neither scenario could you have guessed that.

What people seem to be arguing is that: "Gee. If I saw a line that had 20 people in it, I would have thought that my wait time would be shorter than if I saw a line that had 200 people in it." But that fails for at least 2 reasons. First, unless you know how large each group is, you have no way of knowing how long your wait will be. A line that has 4 groups of 50 people (200 people total) will move faster than a line that has 20 solo travelers in it. (And if not faster, certainly not appreciably slower.) And when you join the line, you just don't know. The second reason why this assumption fails is that it assumes ignorance of the process on the part of the person joining the line. In the real world, this ignorance would vanish. You would get in a short line of 20 people and a CM or the person in front of you, or the person behind you would probably say something like: "Don't get too excited. These are only the placeholders in line. There are actually a lot more people in this virtual line than it appears. Oh, and by the way. Feel free to use a placeholder yourself. No reason why you shouldn't get the same benefit." Once the process is made known to you, the situation becomes clear and any "perception" of a short line goes away. Just like walking into the Dumbo tent. At first blush it might look like you could walk right on. But then you learn about how the system works and you realize that even though you cannot see a line, you will not be getting on the ride for 30 more minutes.


While the actual time for each group to finish can vary, and yes, larger groups can take more time, the time difference is not meaningful. And besides, even if a larger group takes more time, when you divide that time up among the people in the group, it can turn out to be a shorter wait. In other words. If there are 8 people in line all of whom are couples, and each couple takes 2 minutes with the character, the total time is 4 couples x 2 minutes, or 8 minutes. That works out to 1 minute per person. But if a group of 8 people takes 4 minutes to process, then the total time for 8 people to be processed is 30 seconds per person. (8 people processed in 4 minutes.) You are better off being behind a group of 8 than you are being behind 4 groups of 2. People seem to want to use "big groups" as an upsetting factor here, but in reality, the bigger the group, the better.

Thank you for taking the time to explain what only frustrates me and makes me roll my eyes!!!!!!!

 

[999_Happy_Haunts]

Until that time, people that cut in line, are actually cutting in line.

You are ignoring the restaurant and movie theater analogies. When dad waits alone in line to buy tickets at the theater for his family of 7, and the other 6 people join up with him at the point of entry where the ticket taker rips the tickets, NO ONE considers that to be cutting in line. When mom waits in line at Cheesecake Factory to put her group's name on the wait list while the rest of the family hangs around outside, no one considers it to be line cutting when it is their time to be seated. There are no rules to this effect in either instance. But it is the norm. Why? Because GROUP DYNAMICS function differently than individual dynamics and a character M&G is a group dynamic.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You are ignoring the restaurant and movie theater analogies. When dad waits alone in line to buy tickets at the theater for his family of 7, and the other 6 people join up with him at the point of entry where the ticket taker rips the tickets, NO ONE considers that to be cutting in line. When mom waits in line at Cheesecake Factory to put her group's name on the wait list while the rest of the family hangs around outside, no one considers it to be line cutting when it is their time to be seated. There are no rules to this effect in either instance. But it is the norm. Why? Because GROUP DYNAMICS function differently than individual dynamics and a character M&G is a group dynamic.

I will say though norms and customs vary and evolve over time. Not everything can and should be used to try and prove a point with something not considered the norm for M&G.

I do understand where you are coming from and the point you are trying to convey but I also do understand where others are coming from and the point they are trying to convey.

If the norm and custom was one person is always a placeholder then the conversation would be different (probably along the lines of "I don't like how this is the way this is done"). At this time with M&Gs there isn't a norm or custom it's just some people do use a place holder while others do not. If the CMs said "please only 1 or 2 people in line" to condense the line I could understand that...but they would need to say that and be consistent with that and then people who have their whole family in line would then be the outliers.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

I will say though norms and customs vary and evolve over time. Not everything can and should be used to try and prove a point with something not considered the norm for M&G.

I do understand where you are coming from and the point you are trying to convey but I also do understand where others are coming from and the point they are trying to convey.

If the norm and custom was one person is always a placeholder then the conversation would be different (probably along the lines of "I don't like how this is the way this is done"). At this time with M&Gs there isn't a norm or custom it's just some people do use a place holder while others do not. If the CMs said "please only 1 or 2 people in line" to condense the line I could understand that...but they would need to say that and be consistent with that and then people who have their whole family in line would then be the outliers.

Exactly. Having just a placeholder in line when putting your name in to wait for a table, is the norm. Buying tickets for a group, using just one person, is the norm.

At this time, at Disney, during meet and greets, it is not the norm. People may want to do this. People may try to do this. And it might even work sometimes. But since, at times, Disney posts a cast member telling guests to not do this, it is against policy. No, you won't be arrested. No, you probably won't be kicked out of the park. And yes, you might get away with it. But just like speeding on the highway, you could end up being stopped. On the highway, you might get a ticket. At Disney, you might be sent to the end of the line.

I just don't get the attitude of getting away with whatever you can. Back when people would book a bunch of dining reservations, or when people used SDFP, I didn't get it. I also don't get people trying to cut into line.

 

[MickeyWaffles]

You are ignoring the restaurant and movie theater analogies. When dad waits alone in line to buy tickets at the theater for his family of 7, and the other 6 people join up with him at the point of entry where the ticket taker rips the tickets, NO ONE considers that to be cutting in line. When mom waits in line at Cheesecake Factory to put her group's name on the wait list while the rest of the family hangs around outside, no one considers it to be line cutting when it is their time to be seated. There are no rules to this effect in either instance. But it is the norm. Why? Because GROUP DYNAMICS function differently than individual dynamics and a character M&G is a group dynamic.

In that case, what about a group at Princess Fairytale Hall? Let's say the next Anna/Elsa-caliber princess comes out. Hours long wait. Would it be acceptable to send a placeholder in? I don't think that is current acceptable practice and people would feel that was cutting in line. I don't equate that to a movie theater line. Is it because that's not the norm at Princess Fairytale Hall? Well, how did it become the norm for special characters outside?

There are two different norms for regular vs special meet and greets? This is where I get confused. They're both meet and greets. It sounds like the only reason people think it's ok to placehold at the special ones is because the lines are really long, outside, open and not enclosed and you don't have to push past people to get to your party.

I am definitely still on the "anti-placeholding unless Disney says otherwise" side but am truly trying to understand the other perspective better.

At first I thought I would be bothered if I saw this in line but after hearing different perspectives it wouldn't bother me as much. I don't let much bother me at WDW anyways and am usually too busy having fun to truly care what other people are doing. I was flat out skipped in the confectionery line a couple weeks ago and didn't even know until DH told me. We don't say anything and just move on.

Until there's an official ruling from Disney on this, I think it's a gray area and both sides have a right to an opinion.

 

[AndreaA]

In that case, what about a group at Princess Fairytale Hall? Let's say the next Anna/Elsa-caliber princess comes out. Hours long wait. Would it be acceptable to send a placeholder in? I don't think that is current acceptable practice and people would feel that was cutting in line. I don't equate that to a movie theater line. Is it because that's not the norm at Princess Fairytale Hall? Well, how did it become the norm for special characters outside?

There are two different norms for regular vs special meet and greets? This is where I get confused. They're both meet and greets. It sounds like the only reason people think it's ok to placehold at the special ones is because the lines are really long, outside, open and not enclosed and you don't have to push past people to get to your party.

I am definitely still on the "anti-placeholding unless Disney says otherwise" side but am truly trying to understand the other perspective better.

At first I thought I would be bothered if I saw this in line but after hearing different perspectives it wouldn't bother me as much. I don't let much bother me at WDW anyways and am usually to busy having fun to truly care what other people are doing. I was flat out skipped in the confectionery line a couple weeks ago and didn't even know until DH told me. We don't say anything and just move on.

Until there's an official ruling from Disney on this, I think it's a gray area and both sides have a right to an opinion.

Back when Anna and Elsa first started meeting at MK and it was a totally crazy wait by 9:05, I know I heard many stories of people place holding, at least while the line was outside (basically, the party would regroup once they were getting into the building) and that seems reasonable to me.

I think one thing everyone on the anti-placeholder side is ignoring is the fact that while many of us think place holding is fine in theory, in practice it simply is not done by everyone, so chances of it affecting you are extremely small. Most families with kids over ten or so and no one with a DAS, are just going to wait. MAYBE someone will run to the bathroom or to get food or drinks, but no lengthy absences. Couples and groups of adults? Same thing. So we're talking about the relatively small group of people with young kids who are interested enough in a special party character that one of their parents is willing to give up party time standing in line. I've been to several parties now and I don't EVER remember being passed by anyone going to join up with their family. Granted, we only wait for the less-crowded characters because, you guessed it, I'm not willing to stand in a long line or subject my spouse to standing in a long line when we could be doing other things. So yeah, number of placeholders in your average line? I'm going to say it's a very small number.

 

[999_Happy_Haunts]

In that case, what about a group at Princess Fairytale Hall?

It's been stated many times on this thread that this discussion pertains only to outdoor lines where no one has to push or shove their way to the front. It simply does not work for indoor lines.

Back when Anna and Elsa first started meeting at MK and it was a totally crazy wait by 9:05, I know I heard many stories of people place holding, at least while the line was outside (basically, the party would regroup once they were getting into the building) and that seems reasonable to me.

Not only were there many stories about it, but the CMs actively promoted the idea. Norway was not built to hold the crowds that were gathering and it became unmanageable to have everyone wait in line. The square footage of the area simply could not contain the crowd.

So CMs specifically told families/groups to use a placeholder system. Believe it or not, the world did not stop spinning on its axis. And so, (and not to be sexist, but this is how it largely played out) it became a "thing" to be a "Frozen Dad" who was tasked with sprinting to Norway while the rest of the family caught up later.

 

[MickeyWaffles]

It's been stated many times on this thread that this discussion pertains only to outdoor lines where no one has to push or shove their way to the front. It simply does not work for indoor lines.


Not only were there many stories about it, but the CMs actively promoted the idea. Norway was not built to hold the crowds that were gathering and it became unmanageable to have everyone wait in line. The square footage of the area simply could not contain the crowd.

So CMs specifically told families/groups to use a placeholder system. Believe it or not, the world did not stop spinning on its axis. And so, (and not to be sexist, but this is how it largely played out) it became a "thing" to be a "Frozen Dad" who was tasked with sprinting to Norway while the rest of the family caught up later.

I've read and followed the whole thread. The reason I asked was because I think it is interesting that placeholding is a practice acceptable in one instance and unacceptable in another when the end game is the same. In fact, in my post, i reiterated that it sounded like the only reason for the difference was indoor vs. outdoor. Wanted to confirm that it is considered ok in one instance because you can do it easily and not ok in the other because you can't easily even though in both cases a group is meeting with character. There aren't reasons beyond that.

Thanks for the added info about A&E. Very interesting that they encouraged it for crowd management - A&E moved to Epcot in between our trips so we never dealt with those crowds (I also wouldn't expect the world would stop spinning on its axis in any scenario. ETA: It's not that big of a deal. Over the course of this thread, I have become more open to the idea of placeholding since it's a gray area, while I probably wouldn't do it. I'm not the line police or anything! )

 

[snowybelle]

Here's what I don't like about place holding...

If there's a 2 hour wait to meet a character, and your entire party MUST be line the whole time (no place holding allowed), only the people who REALLY want to see that character are going choose to wait it out. Those who would only be willing to send a "placeholder" (i.e. share the burden by trading off) may be deterred by a strictly enforced "No Place Holding" policy... because that makes waiting in a long line less appealing, and the wait time may actually decrease because fewer people are willing to do the long haul wait, and the line gets shorter for everyone.

Whereas if it is a placeholder free-for-all (which it often is), guests with multiple people in their party can just trade off their placeholder, take turns holding down the fort while the others eat/play/etc, no big deal for them if the line is 2 or 3 hours or more, because they can share the load. In that case, fewer people are deterred by the long wait because they can work around it, the line gets LONGER and the overall wait time increases for everyone.

As a frequent solo Disney traveler, I often don't have the luxury of taking turns with someone else, so it's all or nothing for me. I have to make a hard choice about character vs. rides and commit to it, because I can't have it both ways.

Now, to be perfectly honest, it doesn't actually bother me all that much and I don't have any major beef with people who are taking advantage of Disney not policing the lines -- and I certainly don't begrudge anyone (of any age) a trip to the restroom. It doesn't ruin my day or even make me bat an eye.

But I do think there's an argument to be made that flagrant place holding COULD be increasing wait times overall... and I guess if I had my preference I wish people wouldn't do the whole "have my cake and eat it too" thing.

 

[DisneyHardin]

But let's be honest here, you have to admit that sometimes these discussions are completely blown out of proportion and are taken way too seriously. Just like (insert age) is too big for a stroller! Double strollers are the devil! Or the rider swap pass is cheating! Or the South American tour groups will ruin your trip with all the chanting! It gets to be pretty ridiculous after a while. This board had me scared to death of our January trip that the fifteens were going to be constantly line jumping and chanting the whole time. When the truth was that we hardly even noticed them. And when we did notice them, it was because my dd4 wanted one of their matching backpacks. They were super well behaved and courteous. So that's what I'm trying to comment on is for the op who asked the question, or for anyone else who may come across this thread- that while opinions of this will vary, if you are respectful about it, people won't even notice if you leave a M&G line at a party and come back for whatever reason. Most people will be too busy enjoying their own vacation to be bothered.

This is so true. We went "Jersey Week" a couple years ago and I was worried sick that the crowds were going to be unbearable the way people talked about it on this board. Crowds were great - much less crowded than the year before when we went the first week of October.

 

[no one]

I am by no means active on the board or visit WDW often. But I have seen variations of this thread play out before, by being a lurker for my prior trip and getting for my next trip in April. It is interesting to see the different viewpoints. I have no stake in this one way or the other.
But my question for some of the veterans here. Do you think some of this comes down to the people who visit the park a lot (ie multiple times a year) versus the people who may be coming for only there one visit of a lifetime, or very limited visits? Because I can see the people who visit multiple times expect the same procedures to be followed since that is how it is always done. But I can also see people who are there for their only visit of a lifetime thinking that they should maximize every moment at the park which may require a placeholder for these types of events. Just curious. And by no means trying to cause a fight. Just something that popped into my head as I read some of the posts (did not read the whole thread).

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

I am by no means active on the board or visit WDW often. But I have seen variations of this thread play out before, by being a lurker for my prior trip and getting for my next trip in April. It is interesting to see the different viewpoints. I have no stake in this one way or the other.
But my question for some of the veterans here. Do you think some of this comes down to the people who visit the park a lot (ie multiple times a year) versus the people who may be coming for only there one visit of a lifetime, or very limited visits? Because I can see the people who visit multiple times expect the same procedures to be followed since that is how it is always done. But I can also see people who are there for their only visit of a lifetime thinking that they should maximize every moment at the park which may require a placeholder for these types of events. Just curious. And by no means trying to cause a fight. Just something that popped into my head as I read some of the posts (did not read the whole thread).

I am a DVC owner, annual passholder. In other words, not a once in a lifetime visitor.

And I am against place holder, or as I call it, cutting the line.