Multi-Site POS Revision Dated 01/19/19

History teaches us that major changes often have unintentional consequences. So we have the new restrictions. Most believe this is going to negatively effect resale values. Now I am not an investor and do not have the energy to do the math, but if the resale values are low enough is this not inviting purchase for investment purposes only? I see the going rent for points is right around $16-$18 a point. Could DDR end up being more due to the SWGE/Gondolas? Could DDR in the long run end up being a complete rental property? Yes, what a mess this could end up being.
 
History teaches us that major changes often have unintentional consequences. So we have the new restrictions. Most believe this is going to negatively effect resale values. Now I am not an investor and do not have the energy to do the math, but if the resale values are low enough is this not inviting purchase for investment purposes only? I see the going rent for points is right around $16-$18 a point. Could DDR end up being more due to the SWGE/Gondolas? Could DDR in the long run end up being a complete rental property? Yes, what a mess this could end up being.

I guess there is always a chance of that or risk depends how you see it. With the current rules Disney you are allowed somewhere around 20 rentals per year - dont know if that is per membership or per member but I guess Disney could try and restrict that even more.
 
Yes, and there is the rub. So now Disney will implement more restrictions to deal with the issue of private investors making money off their product and turning their Deluxe resort into a rental cash cow-with unintended consequences. I cannot get my mind around this. Disney had the Goose laying the Golden Eggs. Now, more and more this is just another Time Share. What a shame.
 
Yes, and there is the rub. So now Disney will implement more restrictions to deal with the issue of private investors making money off their product and turning their Deluxe resort into a rental cash cow-with unintended consequences. I cannot get my mind around this. Disney had the Goose laying the Golden Eggs. Now, more and more this is just another Time Share. What a shame.

But they think it will continue laying the golden egg. They think their value prop of "on property at Disney" can overcome any restriction... and as they've said "hey, we can change it if it's not working." And, yep, they sure can - apparently.
 


I provided before reasons why I believe both purchasers from DVD and resale purchasers must all have a right to use the DVC Reservation Component to reserve any DVC Resort, including one added to that component operated by BVTC, and thus Disney either has to remove Riviera from the Disney Vacation Club entirely or drop the stated resale restrictions. I am adding now another reason. It appears the restrictions violate Fl Stats §718.110(4).

Summarizing what I have noted before based on the BWV documents: the declarations provide: (a) that every owner and Club Member, which includes all resale purchasers, shall be entitled to use the services and benefits provided by the Disney Vacation Club; (b) the two main services and benefits provided by the Club are the Home Resort Reservation Component and the DVC Reservation Component; (c) the members have a right, after the home resort reservation priority period ends, to use the DVC Reservation Component to reserve, on a first come, first served basis, any rooms at any DVC Resort other than the one they own; (d) a DVC Resort is defined as any resort that is given the right to access the DVC Reservation Component. Club Membership is deemed an “appurtenance” to the ownership interest in the unit that is part of the real property which automatically transfers to any resale purchaser via deed. The multi-site POS also provides that all Club Members, which includes resale purchasers, have a right to use the DVC Reservation Component to reserve any DVC Resort. Finally, the DVC Resort Agreement has the association transferring to BVTC the obligation to run the DVC Reservation Component to take reservations for any DVC resort from Club Members (which includes resale purchasers) and to act in the best interests of such members when adding any new DVC Resort.

Despite the above, DVD has added Riviera to the DVC Reservation Component as a DVC Resort with the resale restrictions via a supposed DVC Resort Agreement for Riviera with BVTC that contains the new resale restrictions, even though BVTC, under the BWV (and other) DVC Resort Agreements, can add a new DVC resort only via a DVC Resort Agreement whose terms are substantially similar in all material respects to the BWV DVC Resort Agreement.

So now for a new point. It results from the appurtenance requirement. An appurtenance is, by definition in the real estate world, either a tangible real property right , e.g., ownership of a parking space, or intangible right, e.g., such as an easement, right of way, or right to use something considered part of the real property. Fl Stats §718.110(4), which deals with amendments to declarations for any condominium development (which includes the DVC resorts), provides:

“Unless otherwise provided in the declarations as originally recorded, no amendment may change the configuration or size of any unit in any material fashion, materially alter or modify the appurtenances to the unit, or change the proportion or percentage by which the unit owner shares the common expenses of the condominium and owns the common surplus of the condominium unless the record owner of the unit and all record owners of liens on the unit join in the execution of the amendment and unless all the record owners of all other units in the same condominium approve the amendment. The acquisition of property by the association and material alterations or substantial additions to such property or the common elements by the association in accordance with s. 718.111 (7) or s. 718.113, and amendments providing for the transfer of use rights in limited common elements pursuant to s. 718.106 (2)(b) shall not be deemed to constitute a material alteration or modification of the appurtenances to the units. A declaration recorded after April 1, 1992, may not require the approval of less than a majority of total voting interests of the condominium for amendments under this subsection, unless otherwise required by a governmental entity.”

Thus, it provides that there can be no amendment to the declarations that materially alters or modifies an appurtenance absent a unanimous vote of all the owners of the condominium resort.

Case law on this section has also determined some issues. The statute means no material alterations to appurtenances can be done except as provided in this section, i.e., it requires an amendment to the declarations and a unaminous vote of the owners to change any appurtenance rights, and the association cannot claim it can rely on some other modification provision in a different document to make the change, see Tower House Condo. Assoc. v. Millman, 410 So. 2d 926 (3d Dis.1981)(association could not use appropriations provisions in by-laws to determine that purchase of an appurtenance addition could be made). Moreover, the “unless otherwise provided in the declarations” language does not include having a general right to modify the declarations. The specific right to modify the appurtenances must be stated in the declarations to permit anything less than that unanimous vote. Wellington Property Management, Inc. v. Parc Corniche Condominium Assoc., 755 So. 2d 824 (5th Dist.2000). Also, an appurtenance can include the right to use facilities not owned by the association or its members. And when the declarations made membership in a recreational facility an appurtenance to the real estate interest, the recreational facilities could not be materially changed absent compliance with this statute’s unaminous vote requirement. Downey v. Jungle Den Villas Recreation Assoc., 525 So.2d 438 (5th Dist. 1988).

In other words, DVD may have some real statutory problems with what it has done. (Note that the other statutes noted in this statute are not relevant to the DVC appurtenance issue -- §§718.111(7), and 718.113, deals with an exception for the association’s purchase of real property and dealing with condemned property;§718.113 deals with alterations of common elements if the association has specific provisions in the declarations allowing it to modify common elements, and 718.106(2) (b) deals with transferring limited common elements (those used only by specified owners).
 
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I provided before reasons why I believe both purchasers from DVD and resale purchasers must all have a right to use the DVC Reservation Component to reserve any DVC Resort, including one added to that component operated by BVTC, and thus Disney either has to remove Riviera from the Disney Vacation Club entirely or drop the stated resale restrictions. I am adding now another reason. It appears the restrictions violate Fl Stats §718.110(4).

Summarizing what I have noted before based on the BWV documents: the declarations provide: (a) that every owner and Club Member, which includes all resale purchasers, shall be entitled to use the services and benefits provided by the Disney Vacation Club; (b) the two main services and benefits provided by the Club are the Home Resort Reservation Component and the DVC Reservation Component; (c) the members have a right, after the home resort reservation priority period ends, to use the DVC Reservation Component to reserve, on a first come, first served basis, any rooms at any DVC Resort other than the one they own; (d) a DVC Resort is defined as any resort that is given the right to access the DVC Reservation Component. Club Membership is deemed an “appurtenance” to the ownership interest in the unit that is part of the real property which automatically transfers to any resale purchaser via deed. The multi-site POS also provides that all Club Members, which includes resale purchasers, have a right to use the DVC Reservation Component to reserve any DVC Resort. Finally, the DVC Resort Agreement has the association transferring to BVTC the obligation to run the DVC Reservation Component to take reservations for any DVC resort from Club Members (which includes resale purchasers) and to act in the best interests of such members when adding any new DVC Resort.

Despite the above, DVD has added Riviera to the DVC Reservation Component as a DVC Resort with the resale restrictions via a supposed DVC Resort Agreement for Riviera with BVTC that contains the new resale restrictions, even though BVTC, under the BWV (and other) DVC Resort Agreements, can add a new DVC resort only via a DVC Resort Agreement whose terms are substantially similar in all material respects to the BWV DVC Resort Agreement.

So now for a new point. It results from the appurtenance requirement. An appurtenance is, by definition in the real estate world, either a tangible real property right , e.g., ownership of all or part of the unit, or intangible right, e.g., such as an easement, right of way, or right to use something considered part of the property. Fl Stats §718.110(4), which deals with amendments to declarations for any condominium development (which includes the DVC resorts), provides:

“Unless otherwise provided in the declarations as originally recorded, no amendment may change the configuration or size of any unit in any material fashion, materially alter or modify the appurtenances to the unit, or change the proportion or percentage by which the unit owner shares the common expenses of the condominium and owns the common surplus of the condominium unless the record owner of the unit and all record owners of liens on the unit join in the execution of the amendment and unless all the record owners of all other units in the same condominium approve the amendment. The acquisition of property by the association and material alterations or substantial additions to such property or the common elements by the association in accordance with s. 718.111 (7) or s. 718.113, and amendments providing for the transfer of use rights in limited common elements pursuant to s. 718.106 (2)(b) shall not be deemed to constitute a material alteration or modification of the appurtenances to the units. A declaration recorded after April 1, 1992, may not require the approval of less than a majority of total voting interests of the condominium for amendments under this subsection, unless otherwise required by a governmental entity.”

Thus, it provides that there can be no amendment to the declarations that materially alters or modifies an appurtenance absent a unanimous vote of all the owners of the condominium resort.

Case law on this section has also determined some issues. The statute means no material alterations to appurtenances can be done except as provided in this section, i.e., it requires an amendment to the declarations and a unaminous vote of the owners to change any appurtenance rights, and the association cannot claim it can rely on some other modification provision in a different document to make the change, see Tower House Condo. Assoc. v. Millman, 410 So. 2d 926 (3d Dis.1981)(association could not use appropriations provisions in by-laws to determine that purchase of an appurtenance could be made). Moreover, the “unless otherwise provided in the declarations” language does not include having a general right to modify the declarations. The specific right to modify the appurtenances must be stated in the declarations to permit anything less than that unanimous vote. Wellington Property Management, Inc. v. Parc Corniche Condominium Assoc., 755 So. 2d 824 (5th Dist.2000). Also, an appurtenance can include the right to use facilities not owned by the association or its members. And when the declarations made membership in a recreational facility an appurtenance to the real estate interest, the recreational facilities could not be materially changed absent compliance with this statute’s unaminous vote requirement. Downey v. Jungle Den Villas Recreation Assoc., 525 So.2d 438 (5th Dist. 1988).

In other words, DVD may have some real statutory problems with what it has done. (Note that the other statutes noted in this statute are not relevant to the DVC appurtenance issue -- §§718.111(7), and 718.113, deals with an exception for the association’s purchase of real property and dealing with condemned property;§718.113 deals with alterations of common elements if the association has specific provisions in the declarations allowing it to modify common elements, and 718.106(2) (b) deals with transferring limited common elements (those used only by specified owners).

Thank you for looking into the law on this. My question to you is what should we all do about it? I, and many others, have called and expressed concerns in one way or another. I admit that I did not take this avenue with researching the pertinent case law because I don't have a LexisNexis or Westlaw subscription anymore (criminal law problems). They seem so closed off from actually listening to us even when we have valid arguments. They have a mightier than thou attitude. It seems like the only thing they will listen to is a lawsuit. I really do appreciate your research into it.
 
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Thank you for looking into the law on this. My question to you is what should we all do about it? I, and many others, have called and expressed concerns in one way or another. I admit that I did not take this avenue with researching the pertinent case law because I don't have a LexisNexis or Westlaw subscription anymore (criminal law problems). They seem so closed off from actually listening to us even when we have valid arguments. They have a mightier than thou attitude. It seems like the only thing they will listen to is a lawsuit. I really do appreciate your research into it.

Me, too. Maybe a first step is to file complaint with appropriate regulatory agency and see how far that goes (I think I read that some where on here)? I think DVD is counting on individual owners being unwilling to "fight" against its deep-pocket.

LAX
 


Me, too. Maybe a first step is to file complaint with appropriate regulatory agency and see how far that goes (I think I read that some where on here)? I think DVD is counting on individual owners being unwilling to "fight" against its deep-pocket.

LAX

I think that is a reasonable first step. I did ask about the regulatory agencies in my conversation and I would describe the response as almost over the top about how the regulators are fully aware of this and it was all approved (aka "move along nothing to see here"). Does anyone know if this filing would have been approved by them?

I would be glad to contact them and express some of the concerns outlined here. My guess is the regulators have a cozy relationship with DVC so doubt it will lead anywhere, but at least puts them on notice too that people are watching. If it comes out later in a lawsuit that the regulators were made aware and did nothing it will definitely look bad for them.
 
I think that is a reasonable first step. I did ask about the regulatory agencies in my conversation and I would describe the response as almost over the top about how the regulators are fully aware of this and it was all approved (aka "move along nothing to see here"). Does anyone know if this filing would have been approved by them?

I would be glad to contact them and express some of the concerns outlined here. My guess is the regulators have a cozy relationship with DVC so doubt it will lead anywhere, but at least puts them on notice too that people are watching. If it comes out later in a lawsuit that the regulators were made aware and did nothing it will definitely look bad for them.
Correct the regulators have approved the documents; it is a requirement for starting sales. The regulator at the state level in Florida is the Department of Business & Professional Regulation, I believe, @drusba this is correct?
 
Correct the regulators have approved the documents; it is a requirement for starting sales. The regulator at the state level in Florida is the Department of Business & Professional Regulation, I believe, @drusba this is correct?

That's the regulatory agency I thought it was and I did find the complaint form. I wasn't sure if they approved every revision or it was just filed with them, as in for public accessibility.
 
You could always send DVD a cease and desist letter telling them to stop sales of RVA due to their infractions. This may turn some heads but it may need to be done by a lawyer on their letter head. This would prove to DVD that you came to play ball. Legally the would respond to some extent...
 
You could always send DVD a cease and desist letter telling them to stop sales of RVA due to their infractions. This may turn some heads but it may need to be done by a lawyer on their letter head. This would prove to DVD that you came to play ball. Legally the would respond to some extent...

I think that is probably the next two steps, file a complaint and notify DVD through a C&D. Fortunately my college roommate is an attorney in Palm Beach who practices business law, so can get some of the entry work done very easily. But he is checking with his contacts to find someone who specializes primarily in time share law and is willing to take the case on. I think it will require that kind of specialization. Any potential suit probably needs to be brought by someone with standing, which I will conveniently have in a few weeks when our PVB contract closes.

I have to admit the idea of being draw into a legal battle with DVD (and Disney) does not sound like much fun, but someone has to stand up to this. Because after this what do they try next? Plus can you imagine what kind of things discovery might turn up within DVD and DVCMC:teeth:. Now that does actually sound a little fun.
 
Is it time to fork off a new thread similar to the 2020 reallocation one? Something along the lines of, "Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to reverse the new resale restrictions?"
 
Last time they got challenged with the handful of phone calls regarding the point chart changes they folded. Granted they were also up against a booking window deadline so probably had nothing to lose by punting for a year and regrouping. Will be interesting to see where this goes now that @drusba has basically laid out the argument in this discussion. We know they read this stuff. (Hello, Disney people!)
 
I think that is probably the next two steps, file a complaint and notify DVD through a C&D. Fortunately my college roommate is an attorney in Palm Beach who practices business law, so can get some of the entry work done very easily. But he is checking with his contacts to find someone who specializes primarily in time share law and is willing to take the case on. I think it will require that kind of specialization. Any potential suit probably needs to be brought by someone with standing, which I will conveniently have in a few weeks when our PVB contract closes.

I have to admit the idea of being draw into a legal battle with DVD (and Disney) does not sound like much fun, but someone has to stand up to this. Because after this what do they try next? Plus can you imagine what kind of things discovery might turn up within DVD and DVCMC:teeth:. Now that does actually sound a little fun.

Not only this. Bringing this restriction and its potential implications out under the spotlight may give some potential direct buyers who otherwise won't be aware some hesitation (doubt the guides go into details about it). Furthermore, this might lead to "exposure" of DVD's recent adverse/negative attitude towards owners in general that can potentially damage DVC's brand/reputation (maybe even Disney). I think the more people are aware of DVD's recent business practices, the more DVD has to lose.

I say "bring it on" and see how far this can go!

LAX
 
Not only this. Bringing this restriction and its potential implications out under the spotlight may give some potential direct buyers who otherwise won't be aware some hesitation (doubt the guides go into details about it). Furthermore, this might lead to "exposure" of DVD's recent adverse/negative attitude towards owners in general that can potentially damage DVC's brand/reputation (maybe even Disney). I think the more people are aware of DVD's recent business practices, the more DVD has to lose.

I say "bring it on" and see how far this can go!

LAX

Possible but difficult. What I saw with the 2020 reallocation is that people are really resistant to the idea Disney might be doing something wrong. When I tried to post something about the implications on social media there were so many people who just refused to engage with the issue, they just didn't want to listen. Also we're talking about issues that are difficult to explain. The lockoff premium increase was a pure rip-off, but try to explain it to someone, it's not that easy to do. In order to have really an impact on their reputation something really big should happen, like a class action (newspapers would simply report someone is suing Disney, that is catchy enough, details not needed) or even better a judge stopping DVC sales because of unlawful sales tacticts (the resale restrictions). 99,99% of potential buyers will not read this thread.
 
Possible but difficult. What I saw with the 2020 reallocation is that people are really resistant to the idea Disney might be doing something wrong. When I tried to post something about the implications on social media there were so many people who just refused to engage with the issue, they just didn't want to listen. Also we're talking about issues that are difficult to explain. The lockoff premium increase was a pure rip-off, but try to explain it to someone, it's not that easy to do. In order to have really an impact on their reputation something really big should happen, like a class action (newspapers would simply report someone is suing Disney, that is catchy enough, details not needed) or even better a judge stopping DVC sales because of unlawful sales tacticts (the resale restrictions). 99,99% of potential buyers will not read this thread.

I agree and to some extent I think DVD is relying on the fact that this is such an "in the weeds" discussion that most people will gloss over and not really understand how crappy they are treating their most loyal members just to make a quick buck. The lock-off premium was exactly the same.

My initial guess is the majority of buyers aren't like those of us here who thoroughly research the decision and look at the numbers to see if it is a good investment. Most probably fall victim to the magical sales presentation and make a impulse buy. But if that were true why would DVD be so concerned about resales taking away business?
 
I agree and to some extent I think DVD is relying on the fact that this is such an "in the weeds" discussion that most people will gloss over and not really understand how crappy they are treating their most loyal members just to make a quick buck. The lock-off premium was exactly the same.

My initial guess is the majority of buyers aren't like those of us here who thoroughly research the decision and look at the numbers to see if it is a good investment. Most probably fall victim to the magical sales presentation and make a impulse buy. But if that were true why would DVD be so concerned about resales taking away business?
Agreed. I spoke with several people about this (I live in a family-oriented, Celebration-like community 86 miles from the MK, I can't spit without hitting a fellow club member).

All have told me that they read the restrictions and dont believe that it will affect them at all since they bought direct. They can book in the Riviera and they are thrilled. Once educated, they get the quizzical 'What the heck?' look.
 
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Possible but difficult. What I saw with the 2020 reallocation is that people are really resistant to the idea Disney might be doing something wrong. When I tried to post something about the implications on social media there were so many people who just refused to engage with the issue, they just didn't want to listen. Also we're talking about issues that are difficult to explain. The lockoff premium increase was a pure rip-off, but try to explain it to someone, it's not that easy to do. In order to have really an impact on their reputation something really big should happen, like a class action (newspapers would simply report someone is suing Disney, that is catchy enough, details not needed) or even better a judge stopping DVC sales because of unlawful sales tacticts (the resale restrictions). 99,99% of potential buyers will not read this thread.

That's kind of what I am hoping for if that's what it will take for DVD to stop. The most important thing is to get the facts out there for as many people as possible to make an informed decision. If some people are okay with DVC being just another timeshare out there with sleazy business tactics, who am I to tell them not to hand over their bank account to the mouse?

LAX
 
Possible but difficult. What I saw with the 2020 reallocation is that people are really resistant to the idea Disney might be doing something wrong. When I tried to post something about the implications on social media there were so many people who just refused to engage with the issue, they just didn't want to listen. Also we're talking about issues that are difficult to explain. The lockoff premium increase was a pure rip-off, but try to explain it to someone, it's not that easy to do. In order to have really an impact on their reputation something really big should happen,........

I agree, but would also point out that the rescinded 2020 charts weren't really around long enough for most members to realize the impact. (Most wouldn't until they tried to book and found out their desired stay now costs quite a bit more). Had they remained in effect, it is likely that there would have been an increasing and continuing backlash. Believe that the initial volume & trend of complaint calls/emails to DVC so near the pending start date of Riviera sales was the main driver behind the decision to pull back - for now. Like you and many others, I'm sure they'll try again in 2021. It will be interesting to see how/if DVC changes the roll-out. Doubt it will be just their usual "publish and run", LOL.
 

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