New pamphlet handed out yesterday...3/3/2012

[pugdog]

Yes it is! They have stopped letting scooters into lines that I have driven Disney's big chunky scooters into before.

Anyone know if power chairs are allowed into the lines that scooters are not allowed through?

Yes they are.

 

[kaytieeldr]

There are SO many reasons why a walker (evil as we are) cannot move as quickly as you assume we can.

Couple of comments on that. First, it's one thing to not move as quickly as you think we think you can; it's another thing entirely to be trapped in a swirling mass of people who keep moving around you but won't let you move more than an inch at a time, then yell at you when you start getting frantic.

I was in the photo area after Test Track once and people kept swarming in (and out, easily, because they were on foot). Meanwhile, I could barely move for fear of hitting someone or running over some feet. I wasn't near the counter or open space, and my 'excuse me's were getting louder and more panicked. After forever - really a few minutes - a woman said, "Maybe if you were a little nicer about it, people would move"!

The other thing: this isn't about walkers not moving fast enough. It's about walkers moving too fast, stepping into anything that lookslike an opening, or even apparently thinking they must beat the wheels or...?

And completely unrelated . Did you hear a judge ruled Jimmy Buffett gets a share of the earnings of the Margaritaville casino? I didn't hear the backstory, just that little blurb on the business news.

 

[SueM in MN]

First the whine -----
I was at work, not able to check the board.

Got home from work late. DH was not happy with me because he had to make supper and he wanted to watch the Wisconsin basketball game (so wanted me to come home early).

Then, I got onto the DISboards and found I had 1 visitor message and 5 other messages - all about this thread.

So, I have spent the last hour editing, when all I wanted to do was a bit of relaxing tonight!
If you think that a post you made on this thread was edited or is gone, you probably are right.......things were edited because they were:

• insulting or offending to other posters
• interpreted to be offending or insulting, even though they were not meant to be
• arguing with another poster
• quoting a post or portion of a post that I deleted
• responding to a post or a portion of a post that I deleted

So, if something is gone from one of your posts, now you know why. You know what you posted, so you know what category you fit into.

Now the warning..........
I think there still can be some polite discussion on this thread, so I am keeping it open for now.
I will edit it, close it and assign points for infractions if any occur from this point on (I was too tired to figure out what infractions to give for what I deleted, so consider yourself warned).

 

[TLSnell1981]

I was in the photo area after Test Track once and people kept swarming in (and out, easily, because they were on foot). Meanwhile, I could barely move for fear of hitting someone or running over some feet. I wasn't near the counter or open space, and my 'excuse me's were getting louder and more panicked. After forever - really a few minutes - a woman said, "Maybe if you were a little nicer about it, people would move"!

I would've mowed her down. Okay, not really, but..maybe in an "imagination sequence".

 

[SueM in MN]

Yes they are.

Agreeing with pugdog.

Power wheelchairs are allowed in lines where ECVs are not, but manual wheelchairs are.

Two of the reasons are related to size and maneuverability.

Most power wheelchairs fit into the same space that a manual wheelchair fits into. Many ECVs are larger and would not fit into the same ‘footprint’ as a manual wheelchair.

Power wheelchairs can turn much more sharply than an ECV can. For example, my DD’s power wheelchair can turn in a complete circle in the same space it occupies when it is sitting still.

.............
I do believe that every Disney employee should be made to spend one full day in each park in a scooter to see what it is like. I also think that they should not be allowed to wear their uniform while doing so and should be in regular clothes and not be allowed to tell anyone they are an employee so they get no special treatment. They should have to make an attempt to ride every ride and see every show........................

Many posters may not be aware of this, but Disney employees used to have to do that as part of their orientation.
A frequent poster here when I first started on this board in 1999 worked for Disney and was a trainer in a program called Traditions, that was part of the new employee orientation.
Groups of CMs were assigned to tour the park with different ‘disabilities’, along with props to help them to really experience that disability.
For example, someone might get:

• a brace on their leg to prevent them from bending it and then be given a wheelchair for the day
• one arm tied to their body to simulate someone who was missing an arm or not able to use one arm because of paralysis
• earplugs to muffle sounds and simulate a hearing impairment
• totally blackened glasses to simulate blindness or partial blindness
• clear glasses smeared with vaseline to simulate low vision.

Then, they had to make their way thru the parks, as regular visitors with disabilities.

Some people from the hospital I work at went thru some customer service training at WDW and did the same thing as part of their experience. My oldest DD was a teen volunteer at the hospital and did that training as part of her orientation.

WDW no longer does that part of their orientation and neither does the hospital I work at. After going thru it, my oldest DD felt all high school students should have to go thru that kind of training to get some idea of how disabilities affect how people are treated.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Many posters may not be aware of this, but Disney employees used to have to do that as part of their orientation.
A frequent poster here when I first started on this board in 1999 worked for Disney and was a trainer in a program called Traditions, that was part of the new employee orientation.
Groups of CMs were assigned to tour the park with different ‘disabilities’, along with props to help them to really experience that disability.
For example, someone might get:

• a brace on their leg to prevent them from bending it and then be given a wheelchair for the day
• one arm tied to their body to simulate someone who was missing an arm or not able to use one arm because of paralysis
• earplugs to muffle sounds and simulate a hearing impairment
• totally blackened glasses to simulate blindness or partial blindness
• clear glasses smeared with vaseline to simulate low vision.

Then, they had to make their way thru the parks, as regular visitors with disabilities.

.

Too bad, Disney discontinued this training. It's much easier to judge, if we don’t have all the information. We can all become a bit wiser.. by walking a mile in another’s moccasins.

 

[NotUrsula]

I'm quite sure that the reason the pamphlets are going only to users of mobility devices is that WDW is trying to strike a balance between reducing injuries &/or altercations and spending an absolute fortune on pamphlets and also keeping the trash factor as low as possible, because no matter how you parse the issue, there are exponentially more pedestrians than wheeled vehicles of any kind in the parks. Did this decision offend some people? Yes, absolutely, but the question is, did it also perhaps prevent at least one child from being run down and seriously injured by an inexperienced rental ECV driver? Is that worth taking the chance of offending disabled persons, from WDW's POV?

I'll offer a couple of thoughts here. One, I think that it is time that the Orlando theme parks (if not the state of Florida) require ALL rental ECV's to be prominantly marked in some way that denotes that the driver is inexperienced -- sort of like those bumper stickers that are required on cars being driven by student drivers. That would let CM's and Security know what they are dealing with any time that an incident happened. It might also serve as notice to pedestrians that the person controlling the vehicle might not know what he or she is doing, and to give it a wide berth. In the case of the pamphlets, it would let CM's discriminate and pass pamphlets out only to rental drivers rather than those who own their own machines.(That is, presuming that people who own personal ECV's *never* drive them recklessly, and I'm not sure that I'm willing to accept that as fact. I think it is a given that no matter what kind of vehicle you are talking about, there is always going to be a certain percentage of experienced drivers who will choose to try to hotrod the thing in some fashion.)

Second, Disney has a huge problem here, and so do all theme parks; it is only that WDW is probably the worst example because it tends to draw more elderly guests than other theme parks. This is the problem: the presence of large numbers of wheeled conveyances in the pedestrian areas of the parks SHOULD, for crowd management safety reasons, translate into reduced crowd capacity. They really should be compensating for it by counting every large 4 wheel ECV as 3 guests, every 3-wheel ECV as two guests, and every stroller as 2 guests (3 for a double.), etc. Doing so would reduce crowding and help to keep the parks safer, but I'd be willing to bet that no theme park in the US actually counts the gate that way; I'm guessing that they keep admitting the actual number of warm bodies that the designers and the fire marshall say that the parks can hold.)

Is it unfair that WDW is not also cautioning pedestrians? Sure it is, but life cannot always be perfectly fair. Irritating though it may be, it has historically been the case that when people of two vastly different sizes are attempting to maneuver around one another in a small space, the societal norm is to place the responsibility of greater caution on the larger of the two parties, because the larger person has more potential to seriously injure the smaller one. If you increase your size and weight by sitting on a 280 lb machine, then you are the larger party, and the burden of care falls on you. Stinks, but there it is.

PS: FWIW, I have experienced the WDW parks in a wheelchair. About five years ago I slashed my leg badly in a fall on the first day of a trip, so I spent the next week in a chair until I got the stitches out and was put into a walking splint.

 

[bookwormde]

Sue,

OT

Thanks for "cleaning up" this thread, and for all the hard work you do to keep this a friendly place, where the disability community can come and feel safe and comfortable to ask questions, get valuable information and express opinions.

it is greatly appreciated by those of us who understand what a unique forum this is in the on line board world, and how much it has helped many families for whom disability issues are a part of their lives.

bookwormde

 

[angelbaby29871]

As someone who has done WDW both on foot and in an ECV I feel the burden of responsibility falls on everyone. Walkers to remember there are more than just them there and ECV users that their machine doesn't stop on a dime. If we all accepted more personal responsibility it might help. Except there are those out there that won't. From what I have read here we all sound as if we do but as others have said we all live in our own little bubble on vacation so don't always pay as much attention to people around us than to the surroundings. Living in the uk our equalities act has much less teeth than the ADA so when I'm visiting I feel like I'm treated as an equal not as less of a person because of a disability. I try to be aware of who is around me when in an ECV but you van never account for some people who appear out if nowhere and cross your path by jumping over the front of you!!! How rude is that really!! The worst experience I had was on a bus from EPCOT when I was verbally abused by some drunk because it was taking extra time to get the wheelchair users off the bus. But I have never seen pamphlets handed out about not drinking to much!!! But our society has got to the very selfish stage of only thinking about themselves and we are all guilty of that at some time.

 

[Chickenlady]

NotUrsula, I, for one, would be extremely peeved (for lack of a postable word) if I was made to wear a "Caution Student ECV driver", just because my scooter was rented. Just because I refuse to subject my personal scooter to the tender, loving care of the airlines, I am not automatically a "Hazardous" driver.
Also, I still haven't heard about all these kids that are being run down and seriously injured. I doubt handing the pamphlets to any ECV rider would prevent any children being mangled. All the times I've used my scooter, I only remember 1 incident with a kid. The way I drive had nothing to do with the kid who got his flip flop stuck under my back wheel. Kids are generally clueless and stuff happens. All the watching in the world on my part, couldn't stop me from nailing this kid, who came up from behind me (while I was going forward) and stuck his foot under my back wheel. The only thing that might have helped was if his dad, who was pulling him along, hadn't dragged him so close to my scooter. Walkers need to pay attention also.

 

[deegack]

NotUrsula, I, for one, would be extremely peeved (for lack of a postable word) if I was made to wear a "Caution Student ECV driver", just because my scooter was rented. Just because I refuse to subject my personal scooter to the tender, loving care of the airlines, I am not automatically a "Hazardous" driver.
Also, I still haven't heard about all these kids that are being run down and seriously injured. I doubt handing the pamphlets to any ECV rider would prevent any children being mangled. All the times I've used my scooter, I only remember 1 incident with a kid. The way I drive had nothing to do with the kid who got his flip flop stuck under my back wheel. Kids are generally clueless and stuff happens. All the watching in the world on my part, couldn't stop me from nailing this kid, who came up from behind me (while I was going forward) and stuck his foot under my back wheel. The only thing that might have helped was if his dad, who was pulling him along, hadn't dragged him so close to my scooter. Walkers need to pay attention also.

Not a kid but dh was standing a line that was not moving (he's 6'7" and 240ish pounds so not hard to miss). The man behind him in line rammed him so hard the he was knocked to the ground and aggregated a back injury. This caused us to lose a day at the park because he was in so much pain and we had to pay for a massage to help the pain. Thankfully he brought his pain pills but had to take them the rest of the trip and they make him loopy. Standing inches away from dh when he was hit was dd all of thirty inches and twenty two pounds at the time. But for the grace of god she wasn't the one hit. The man riding the scooter had it on high speed and admitted he had no clue how to drive it. Maybe if they handed him a pamphlet he would have realized there was a slow speed and then used it.
So yes people get injured by scooters and not just because they jump in front of them. It's like any mechanical device vs person, the device has an extra duty. I live a block from a school. If I am driving or riding my bike I have an extra duty to watch for pedestrians because I can cause great bodily harm to them.

 

[buffettgirl]

Couple of comments on that. First, it's one thing to not move as quickly as you think we think you can; it's another thing entirely to be trapped in a swirling mass of people who keep moving around you but won't let you move more than an inch at a time, then yell at you when you start getting frantic.

I was in the photo area after Test Track once and people kept swarming in (and out, easily, because they were on foot). Meanwhile, I could barely move for fear of hitting someone or running over some feet. I wasn't near the counter or open space, and my 'excuse me's were getting louder and more panicked. After forever - really a few minutes - a woman said, "Maybe if you were a little nicer about it, people would move"!

The other thing: this isn't about walkers not moving fast enough. It's about walkers moving too fast, stepping into anything that lookslike an opening, or even apparently thinking they must beat the wheels or...?

And completely unrelated . Did you hear a judge ruled Jimmy Buffett gets a share of the earnings of the Margaritaville casino? I didn't hear the backstory, just that little blurb on the business news.

But I think we've ALL been in that situation at Disney - however we arrive there. I've told the story of my bus incident at TTC last year when we were practically crushed from behind by a crowd trying to get on the bus while we were stopped at the front, waiting for the driver to raise the lift. People in the back didn't see and kept pushing forward. I was very afraid at that moment that my son was going to be crushed up onto the bus. I've been standing with my family and the wave of people gets out of a large attraction and in an instant you're separated and you cannot move. And no one will let you out. Yes, it's total panic. And y es, I've raised my voice and yes I've wanted to start swinging so I could get away. I've had people tell me to take a chill pill. None of that matters when you think you're stuck. So yes, I agree with you. We ALL get in those situations. They're different, but equally as panic-driven.

And yes, I saw the snippet in the news but haven't had a chance to read yet. And if you're a parrotthead (please say you are?) then maybe we could meet in a parking lot sometime and toast our differences and similiarities.

 

[buffettgirl]

Also, hasn't it been determined that there is actually no pamphlet being handed out at this time? That it was a one time thing? (or one week? one day?) but that there is nothing being handed out right now.

 

[clanmcculloch]

Look at what you're suggesting: that every walker be aware of you and that every walker has plenty of options to move quickly because on your ECV you can't move quickly out of the way nor can you stop quickly. What about the vision impaired walker? what about the person who is walking but can't move fast because of issues with his legs? Or the teen with some invisible issue that makes him not want to move unless he wants to move?

There are SO many reasons why a walker (evil as we are) cannot move as quickly as you assume we can. It would be rude in any situation to go honking at someone. And maybe you're not all paying attention, but there are thousands of instances every day in Disney where someone get their foot steeped on, gets bumped, gets jostled, or walked over, or otherwise has a brief interaction with someone else. It's almost so common as to not even be post worthy. You're all saying "spend some time in the ECV" well I don't need to. It's a jungle out there in Disney. For real. It's crazy. People are NUT. It's not just you. Yes, your challenges are unique. No doubting that. But some people in Disney are freaking rude. Just how it is.

I have a child with so many medical issues that none of you could even begin to imagine, yet he looks perfectly fine and most of the time he behaves perfectly fine. I am QUITE aware that no one should be judged on how they look because there are so many reasons - more than the average person understands - for why things are the way they are.

Here's a different perspective for you to consider. You say that there are thousands of instances where feet are stepped on, people are bumped, jostled and get walked on. Well, ECV drives for the most part (we're not talking the exceptions here, were talking about the majority) understand that their form of legs (that's what the ECV is to them) can do a lot more damage than the legs of walker. They try and try again to alert people to the fact that people keep squeezing themselves in front of their extremely heavy equiment but the people who do so don't hear them. If a horn is what it takes to keep people from getting hit when repeated attempts to alert people to the fact that they keep putting themselves in harms way by jumping into the tiny space in front of the ECV, is the horn really such a bad thing? They're trying to avoid "stepping on" people who squeeze in front of them. Walkers do accidentally step on people or bump people who squeeze in front of them or stop short in front of them but ECV drivers who are honking are trying to take that extra step to avoid doing so because they know the damage that can caused by their "legs". They're taking the extra step to keep others safe.

 

[buffettgirl]

Here's a different perspective for you to consider. You say that there are thousands of instances where feet are stepped on, people are bumped, jostled and get walked on. Well, ECV drives for the most part (we're not talking the exceptions here, were talking about the majority) understand that their form of legs (that's what the ECV is to them) can do a lot more damage than the legs of walker. They try and try again to alert people to the fact that people keep squeezing themselves in front of their extremely heavy equiment but the people who do so don't hear them. If a horn is what it takes to keep people from getting hit when repeated attempts to alert people to the fact that they keep putting themselves in harms way by jumping into the tiny space in front of the ECV, is the horn really such a bad thing? They're trying to avoid "stepping on" people who squeeze in front of them. Walkers do accidentally step on people or bump people who squeeze in front of them or stop short in front of them but ECV drivers who are honking are trying to take that extra step to avoid doing so because they know the damage that can caused by their "legs". They're taking the extra step to keep others safe.

I could live with that explanation i'm not trying to be a beeyotch about it. Really. I just know that Disney is crowded for everyone. And everyone there probably has some unique challenge. If the ECV driver is simply trying to prevent someone from being injured (the walker) due to their own lack of attention (the walker again) then in this situation, sure, a horn would work and probably IS the best option.

 

[bedogged]

First the whine -----
I was at work, not able to check the board.

Got home from work late. DH was not happy with me because he had to make supper and he wanted to watch the Wisconsin basketball game (so wanted me to come home early).

Then, I got onto the DISboards and found I had 1 visitor message and 5 other messages - all about this thread.

So, I have spent the last hour editing, when all I wanted to do was a bit of relaxing tonight!
If you think that a post you made on this thread was edited or is gone, you probably are right.......things were edited because they were:

• insulting or offending to other posters
• interpreted to be offending or insulting, even though they were not meant to be
• arguing with another poster
• quoting a post or portion of a post that I deleted
• responding to a post or a portion of a post that I deleted

So, if something is gone from one of your posts, now you know why. You know what you posted, so you know what category you fit into.

Now the warning..........
I think there still can be some polite discussion on this thread, so I am keeping it open for now.
I will edit it, close it and assign points for infractions if any occur from this point on (I was too tired to figure out what infractions to give for what I deleted, so consider yourself warned).

For my part, I am sorry if I offended anyone on this board.

 

[bedogged]

Couple of comments on that. First, it's one thing to not move as quickly as you think we think you can; it's another thing entirely to be trapped in a swirling mass of people who keep moving around you but won't let you move more than an inch at a time, then yell at you when you start getting frantic.

I was in the photo area after Test Track once and people kept swarming in (and out, easily, because they were on foot). Meanwhile, I could barely move for fear of hitting someone or running over some feet. I wasn't near the counter or open space, and my 'excuse me's were getting louder and more panicked. After forever - really a few minutes - a woman said, "Maybe if you were a little nicer about it, people would move"!

I too have been trapped and waited and waited for the crowd to pass or someone to let me in. It never happened. Finally, I had to just slowly pull out. It can be really scary.

 

[NotUrsula]

NotUrsula, I, for one, would be extremely peeved (for lack of a postable word) if I was made to wear a "Caution Student ECV driver", just because my scooter was rented. Just because I refuse to subject my personal scooter to the tender, loving care of the airlines, I am not automatically a "Hazardous" driver.

With all due respect, if you re-read, I didn't say that you were. I suggested that the scooter be identified as a rental, and that it be marked with caution signs, not necessarily signs that specifically say that the driver is a novice. (I made a comparison, but I said "sort of like", not "exactly like"). Facing facts, the VAST majority of rental ECV's used in theme parks are used by folks who are not going to be well-practiced on that particular model of scooter, which means that even someone who uses a different model at home may have a bit of a learning curve to deal with and could mis-judge the thing's size or speed settings, at least at first. (Which happens with rental automobiles, too.)

That bit of truth aside, how exactly would it really materially hurt you to be flagged as a novice driver, even if you are not, presuming that we are not speaking of restricting where and how "novice" drivers can move? If signage helps to warn pedestrians against crowding you or jumping into your path, then that is a good thing, and it would be even if you were the best ECV driver on the planet.

Also, I still haven't heard about all these kids that are being run down and seriously injured. I doubt handing the pamphlets to any ECV rider would prevent any children being mangled. All the times I've used my scooter, I only remember 1 incident with a kid. The way I drive had nothing to do with the kid who got his flip flop stuck under my back wheel. Kids are generally clueless and stuff happens. All the watching in the world on my part, couldn't stop me from nailing this kid, who came up from behind me (while I was going forward) and stuck his foot under my back wheel. The only thing that might have helped was if his dad, who was pulling him along, hadn't dragged him so close to my scooter. Walkers need to pay attention also.

Obviously, since a pamphlet experiment was tried, SOMEONE feels that there is risk to be managed in this scenario, and if we believe anecdotal evidence posted on these boards, there have been a number of collisions and near-misses in the parks. You know, if a kid runs out in front of an automobile and gets hit, he's still going to be hurt, even if the driver didn't mean to hit him or could not stop in time, and if that driver is you, you're going to feel awful about what happened. That's why we have school crossing signs and signs that say, "Caution, children at play." I agree, stuff happens, but less stuff happens when warnings are posted to alert drivers that certain situations can be more dangerous than the norm. When you add in large numbers of novice drivers, the danger increases still more. Should we as a society remove all special-area caution signs because careful, defensive drivers MIGHT feel insulted by seeing them? If cautionary information can prevent even one injury, then it is worth putting it out there in some fashion.

 

[Chickenlady]

That bit of truth aside, how exactly would it really materially hurt you to be flagged as a novice driver, even if you are not, presuming that we are not speaking of restricting where and how "novice" drivers can move? If signage helps to warn pedestrians against crowding you or jumping into your path, then that is a good thing, and it would be even if you were the best ECV driver on the planet.

You can't be serious. I can think of lots of other signs if this is so harmless..(Caution: Drunk person), (Warning: Stupid person), (Caution: May be distracted person), (Caution: Fat person), (Warning: Stinky person) and on and on. Labeling a person or a scooter as a "Rental:Novice Driver" is demeaning and prob. against ADA, since I've never seen "Caution: Blind person" stuck on anyone's back.

As for the "almost everyone" using a rental is unfamiliar with the type of scooter.....ECV are not complicated pieces of equipment. They have a lot less moving parts than rental autos. A couple of min. with a scooter, if you've ever used one is prob. plenty. If you've never used an ECV, ok, it may take an hour....unless you really aren't mentally/physically/reflex wise capable of driving one. I feel that sometimes people who wouldn't be able to drive a car think that they can use an ECV. "Grandma can't walk at WDW, so let's throw her on a scooter". When in reality, Grandma would do much better being pushed in a wheelchair.

 

[Friendly Frog]

So you think the great big "RENT ME", or scooter advertising with a phone number on it is not enough of a sign that it is a rental???? It needs another sign? And you think your proposed sign on the scooter will make people behave more safely around the scooter than the current rental signs do?