Nikon (and probably Canon) Full Frame Mirrorless

boBQuincy

<font color=green>I am not carrying three pods<br>
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
As if we could possibly hide from all the hype of the new releases...

This looks like a major shift in direction almost on the order of "film to digital". A new Nikon mount with new lenses. The twilight of the mirror and pentaprism?
 
I wrote this in January:

https://enthusiastphotoblog.com/2018/01/23/why-mirrorless-is-the-present/

My conclusion was: "But make no mistake, the change is happening now before our eyes. Mirrorless is on the verge of taking over what is left of the serious camera market."

Specifically, I anticipated that both Nikon and Canon would get very serious about mirrorless by the end of the year, and that will lead to a damn burst moment.

dSLR won't die overnight, but there will be a change faster than people realize, especially if the adapters are good.

There will be a lot of talk saying, "we intend to fully support mirrorless and dSLR... the best of both worlds, giving our customers choices"
But then there will be a reality -- Customers will overall show a preference: Many of those who prefer dSLR are happy with the dSLR they already own, no need to keep updating regularly. But there will be a surge of buyers who are interested in change.
So you will have market demand. Then the camera makers will follow the profit. The overall market will continue to shrink, meaning less resources for camera makers to develop and support multiple models.
So if there is demand and buzz for new mirrorless releases... it will encourage Canon/Nikon to put more resources into mirrorless. But that will mean less resources for traditional dSLRs.
So the next dSLR update gets pushed back in favor of a mirrorless... more customers note the energy behind mirrorless, so buy the mirrorless instead of the dSLR... which then reinforces the camera makers to focus more and more on mirrorless.

My predictions: 2019, mirrorless hits about 50% of the market. 2020, mirrorless confidently cracks 50%. By 2022, mirrorless is 65%+ of the market.
 
In 1982 I was working in the phonograph cartridge industry and went to an audio engineering show where I saw an early CD player. It was clear to me that phonograph records were doomed but what was surprising was the speed with which it happened. Technology shifts go even faster now.

I agree with what Havoc315 wrote, except:
2018 we get mirrorless cameras from the big 2. They sell quickly.

2020 is the last new design dSLR and lenses specifically for it.

2022 dSLR has 1% market share.

Kevin Raber of Luminous Landscape on the upcoming Mirrorless War:
 
In 1982 I was working in the phonograph cartridge industry and went to an audio engineering show where I saw an early CD player. It was clear to me that phonograph records were doomed but what was surprising was the speed with which it happened. Technology shifts go even faster now.

I agree with what Havoc315 wrote, except:
2018 we get mirrorless cameras from the big 2. They sell quickly.

2020 is the last new design dSLR and lenses specifically for it.

2022 dSLR has 1% market share.

Kevin Raber of Luminous Landscape on the upcoming Mirrorless War:
[A]

wow, only a couple more years until the death of DSLR's .... so sad

your children will ask "Daddy, what did you do in the mirrorless wars ?

Untitled by c w, on Flickr
 


Been an SLR user for many, many years. In fact I'm still a (D)SLR user now (Nikon) but I've wondered just why the SLR's stick around. With digital there's no reason to need to actually look through the lens (via mirror) when you can just view exactly what the imaging chip is seeing on a screen. If the big guys just put their best imaging chip in the new cameras they can easily do away with the need for the mirror/pentaprism mechanism.
 
Been an SLR user for many, many years. In fact I'm still a (D)SLR user now (Nikon) but I've wondered just why the SLR's stick around. With digital there's no reason to need to actually look through the lens (via mirror) when you can just view exactly what the imaging chip is seeing on a screen. If the big guys just put their best imaging chip in the new cameras they can easily do away with the need for the mirror/pentaprism mechanism.
I hate relying on the screen to compose my shots. It's almost worthless to me outdoors during the day. I'm not up on the mirrorless models. Are there some with an optical viewfinder?
 
I hate relying on the screen to compose my shots. It's almost worthless to me outdoors during the day. I'm not up on the mirrorless models. Are there some with an optical viewfinder?
Well, an optical viewfinder on a mirrorless model brings in the whole issue of not actually seeing what the lens is seeing, as well as parallax adjustments. Of course that can be resolved by adding a mirror...
 


Well, an optical viewfinder on a mirrorless model brings in the whole issue of not actually seeing what the lens is seeing, as well as parallax adjustments. Of course that can be resolved by adding a mirror...
Well, it might at least keep me from cutting off my kids' heads.

I honestly don't know how people are managing with just a screen unless all their shots are indoors or at night.
 
Mirrorless cameras that are aimed at dSLR users have a screen *and* a viewfinder that is another small screen embedded in the eyepiece. There is no problem using them in daylight, same as an optical viewfinder.
 
Mirrorless cameras that are aimed at dSLR users have a screen *and* a viewfinder that is another small screen embedded in the eyepiece. There is no problem using them in daylight, same as an optical viewfinder.
Thanks for explaining that for me, Bob! I've been wondering for a while.
 
Well, an optical viewfinder on a mirrorless model brings in the whole issue of not actually seeing what the lens is seeing, as well as parallax adjustments. Of course that can be resolved by adding a mirror...
Which would make it a DSLR. I've still yet to try an MILC, and I'm curious as to what Nikon are going to offer in terms of their upcoming MILC, but I get the feeling that the adaptor to use existing F-mount lenses on it are going to render the old screwdriven AF lenses' autofocus useless, since I don't think they can fit the required motor into it, and of course, older pre-AF-S lenses need the body motor in order for autofocus to properly function or else it'll behave more like a chipped AI/AI-S/non-AI MF lens.
 
Mirrorless cameras that are aimed at dSLR users have a screen *and* a viewfinder that is another small screen embedded in the eyepiece. There is no problem using them in daylight, same as an optical viewfinder.

I find them great to use in the daytime.
 
In 1982 I was working in the phonograph cartridge industry and went to an audio engineering show where I saw an early CD player. It was clear to me that phonograph records were doomed but what was surprising was the speed with which it happened. Technology shifts go even faster now.

I agree with what Havoc315 wrote, except:
2018 we get mirrorless cameras from the big 2. They sell quickly.

2020 is the last new design dSLR and lenses specifically for it.

2022 dSLR has 1% market share.

Technology change is funny... It can be slow at first and then suddenly quickly accelerate. Often due to a shift in pricing or a tweak to the technology. E-books were crawling along until Amazon Kindle. Then they exploded..... yet their growth seems to have stalled. As if they went from 1% of the market to 50% of the market overnight and then just stuck there.

I remember early days of DVDs... DVD players were expensive, over $500... And there were limited movies available. The stores were giving away 5 free movies when you bought a DVD player. But when the price dropped to the $200 to $300 range, suddenly everyone was buying DVD players and VCRs disappeared overnight.

There are a couple factors that could work in the favor of dSLR holding a decent position:
-- The market is shrinking overall. Thus, there aren't huge masses rushing out to buy new products. This slows down change. In some ways, it's like the DVD ---> Blu-Ray transition. As most people abandoned discs in favor of downloads, there wasn't a rush to Blu-Ray.
-- APS-C dSLRs are still cheaper and more available than mirrorless: That's partially due to the glut of dSLR inventory on the market, it's also due to the maturity of the product. Nikon isn't even doing an aps-c mirrorless yet, they are going straight to full frame. Seems it will be at least 6-12 months before they go aps-c. Thus, entry bargain shoppers may still be drawn to apc-s dSLRs.
-- Conventional wisdom can be hard to shift. This is a dam burst thing -- once mirrorless recognition reaches a certain threshold in the public, it might be a non-issue. But for now, huge numbers of consumers don't understand the difference. They see a dSLR and they think "that's a real camera." And if it doesn't look like a dSLR, they assume it's not as good. I teach introductory photography classes, and I find that mindset all the time. And getting back to the shrinking market, that slows down the change in recognition.
-- Lens investments, though that's similar to VHS and phonograph investments. But people with $5,000 to $20,000 in lenses have a vested interest in continuing their traditional dSLR mounts.

That's why I generally agree with you, but I don't think the transition will be that complete and that fast.

But I do wonder whether we will ever even see a traditional Canon 5D5 or Nikon D860.
2018 will be an interesting year for the introduction of the mirrorless models.
But 2019 will be fascinating to see where Canon/Nikon put their attention, the degree to which they go back to their dSLRs.
 
Well, it might at least keep me from cutting off my kids' heads.

I honestly don't know how people are managing with just a screen unless all their shots are indoors or at night.

Most mirrorless have a viewfinder -- Every expensive and every full frame mirrorless has a viewfinder.

The EVFs (electronic viewfinders) on average, are significantly bigger than correlating optical viewfinders, they all offer 100% coverage, etc.
And on the cutting edge, the Sony A9 viewfinder -- allows 20 frames per second silent shooting without any blackout -- In other words, you press the button, keep watching the scene unfold, and don't even realize you're shooting. (You can turn on a visual prompt so that you know the camera is actually shooting).
 
So after all the days of hype leading up to it, Nikon announced their (first) two serious mirrorless cameras today. The lower priced model is about $2000, just what I paid for my first dSLR, a 3 MPCanon D30 in late 2000. An interesting lens will be released next year, 58 mm f/0.95. These are difficult for a SLR because the focus sensors are not on the image sensor, leading to front/back focus issues at wide-open aperture. Mirrorless does not have this problem and plenty of f/0.95 lenses have been available for mirrorless.

The Nikons are also much smaller than the recently released D850 and this addresses the question "will mirrorless improve our photos?". Yes, because a smaller lighter camera will not be left at home as often as the larger one.
 
So after all the days of hype leading up to it, Nikon announced their (first) two serious mirrorless cameras today. The lower priced model is about $2000, just what I paid for my first dSLR, a 3 MPCanon D30 in late 2000. An interesting lens will be released next year, 58 mm f/0.95. These are difficult for a SLR because the focus sensors are not on the image sensor, leading to front/back focus issues at wide-open aperture. Mirrorless does not have this problem and plenty of f/0.95 lenses have been available for mirrorless.

The Nikons are also much smaller than the recently released D850 and this addresses the question "will mirrorless improve our photos?". Yes, because a smaller lighter camera will not be left at home as often as the larger one.

The 58/0.95 is going to be a manual focus lens.. so not that unique.
 
Was expecting the FTZ adaptor to have a screw motor built in due to the square bottom on the adaptor, but since it lacks it, the pre-AF-S/I lenses will end up behaving like they do when mounted on F-bodies below a D7200/7100/7000, so I don't think I'll be adopting a Z until I have some AF-S lenses in my arsenal.
 

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