Otto Warmbier

There's an adage sometimes used in life, if you hear hoofbeats, maybe don't immediately assume zebras.

Odds are fairly high his brain injury was not the result of natural causes.

If he was mistreated it doesn't even mean "North Korea" made the decision to injure him. Anybody able to exert physical control over him with a sadistic streak could have acted of their own volition. It's unlikely the truth of the matter will ever be known. I am certain that is yet another source of endless misery for his family in this horrible tragedy.
 
There's an adage sometimes used in life, if you hear hoofbeats, maybe don't immediately assume zebras.

Odds are fairly high his brain injury was not the result of natural causes.

If he was mistreated it doesn't even mean "North Korea" made the decision to injure him. Anybody able to exert physical control over him with a sadistic streak could have acted of their own volition. It's unlikely the truth of the matter will ever be known. I am certain that is yet another source of endless misery for his family in this horrible tragedy.
Torture is the culture in NK prison camps.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea
 
At this point, the only thing that matters is that this young man lost his life. His loved ones are dealing with indescribable pain and loss. IMHO, that is all that matters.

I have absolutely NO right to think that there should be an autopsy. I have NO right to know. There is not a possible legal case here. And, this should be up to the family, and nobody else. Not even an coroner or other official. I am not sure how anyone thinks they really have jurisdiction.
 



I have no doubt. All I am saying is it is unlikely we will ever confirm Kim Jong Un, Minister Doe, Warden Smith or Guard Jones specifically ordered his mistreatment. It could have been by authorization or by benign endorsement, we'll likely never know.

Was he mistreated and mortally injured as a result? Most likely yes.
 
Suppressing discussion is never a way to advance as a society.

Sure.. interesting, meaningful, thought provoking points do advance and encourage discussion. That's not what you are doing though.
What exactly is your point? You seem to be saying we should all just assume Otto's injuries and death were of natural causes. Do you understand how absolutely ridiculous that sounds?
 
I am ashamed to say before this tragedy I was ignorant about the treatment of foreign detainees in NK prisons. Yes, I was aware of the NK dictatorship, poverty, starvation and degradation of its citizens but I did not know about the prison situation for foreigners and how easily they could be detained.

I am praying for Otto's friends and community today. This is a tragedy beyond measure.
 


Agreed. But we have no evidence of it.
What action do you suggest would be taken if we had additional evidence?

An autopsy is usually necessary when criminal actions are going to be filed. We can't file criminal charges against NK. We already know a decent amount about the way he was treated based on medical tests performed before he did. What purpose would additional evidence provided by an autopsy serve?
 
Sure.. interesting, meaningful, thought provoking points do advance and encourage discussion. That's not what you are doing though.
What exactly is your point? You seem to be saying we should all just assume Otto's injuries and death were of natural causes. Do you understand how absolutely ridiculous that sounds?

I'm not saying that at all. Has anyone actually read my posts? All I'm saying is that we don't have evidence that NK did anything to Otto that caused his brain damage. EVIDENCE. It probably happened. It likely happened. I believe it happened because NK is nasty enough to have caused it. But we don't have evidence. An autopsy may have provided that evidence. It may not have. Unfortunately, we're left with more questions than answers.

You can believe whatever you want based on what you know, think you know, or your emotional response to the whole situation.

However, fact is based on evidence and proof, not emotion.
 
What action do you suggest would be taken if we had additional evidence?

An autopsy is usually necessary when criminal actions are going to be filed. We can't file criminal charges against NK. We already know a decent amount about the way he was treated based on medical tests performed before he did. What purpose would additional evidence provided by an autopsy serve?

Perhaps support any military action our government wishes to pursue, if any.
 
We can't file criminal charges against NK.

What IS the course of action for us when we find out prisioners illegally detained are being tortured? I am genuinely curious.

We have several others still being detained by NK. How can we protect them and bring them home?

I realize that last question is more rhetorical than anything, but my heart aches for those whose family members are still being held in prison camps over there. Seeing Otto returned in his condition must have been even more horriflying for them, knowing the realities their family member is facing and powerless to do anything.
 
I'm not saying that at all. Has anyone actually read my posts? All I'm saying is that we don't have evidence that NK did anything to Otto that caused his brain damage. EVIDENCE. It probably happened. It likely happened. I believe it happened because NK is nasty enough to have caused it. But we don't have evidence. An autopsy may have provided that evidence. It may not have. Unfortunately, we're left with more questions than answers.

You can believe whatever you want based on what you know, think you know, or your emotional response to the whole situation.

However, fact is based on evidence and proof, not emotion.

If the bolded is a question you have to ask based on the responses you are getting, maybe the problem is with what you are posting.
 
Perhaps support any military action our government wishes to pursue, if any.

I firmly believe additional evidence is not necessary should military action be taken. I don't think it will be, but I seriously doubt the decision hinges on an autopsy. I fail to see why the family should be publicly scrutinized for a very personal decision unlikely to have further impact.

What IS the course of action for us when we find out prisioners illegally detained are being tortured? I am genuinely curious.

We have several others still being detained by NK. How can we protect them and bring them home?

I realize that last question is more rhetorical than anything, but my heart aches for those whose family members are still being held in prison camps over there. Seeing Otto returned in his condition must have been even more horriflying for them, knowing the realities their family member is facing and powerless to do anything.

Declare war. NK is not a party to human rights treaties, so we can not take them to International Court at the Hague (setting aside the complexity of that process even if we could.

Short of war, or other pre-war measures like increased sanctions, I think the only option we have is to take the extreme step to ban American passports from NK.

Personally, I'm not sure what we should do.
 
I All I'm saying is that we don't have evidence that NK did anything to Otto that caused his brain damage. EVIDENCE. .

If you don't think the tests performed before he died are sufficient evidence, I can promise you nothing that came from the autopsy would pass your bar either. We already know a great deal from the initial tests.
 
Perhaps support any military action our government wishes to pursue, if any.

If our government decided to take military action against NK it's preposterous to even begin to consider it would do so by invoking any type of evidentiary support contained in an autopsy report in this case. Entertaining that notion in any form demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding of how and why the current regime remains in power there.
 
I firmly believe additional evidence is not necessary should military action be taken. I don't think it will be, but I seriously doubt the decision hinges on an autopsy. I fail to see why the family should be publicly scrutinized for a very personal decision unlikely to have further impact.



Declare war. NK is not a party to human rights treaties, so we can not take them to International Court at the Hague (setting aside the complexity of that process even if we could.

Short of war, or other pre-war measures like increased sanctions, I think the only option we have is to take the extreme step to ban American passports from NK.

Personally, I'm not sure what we should do.
Thank you for your response. I don't know what we should do either.
 
I firmly believe additional evidence is not necessary should military action be taken. I don't think it will be, but I seriously doubt the decision hinges on an autopsy. I fail to see why the family should be publicly scrutinized for a very personal decision unlikely to have further impact.



Declare war. NK is not a party to human rights treaties, so we can not take them to International Court at the Hague (setting aside the complexity of that process even if we could.

Short of war, or other pre-war measures like increased sanctions, I think the only option we have is to take the extreme step to ban American passports from NK.

Personally, I'm not sure what we should do.
You can't (and shouldn't) declare war over one person being killed. You also can't control or police what another country does within its own borders. There is a reason why the State Department strongly discourages anyone from visiting there, because your safety will not be guaranteed.
 
These last posts are all correct....
An autopsy changes absolutely NOTHING.
This young man walked away, and into N.Korean prison, and then came home, dead.
Period.

The only thing that an autopsy would do is satisfy our cultures (sick) preoccupation with our 'right to know'. And satisfy some people's morbid preoccupations.

This family has seen their loved one go thru enough.
IMHO, they have every right to demand that he be allowed to rest in peace.
 
I can not even bear to follow this story. But, I did see one moment of the piece where the father, I think, was asked... What lesson is there to be learned here... Like, what information or lesson or good can come from this tragedy... The only lesson is that evil exists in this world. It is very real... and it can, and will, take your life.
You don't 'play' with evil.
 
What IS the course of action for us when we find out prisioners illegally detained are being tortured? I am genuinely curious.

We have several others still being detained by NK. How can we protect them and bring them home?

I realize that last question is more rhetorical than anything, but my heart aches for those whose family members are still being held in prison camps over there. Seeing Otto returned in his condition must have been even more horriflying for them, knowing the realities their family member is facing and powerless to do anything.
This was a pretty good article out this morning that talks about the complexities involved in our dealings with NK and what we may be able to do about the human rights issues.

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinio...-korean-crimes-against-humanity-20170621.html

And in other news... a) North Korea is denying torture and b) Dennis Rodman is making the talk show circuit. (All in one article! But there are plenty more around...)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/23/asia/otto-warmbier-north-korea/index.html
 

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