Powered wheelchair use restrictions
- Thread starter JimC
- Start date
ttintagel
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2011
I can understand it for older attractions, but it still amazes me that they will build a new attraction and queue without taking guest with disabilities into account. As far as I'm concerned, there's no excuse for building a queue that isn't 100% accessible in n the 21st century. It may be more difficult in some cases, but it's not like the technology, brainpower, and funding are lacking.
tinkandpan
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 26, 2007
When asked that question... my mom is awesome with her response of .... you'll need to ask him lol (when talking about my dad). I'm saddened to hear that there might be issues with the smart assist power. My Dad uses it for a little extra boost when going up hills etc, but for the most part does not use it. it would be a complete pain in the butt to have to remove it every time he goes on a ride. He does not have the ability to transfer and will have his wheelchair with him at all times.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 1999
The new queues and attractions do meet the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act).
There are requirements in terms of how wide pathways need to be (typically 36 inches, but can be narrower in places) and how steep inclines or declines are allowed to be. There are also rules regarding adding level ‘resting’ areas.
But, some of the up and downhill ramps that do meet the ADA are still difficult for some people to manage.
There are also requirements for accessibility of ride vehicles. It’s not required that all be wheelchair accessible; those that are not are required to have other features including things like where and how big transfer areas are, transfer devices, etc.
Unfortunately, not all disabled people have the same needs, so something that works well for one person’s disability might not work at all for another person.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2002
Well, I was finally able to connect with Guest Services. The individual handling our concern and I traded calls and emails trying to coordinate a time to chat. Clearly Disney does not like using email for substantive guest interaction.
Anyway, at Pirates it apparently is the ability of the cast members to move the wheelchairs from the load to unload area in a timely manner. However, only motorized wheelchairs are being restricted. Guests with their own manual chairs are able to proceed. They are having trouble moving motorized devices due to size, not folding and locking up. But they have no good explanation for my wife’s chair which is a standard wheelchair with a motorized accommodation. It collapses. It operates in freewheel mode, which we do for the cast member.
They indicated that there are contingency plans for guests who need assistance operating a manual chair in the queue. A leader would be alerted and then a determination about what to do, if anything, would be made. I think this is unworkable. Motorized devices will likely replace manual devices over time - the costs are coming down fast and battery development is practically operating under Moore’s law.
At Flights there are concerns about guest injury or injury to facilities. My view is this is not persuasive. If there is an issue with reckless behavior of some guests or even an unintentional accident of a few it should should not mean a ban on all.
They also said the pre-show load area was small and could not accommodate the larger devices. Aside from astonishment that disability access was not fully integrated into a new ride’s design (as stated by previous poster); my wife’s chair was accommodated after demanding a leader be called and the leader allowed the chair if Nancy put the chair in manual mode.
Disney stated that my wife was supposed to be offered a manual chair so she would not be required to stand for the pre-show. She was not. She was originally told she would need to stand for the pre-show. That is when she demanded a leader be called.
Unfortunately the policy makers did not reach out to us direct or offer to meet (we are local to WDW).
So I guess we plan on longer wait for rides as we get leaders called and try to negotiate accommodations. It is a shame because this can’t make cast members’ jobs much fun and will likely negatively impact leaders’ roles.
My wife is still trying to coordinate her conversation with Disney Disability.
Anyway, at Pirates it apparently is the ability of the cast members to move the wheelchairs from the load to unload area in a timely manner. However, only motorized wheelchairs are being restricted. Guests with their own manual chairs are able to proceed. They are having trouble moving motorized devices due to size, not folding and locking up. But they have no good explanation for my wife’s chair which is a standard wheelchair with a motorized accommodation. It collapses. It operates in freewheel mode, which we do for the cast member.
They indicated that there are contingency plans for guests who need assistance operating a manual chair in the queue. A leader would be alerted and then a determination about what to do, if anything, would be made. I think this is unworkable. Motorized devices will likely replace manual devices over time - the costs are coming down fast and battery development is practically operating under Moore’s law.
At Flights there are concerns about guest injury or injury to facilities. My view is this is not persuasive. If there is an issue with reckless behavior of some guests or even an unintentional accident of a few it should should not mean a ban on all.
They also said the pre-show load area was small and could not accommodate the larger devices. Aside from astonishment that disability access was not fully integrated into a new ride’s design (as stated by previous poster); my wife’s chair was accommodated after demanding a leader be called and the leader allowed the chair if Nancy put the chair in manual mode.
Disney stated that my wife was supposed to be offered a manual chair so she would not be required to stand for the pre-show. She was not. She was originally told she would need to stand for the pre-show. That is when she demanded a leader be called.
Unfortunately the policy makers did not reach out to us direct or offer to meet (we are local to WDW).
So I guess we plan on longer wait for rides as we get leaders called and try to negotiate accommodations. It is a shame because this can’t make cast members’ jobs much fun and will likely negatively impact leaders’ roles.
My wife is still trying to coordinate her conversation with Disney Disability.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 1999
Thanks for the update.
I know the preshow area accommodates my daughter’s manual wheelchair because she’s been thru the attraction several times.
It does meet the ADA guidelines, but the fault is with the guidelines not meeting the requirements of some of the larger devices - specifically ECVs, which can’t turn as sharply as a power wheelchair (which might even be the same length and width as the ECV).
I think another issue is some CMs unfamiliarity with different powered devices. I know some are very familiar, but many tend to see a power wheelchair as having the same capabilities as an ECV (clearly wrong). My guess is that’s what happened to you.
Also, power wheelchairs tend to look much bigger than they actually are. Even I look at my daughter’s power wheelchair and see it as HUGE when I know it is only slightly larger than her manual chair and can turn in almost the same space.
For Pirates, I knew a CM who worked there and the issue is getting the wheelchair from the load area to the unload area in the time it takes to ride.
The unload area is actually down one floor and in another building from the load area, with a rather small elevator to get from level to level. If the elevator is out of commission for any reason, the ride can’t accommodate wheelchairs.
In the way past, they loaded lighter/smaller/folding wheelchairs onto the boat in the back seat. I’ve heard the reasons they stopped doing that were CM injuries from the awkward lift and a wheelchair that either shifted or actually fell out of the boat.
I know there have been situations where the guest arrived at the end of the ride before the wheelchair did; as a result, CMs even ask people with their own manual wheelchair if they can use an attraction wheelchair (they keep some at the unload area).
The important words here are “larger device”.
I know the preshow area accommodates my daughter’s manual wheelchair because she’s been thru the attraction several times.
It does meet the ADA guidelines, but the fault is with the guidelines not meeting the requirements of some of the larger devices - specifically ECVs, which can’t turn as sharply as a power wheelchair (which might even be the same length and width as the ECV).
I think another issue is some CMs unfamiliarity with different powered devices. I know some are very familiar, but many tend to see a power wheelchair as having the same capabilities as an ECV (clearly wrong). My guess is that’s what happened to you.
Also, power wheelchairs tend to look much bigger than they actually are. Even I look at my daughter’s power wheelchair and see it as HUGE when I know it is only slightly larger than her manual chair and can turn in almost the same space.
For Pirates, I knew a CM who worked there and the issue is getting the wheelchair from the load area to the unload area in the time it takes to ride.
The unload area is actually down one floor and in another building from the load area, with a rather small elevator to get from level to level. If the elevator is out of commission for any reason, the ride can’t accommodate wheelchairs.
In the way past, they loaded lighter/smaller/folding wheelchairs onto the boat in the back seat. I’ve heard the reasons they stopped doing that were CM injuries from the awkward lift and a wheelchair that either shifted or actually fell out of the boat.
I know there have been situations where the guest arrived at the end of the ride before the wheelchair did; as a result, CMs even ask people with their own manual wheelchair if they can use an attraction wheelchair (they keep some at the unload area).
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2002
There have been a number of comments about Disney’s obligations and compliance with the ADA. I did not intend this to be a debate regarding Disney’s compliance or non-compliance. I am familiar with aspects of the ADA, but am no expert.
However, I have an opinion. The ADA, like any law, is a compromise that made it through the legislative process. It is an equal opportunity law for the disabled. It sets minimum requirements that contribute greatly toward equal participation in society. When we travel outside the US we quickly notice the difference.
However, those are minimum requirements. We expect Disney to go well beyond minimum requirements in everything they do. Merely complying with the ADA does not garner much distinction. And until this policy change we put Disney in the class of going well beyond what they must do. That approach to the guest experience is why they capture so much of our vacationing time and money. The policy change significantly lowers our impressions.
I believe their explanations for the policy change are somewhat coherent, but generally lacking in nuance. Cast members give inconsistent reasons for the restrictions. Guest services has not been much better. And thus far they have not shown much interest in engaging in any meaningful conversation on the issue. To be clear, my unhappiness is not with the cast members, nor guest services; it rests solely with the policy makers, the policy change and how they implemented it.
Just my 2 cents.
However, I have an opinion. The ADA, like any law, is a compromise that made it through the legislative process. It is an equal opportunity law for the disabled. It sets minimum requirements that contribute greatly toward equal participation in society. When we travel outside the US we quickly notice the difference.
However, those are minimum requirements. We expect Disney to go well beyond minimum requirements in everything they do. Merely complying with the ADA does not garner much distinction. And until this policy change we put Disney in the class of going well beyond what they must do. That approach to the guest experience is why they capture so much of our vacationing time and money. The policy change significantly lowers our impressions.
I believe their explanations for the policy change are somewhat coherent, but generally lacking in nuance. Cast members give inconsistent reasons for the restrictions. Guest services has not been much better. And thus far they have not shown much interest in engaging in any meaningful conversation on the issue. To be clear, my unhappiness is not with the cast members, nor guest services; it rests solely with the policy makers, the policy change and how they implemented it.
Just my 2 cents.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2002
Update. Today we learned more.
1. When you reach out to Disney Disabilities you end up with Guest Services. The same department I have been interacting with. They are the intermediary. It is apparently not possible to speak directly with Disney Disabilities. The email for Disability Services reaches the same group (Guest services) as my email to DVC member satisfaction team (now it is possible that DVC forwarded my email to guest services, that I am not clear about).
2. They classify a wheelchair as an ECV if it has a power assist...."that the battery powered nature of the chair firmly places it in the category of electric or power chairs." I guess that is another way for them to describe an ECV. And from that we deduce that a standard wheelchair ceases to be such if it is modified to have a power assist, even though it retains all of the essential characteristics of its original design -- size, mobility and collapsibility.
3. They are unwilling to entertain any more nuanced situation regarding a standard wheelchair modified with a power assist device.
I asked them tonight again why they are so resistant to a simple request that a wheelchair be treated as a wheelchair. I also inquired why my wife's wheelchair does not fall under the DOJ Civil Rights Division final regulations covering wheelchairs, mobility aids and other power-driven mobility devices where it appears fairly clear to me, a lay person, that it must be allowed. So now we do enter the realm of compliance, just where I had fervently hoped we could avoid going.
So we will see what comes next.
1. When you reach out to Disney Disabilities you end up with Guest Services. The same department I have been interacting with. They are the intermediary. It is apparently not possible to speak directly with Disney Disabilities. The email for Disability Services reaches the same group (Guest services) as my email to DVC member satisfaction team (now it is possible that DVC forwarded my email to guest services, that I am not clear about).
2. They classify a wheelchair as an ECV if it has a power assist...."that the battery powered nature of the chair firmly places it in the category of electric or power chairs." I guess that is another way for them to describe an ECV. And from that we deduce that a standard wheelchair ceases to be such if it is modified to have a power assist, even though it retains all of the essential characteristics of its original design -- size, mobility and collapsibility.
3. They are unwilling to entertain any more nuanced situation regarding a standard wheelchair modified with a power assist device.
I asked them tonight again why they are so resistant to a simple request that a wheelchair be treated as a wheelchair. I also inquired why my wife's wheelchair does not fall under the DOJ Civil Rights Division final regulations covering wheelchairs, mobility aids and other power-driven mobility devices where it appears fairly clear to me, a lay person, that it must be allowed. So now we do enter the realm of compliance, just where I had fervently hoped we could avoid going.
So we will see what comes next.
kaytieeldr
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2005
https://www.justice.gov/crt/how-file-complainthttps://www.ada.gov/opdmd.htm
- Covered entities must allow people with disabilities who use manual or power wheelchairs or scooters, and manually-powered mobility aids such as walkers, crutches, and canes, into all areas where members of the public are allowed to go.
- Most people are familiar with the manual and power wheelchairs and electric scooters used by people with mobility disabilities. The term "wheelchair" is defined in the new rules as "a manually-operated or power-driven device designed primarily for use by an individual with a mobility disability for the main purpose of indoor or of both indoor and outdoor locomotion."
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2002
New update. In response to our question, why is my wife's wheelchair not covered under the DOJ final regulations covering wheelchairs (and we cited the regulations), we get this. They will not answer our question in writing. On the phone they only say that all powered devices are treated the same and that we can meet and speak with them, but no access to actual disability specialists or decision makers. Also that the policy was made for safety concerns, and now its safety of other guests. But no further explanation.
So as frustrating as this is, any further interaction with this group is likely to be useless. We do not believe this complies with the DOJ regulations. Disney is unwilling to explain why they believe that they are correct. An amazingly indifferent or arrogant approach to guest relationship.
So as frustrating as this is, any further interaction with this group is likely to be useless. We do not believe this complies with the DOJ regulations. Disney is unwilling to explain why they believe that they are correct. An amazingly indifferent or arrogant approach to guest relationship.
DisneyOma
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2015
I think this is part of the issue. As a business, Disney is going to do what they have to do by law. If they go above and beyond, that will always be expected of them, and then they get into this exact scenario, over and over again, when they cannot meet everyone's wants. Why do you expect Disney to go well beyond minimum requirements in everything they do? Do you expect that of all other places as well? Disney is just another business, IMO, and the high expectations some people have of the place is what sets them up for high disappointment.
Also, ADA for amusement parks is a bit different from the standard access part. For example, they don't have to make a roller coaster accessible to all. Not all attractions have to be completely accessible to everyone. Otherwise, we'd have parks full of IASW rides, and that's it. For FOP, part of the attraction is to get "scanned" etc. If the ECV makes it unsafe for this part of the attraction, perhaps they could have those using ECV or motorized wheelchairs skip it though?
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2002
if Disney wants to compete doing the minimum then they will degrade to the status of any amusement park, which does not support premium pricing. And I do not believe they want to be considered as such. My expectations of other businesses vary from business to business and industry to industry.
And for clarity once again, what this thread covers is just one aspect of accessibility. That one aspect is that a powered wheelchair should be treated the same as a manual wheelchair. Disney has decided to treat them differently in the queues. There is no discussion here about ride accessibility or any requirements regarding the rides themselves. All we are concerned about is the disparate treatment of a powered wheelchair compared to a manual wheelchair.
And for clarity once again, what this thread covers is just one aspect of accessibility. That one aspect is that a powered wheelchair should be treated the same as a manual wheelchair. Disney has decided to treat them differently in the queues. There is no discussion here about ride accessibility or any requirements regarding the rides themselves. All we are concerned about is the disparate treatment of a powered wheelchair compared to a manual wheelchair.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 1999
I think the issue is specific attractions and communication. I also think some of the information you got was totally incorrect specifically from DVC, who are not involved in accessibility and should have just passes it on to the correct department.
I already mentioned the issues with Pirates
i. e. the unload area is down one floor and in a different building from the load area and requires a CM to move a mobility device around the building and down an elevator.
We were told once that the elevator was temporarily out of commission so we could not ride. We have also been asked to use an attraction wheelchair in line rather than DD’s small manual wheelchair because they could not guarantee the wheelchair would be delivered before we got off. We explained she could only sit in her own and we were allowed to bring hers in, but we knew she might have to sit in one of their wheelchairs at unload to wait for hers.
For Flight of Passage, I do know they don’t allow ECVs in the preshow room because of size and turning radius. On another forum, I’ve seen people post about using a power wheelchair there after you were told no. I know they have a special transfer wheelchair that they offer to guests who might have a hard time transferring. I wonder if the CM was trying to offer that, but did a very poor job communicating (i.e. the reasons for using it in line instead of hers were understood as being reasons her wheelchair was prohibited instead of reasons to choose to use the transfer wheelchair).
Interested to hear the outcome.
I already mentioned the issues with Pirates
i. e. the unload area is down one floor and in a different building from the load area and requires a CM to move a mobility device around the building and down an elevator.
We were told once that the elevator was temporarily out of commission so we could not ride. We have also been asked to use an attraction wheelchair in line rather than DD’s small manual wheelchair because they could not guarantee the wheelchair would be delivered before we got off. We explained she could only sit in her own and we were allowed to bring hers in, but we knew she might have to sit in one of their wheelchairs at unload to wait for hers.
For Flight of Passage, I do know they don’t allow ECVs in the preshow room because of size and turning radius. On another forum, I’ve seen people post about using a power wheelchair there after you were told no. I know they have a special transfer wheelchair that they offer to guests who might have a hard time transferring. I wonder if the CM was trying to offer that, but did a very poor job communicating (i.e. the reasons for using it in line instead of hers were understood as being reasons her wheelchair was prohibited instead of reasons to choose to use the transfer wheelchair).
Interested to hear the outcome.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2002
Sue, there was a time when I would have been willing to entertain the generous interpretation of the situation. But that time has long passed. Our conversations with ride cast members were specific and clear. Note that on Saturday’s preview, the ride cast members at the new ride in Galaxy’s Edge were quite accommodating, polite and helpful. Our interactions with Disney have been specific on our end and lacking in explanation on their end.
We have a wheelchair, not an ECV. There is a difference. And we are not asserting anything about ECVs. We are focused on wheelchairs, Disney’s decision to treat manual and powered wheelchairs differently and now the applicable DOJ regulations since they are simply not interested in having a productive conversation over their policy.
As to DVC, I may have been unclear, I went to DVC with my complaint, but it was guest services who responded to me. The same group that responds if you email disney disabilities.
I am unsure what next steps will be at this point.
We have a wheelchair, not an ECV. There is a difference. And we are not asserting anything about ECVs. We are focused on wheelchairs, Disney’s decision to treat manual and powered wheelchairs differently and now the applicable DOJ regulations since they are simply not interested in having a productive conversation over their policy.
As to DVC, I may have been unclear, I went to DVC with my complaint, but it was guest services who responded to me. The same group that responds if you email disney disabilities.
I am unsure what next steps will be at this point.
Last edited:
DisneyOma
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2015
No, they are not going to want to talk to you at all abut their policy at this point. They are going to lawyer up very quickly, and that could get very expensive for you if take the next steps .
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2002
Update. Sorry for being away from this for so long. Had other commitments, had to find a way to get to a decision-maker and had to decide on the best approach. It resulted in a very productive conversation with head of Disability Services today. What I learned was that this is not a shift to exclude powered wheelchairs like the one my wife uses.
Learned something interesting about Flights of Passage. They designed a custom manual chair (with a special notch) that can take the guest directly onto and off of the ride device. It has a lift capability to match seat to ride device height. There is also a special room for the guest to transfer in private from their chair to this one or a regular manual chair if desired.
There are ECV turning radius issues. And issues with some custom powered devices. Having a conversation with the right person gets thoughtful and cogent responses.
Learned something interesting about Flights of Passage. They designed a custom manual chair (with a special notch) that can take the guest directly onto and off of the ride device. It has a lift capability to match seat to ride device height. There is also a special room for the guest to transfer in private from their chair to this one or a regular manual chair if desired.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 1999
Thanks for reporting back.
There is information about the Flight of Passage transfer wheelchair in the Pandora Rides thread stuck near the top of this thread.
This is a link to the actual post with pictures and a link to Rolling With the Magic’s blog post.
https://www.disboards.com/threads/pandora-rides.3593133/post-57736947
mamabunny
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2012
I really am glad to hear that you finally were able to speak with someone at Disability Services.
"Custom powered devices"? Can you elaborate further on that? I'm trying to figure out what exactly that refers to. The vast majority of ECVs at WDW are the standard scooter type that we see from the rental agencies; there are a handful of folks with personal devices like mine that fall into the "super lightweight" category of ECV that tend to have a smaller footprint and tight turning radius.
There are different styles of power chairs - is that what they are referring to?
Other than that, it's a lot of manual chairs, and the occasional (ill-advised) knee scooter, which really don't count because those are self-powered devices.
And what exactly is the issue with "custom powered devices"? I'm going to be (ultimately) moving to a powered chair in the not-as-distant-as-I-want future, and given the potential cost of that investment, I want to make sure I can still be accommodated at WDW.
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