Pulse shooter's original target may have been Disney Springs

[hertamaniac]

Verdict for Noor Salman (wife):

Obstruction of justice - Not guilty
Aiding and abetting a terrorist organization - Not guilty

 

[WDW_Ding]

It occurs to me that whatever steps Disney takes, it can't win. There's been an ongoing thread with a lot of outrage, all about how Disney overstepped its bounds regarding privacy and hotel room searches after the Las Vegas shooter. But at Disney Springs, why isn't it harder to get into? Why isn't there more security everywhere?

It's just a no-win. Everyone views their priorities differently.

To many, one of those decisions makes sense...and one doesn't.

Checking rooms isn't going to stop a reasonably smart shooter. Security at DS would.

 

[Ponderer]

To many, one of those decisions makes sense...and one doesn't.

Checking rooms isn't going to stop a reasonably smart shooter. Security at DS would.

I don't wanna get into a protracted discussion because people will fairly have differences, but a smart shooter doesn't put themselves in a position where they can be easily discovered. If they know a housekeeper has the right to just randomly walk in whenever, they aren't going there. A smart criminal doesn't take the risk. They find an easier target. A more predictable one.

I appreciate the perspective, though.

 

[WDW_Ding]

I don't wanna get into a protracted discussion because people will fairly have differences, but a smart shooter doesn't put themselves in a position where they can be easily discovered. If they know a housekeeper has the right to just randomly walk in whenever, they aren't going there. A smart criminal doesn't take the risk. They find an easier target. A more predictable one.

I appreciate the perspective, though.

You have to remember, though, that housekeeping isn't going to go through bags, or check every nook and cranny of the room. Also, remember that certain 2 bedroom DVC rooms can be 1,000+ square feet. Some villas are 2,000+ square feet.

 

[Tonyz]

That is the ultimate nightmare... terrifying to think how close this maniac got to doing it.

 

[Ponderer]

You have to remember, though, that housekeeping isn't going to go through bags, or check every nook and cranny of the room. Also, remember that certain 2 bedroom DVC rooms can be 1,000+ square feet. Some villas are 2,000+ square feet.

Absolutely true. But if I was an intelligent maniac, I would do everything in my power to avoid the risk of discovery in the first place. Housekeeping coming in takes the risk from “prime location to commit a crime unimpeded” to “having to look over my shoulder.” It’s not perfect, by any means. It’s certainly not a replacement for obvious and well-thought out security. But random discovery is often a real useful enemy of crime.

 

[WDW_Ding]

Absolutely true. But if I was an intelligent maniac, I would do everything in my power to avoid the risk of discovery in the first place. Housekeeping coming in takes the risk from “prime location to commit a crime unimpeded” to “having to look over my shoulder.” It’s not perfect, by any means. It’s certainly not a replacement for obvious and well-thought out security. But random discovery is often a real useful enemy of crime.

I think where we differ here is that I'm assuming that the shooter wants to target WDW, whereas you're assuming the shooter is flexible in his/her choice of targets.

 

[Jerry5788]

Sad shooter picked a target at all and sickening to hear this was original target

 

[Ponderer]

I think where we differ here is that I'm assuming that the shooter wants to target WDW, whereas you're assuming the shooter is flexible in his/her choice of targets.

That's a good point. But even if they were specifically targeting WDW, my feeling is that checking in an inspected hotel room still presents a higher risk. What are more unsecured areas? I think if you're a smart maniac wanting to cause maximum carnage at WDW with minimum effort or fear of discovery, there are now several MUCH easier ways to do that that I can conjure right off the top of my head. (I won't go into them here, because I'm not really interested in scaring people or giving disturbed people fresh ideas.)

There definitely are some people who plan everything out to the nines, as you say. I don't think even an active police presence dissuades that contingent, much less the housekeeper. But I think history has shown - especially when it comes to terrorists - that many would-be killers spook easily and go to a target of easier opportunity. The Pulse shooter is one. Some of the terrorist attacks in Europe - especially the vehicular homicides - have happened when a original plan goes south. And a lot of these people are just stupid and can get caught in a casual net.

Anyway, you're a wise person and I get where you're coming from, but I'm a big believer in passive measures for this sort of thing. Maybe because I think that most murderers aren't brainiacs and it's easier to get them if there aren't uniforms around? Who knows. If there were easier solutions, we'd probably have done them.

 

[Scifidiner]

I think it's incredibly sad that we have reached a place in 2018 where this is even a concern. After 9/11 things have changed for the worst in this country. As much as I hate to admit it, I can't help but be angry at certain groups of people because of that.

 

[Princess_Lisa]

According to an article I read, he picked Pulse because their security was the weakest. He researched other clubs and supposedly even scoped one out (as well as Downtown Disney), but decided on Pulse because it was the softest target.

 

[mshanson3121]

During the trial of the shooter's wife, prosecutors are alleging that Disney may have been the initial target of the pulse nightclub shooter. Evidently he was spooked by the presence of police and left the Disney Springs area. Link below (if I copied it correctly)

Pulse nightclub shooter intended to attack Disney World, prosecutors say

Late to the party and I haven't read the other comments, but I'm pretty sure this is old news. I mean, I know the trial is current, but the fact that DS was originally a target, came out within days of the actual shooting.

 

[mshanson3121]

I've heard rumors that DS isn't doing as well as they hoped. I hope they aren't hesitant to do what needs to be done to avoid putting people off. They sure haven't hesitated to step things up in the parks and resorts. It just seems so odd that the original target was DS yet they've made visible changes everywhere but there. I'm sure they've stepped it up behind the scenes, but still......

Perhaps they've stepped up the parks, because this made them realize just what a target they are? And that probably the WDW parks are an even bigger target than DS? I dunno. Just guessing.

 

[mshanson3121]

I thought about this when we visited Universal a couple of months ago. The security check point was much more thorough than anything Disney does, you can’t even get into City Walk without going through the metal detector. It made me feel safer there and I appreciated that they are making a strong effort to at least appear like a harder target.

I'm the oddball on this I know, but I would have no problem, in fact, would probably welcome having to walk through metal detectors being standard at all WDW parks. And it makes me kind of sad to say that, because it's a reflection of the world we live in.

 

[mshanson3121]

Absolutely true. But if I was an intelligent maniac, I would do everything in my power to avoid the risk of discovery in the first place. Housekeeping coming in takes the risk from “prime location to commit a crime unimpeded” to “having to look over my shoulder.” It’s not perfect, by any means. It’s certainly not a replacement for obvious and well-thought out security. But random discovery is often a real useful enemy of crime.

I think though we have to remember, that most of the mass murderers recently have been those with mental illness/neurological disorders, or terrorist attacks. Typically, while yes, one on hand they do certainly put a lot of thought into the planning, they don't necessarily care if they're caught, so don't put as much thought into that end of things. As opposed to say a serial killer, underground murderer etc... who is going to be extremely careful about leaving no trace behind.

 

[PuppyJonathan]

I'm the oddball on this I know, but I would have no problem, in fact, would probably welcome having to walk through metal detectors being standard at all WDW parks. And it makes me kind of sad to say that, because it's a reflection of the world we live in.

I found it extremely odd that my local most park had metal detectors long before Disney did

 

[XXRAINMANX]

As someone who used to work DTD before it was DS I can tell you there is a lot more security there than you realize. Even then I always felt a bit insecure walking around Westside after the last Circ show because of how empty and alone I felt
We actually had an armed robbery (knife) the Oct I worked back in 2007 in the Westside about a week after I told my managers how creepy it was on that side of DTD. From that point on security was all over even if you didn't see them. That's one thing I will say about Disney security is always watching, and they're always listening. A couples weeks after the event on the westside I was cleaning up from a house of blues concert. I remember looking hearing a random noise and looking in the distance for a second and within 30 seconds on the radio I'm getting paged on the radio wanting to know what's going on and what spooked me; probably 30 seconds after that bike patrols rolling in making sure everything is alright. You might not see them but they're there. We had some shoplifters hitting the area one day. Within 5 minutes everyone with a radio had a description of what they looked like. And Undercover security was following them until they hit again. Undercover security was great too. These guys could blend into a tourist crowd like you would not believe. I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you don't see more security doesn't mean it isn't hiding in plain sight.


Back in 2007 when PI was around I estimated that area was losing close to 20k a night. When they announced PI was closing I figured it was a 10yr plan to break even and another 5 to see phase 4 behind the Circ building see development. Which seems like things are progressing to. As far as profitability now, yes they could still be behind on plan. DS takes a lot of staff to run and the only guaranteed income is rental income from 3rd party. If they so if merchandise sales are down or a vendor pulls out income won't be there for them necessarily. Plus DS is basically 30-60 minutes for any guest to get to from a park. Most aren't willing to go to DS for food on park days. That means they're dependent on local/travel day traffic so I could easily see a sales issue.

 

[Princess_Lisa]

I'm the oddball on this I know, but I would have no problem, in fact, would probably welcome having to walk through metal detectors being standard at all WDW parks. And it makes me kind of sad to say that, because it's a reflection of the world we live in.

If they aren't going to let me carry in the parks, I would hope they make more of an effort to make sure no one else is either. "Randomly" picking people for the metal detector doesn't instill confidence. At Universal, everyone goes through the metal detectors and all bags go through the x-ray machines. I think Disney should do the same.

 

[mom2rtk]

As someone who used to work DTD before it was DS I can tell you there is a lot more security there than you realize. Even then I always felt a bit insecure walking around Westside after the last Circ show because of how empty and alone I felt
We actually had an armed robbery (knife) the Oct I worked back in 2007 in the Westside about a week after I told my managers how creepy it was on that side of DTD. From that point on security was all over even if you didn't see them. That's one thing I will say about Disney security is always watching, and they're always listening. A couples weeks after the event on the westside I was cleaning up from a house of blues concert. I remember looking hearing a random noise and looking in the distance for a second and within 30 seconds on the radio I'm getting paged on the radio wanting to know what's going on and what spooked me; probably 30 seconds after that bike patrols rolling in making sure everything is alright. You might not see them but they're there. We had some shoplifters hitting the area one day. Within 5 minutes everyone with a radio had a description of what they looked like. And Undercover security was following them until they hit again. Undercover security was great too. These guys could blend into a tourist crowd like you would not believe. I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you don't see more security doesn't mean it isn't hiding in plain sight.


Back in 2007 when PI was around I estimated that area was losing close to 20k a night. When they announced PI was closing I figured it was a 10yr plan to break even and another 5 to see phase 4 behind the Circ building see development. Which seems like things are progressing to. As far as profitability now, yes they could still be behind on plan. DS takes a lot of staff to run and the only guaranteed income is rental income from 3rd party. If they so if merchandise sales are down or a vendor pulls out income won't be there for them necessarily. Plus DS is basically 30-60 minutes for any guest to get to from a park. Most aren't willing to go to DS for food on park days. That means they're dependent on local/travel day traffic so I could easily see a sales issue.

Of course there's more than we can see. I assume there's a LOT that we don't see. I also assume there's a lot we don't see at the parks. But I'd also like to see more layers of security similar to what they have done at DLR. After all, DS was actually a target at one point. I'd like to see them addressing it at all levels.

A lot of damage can happen in 30 seconds.

 

[mom2rtk]

If they aren't going to let me carry in the parks, I would hope they make more of an effort to make sure no one else is either. "Randomly" picking people for the metal detector doesn't instill confidence. At Universal, everyone goes through the metal detectors and all bags go through the x-ray machines. I think Disney should do the same.

Not sure if this is always the case, but on our DLR trip last year, we went through a metal detector every single time we entered the secure zone, which included DTD as well as the parks. This included a late night run from DLH into a nearly uninhabited DTD for a sandwich at EOS on a random Tuesday night.