Real estate question

[tcufrog]

We recently sold our previous home at a big discount with the fact that it would be As Is written into the contract. We didn't know of anything major wrong with the house but at that price, we weren't willing to touch a single thing. When the buyers came back to us with a list of requested repairs based on the inspection, we told them no because we had already agreed to As Is. They ended up buying our house. I would never lie on a seller's disclosure but I firmly believe that it's the buyer's responsibility to do due diligence when buying a home. If a home had a roof that was at the end of its natural lifespan, I'd get a separate roof inspection done during the option period. It's the buyer's job to do that, not the sellers.

 

[Hikergirl]

If I was buying a house and knew the roof was from 1995 I would expect that it needed replacement.
I'm not sure another roofer would tell you something different. It would be one thing if you were just looking for estimates at replacing, but you are looking at a repair on an almost 30 year old roof.

 

[cobright]

Thing is, if OP replaces roof, the value if the house goes up.

If the buyer gets a house with a brand new roof, the selling price should increase accordingly. The age of the current roof should already be disclosed somewhere. Simply make it clear to the buyers that you are happy to have someone make the requested repairs but because of the age of the roof there is unlikely to be any warranty on those repairs.

 

[Searc]

Where we live a lawyer isn't used for closing. You close at a title company. We've been involved in multiple real estate transactions and have never used a lawyer. As for repairs, I prefer to deduct the amount off of the sales price so that I'm liable for the quality of the repairs.

Same here.

 

[puffkin]

I am flabbergasted that so many people think you should disclose or pay for a new roof as the seller!?!?

I know real estate laws differ from state to state. We just purchased a 22 year old house. The sellers disclosed to us that there were no known issues/repairs made to the roof and that it was original to the home. Our home inspector did not find any known issues or evidence of repairs. The house was priced by the sellers accordingly for having 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer was made with the knowledge that the house had 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer (and I am sure their selling price) would have been different had the roof and mechanicals been significantly newer or older.

So if all the appropriate disclosures and inspections have been made, and the real estate laws abided by in your state, I am not sure why anyone would think you are obligated to do more?

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I am flabbergasted that so many people think you should disclose or pay for a new roof as the seller!?!?

I know real estate laws differ from state to state. We just purchased a 22 year old house. The sellers disclosed to us that there were no known issues/repairs made to the roof and that it was original to the home. Our home inspector did not find any known issues or evidence of repairs. The house was priced by the sellers accordingly for having 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer was made with the knowledge that the house had 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer (and I am sure their selling price) would have been different had the roof and mechanicals been significantly newer or older.

So if all the appropriate disclosures and inspections have been made, and the real estate laws abided by in your state, I am not sure why anyone would think you are obligated to do more?

The seller put no known issues on the disclosure form. Well if the Seller learns of an issue after the sale and before closing, they're obligated to disclose it. Now I wouldn't go just with the opinion of one roofer. Many of them are scam artists. I'd get a couple more opinions from reputable roofers. And if those come back with it needs to be replaced, it's an issue that has to be disclosed.
Further, most contracts have cancellation clauses in case something happens to the house or adverse facts or adverse inspections come to light between sale and closing So where they go from there will likely need to be negotiated.

 

[tvguy]

I am flabbergasted that so many people think you should disclose or pay for a new roof as the seller!?!?

I know real estate laws differ from state to state. We just purchased a 22 year old house. The sellers disclosed to us that there were no known issues/repairs made to the roof and that it was original to the home. Our home inspector did not find any known issues or evidence of repairs. The house was priced by the sellers accordingly for having 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer was made with the knowledge that the house had 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer (and I am sure their selling price) would have been different had the roof and mechanicals been significantly newer or older.

So if all the appropriate disclosures and inspections have been made, and the real estate laws abided by in your state, I am not sure why anyone would think you are obligated to do more?

I think FHA and VA lenders are the issue. I "think" they require a certain number of years of roof life to be left....two years I believe. Which may explain why some listings say "no FHA or VA contingent offers will be considered". I also "think" if you as a seller accept an offer with an FHA or VA specifically mentions as the lender, and they say the house needs a new roof, you are on the hook for a new roof.

 

[North of Mouse]

We are selling our home and filled out the Seller Disclosure form. We answered no to any roof problems because we weren't aware of any. The buyer had a home inspection done and one of the repairs they requested of us was to replace some missing shingles on the ridge of the roof (we weren't aware any shingles were missing) and to install turtle vents on the roof. We had a roofer come out yesterday to give us an estimate on doing these repairs and he told us we actually need a full roof replacement. He showed us how all over the roof he can pull up the shingles and in one part over the porch he said it was extremely weak. He explained the reason why we haven't had any leaks yet, but I didn't really get why.

Now the question. We told our realtor what the roofer found. She said we do not need to disclose this to the buyer of our home. She said they had an inspection done and they didn't ask for a new roof and their inspector should have found it. We asked a second real estate agent and she agreed that we are under no obligation to disclose this. Is there no obligation to update the seller disclosure form if new information comes to light before closing? We want to do the right thing. We have lived in this house since 1995 and believe the roof was new in 1994. Thanks for any thoughts or advice!

Roofers will always tell you it's time for a new roof!!! Seriously, some will!!
We have had lots of moves, selling in the course of dh's occupation. When our buyers have given us lists of things they want done, we always counter with a list of what we WILL do.
We have fixed any potentially dangerous or necessary things that come up, but in the case of the roof situation - no way. It's up to their inspector to find things - you have no obligation to point out something you didn't know about, but was just told by a 'salesman'. That's their problem.
By the way, because of nit picking and various other things about FHA & VA, we wouldn't accept those. The wait is usually very long, plus they want the seller to pay things they don't allow their loaners to pay.

 

[tvguy]

By the way, because of nit picking and various other things about FHA & VA, we wouldn't accept those. The wait is usually very long, plus they want the seller to pay things they don't allow their loaners to pay.

That is what I have heard.

 

[Liz]

We got the appraisal back on our home today and I thought it might mention the condition of the roof but it didn’t. We did repairs the buyer requested ($600). I tried to get another roofer to come out but couldn’t get anyone right away.

In the end I decided to go with our realtor’s advice and not say anything more about the roof. We have never sold a house before so I need the realtor on our side to get us through this. I didn’t want to demand this be disclosed and go against our realtor’s advice. Still I will probably always wish we had been able to tell.

Now hopefully we can move the last week of June and quickly get settled before our next major life event. Kidney transplant for our 30 year old daughter on July 17th (she lives with us). Thank you for all the advice!

 

[Darcy03231]

I am flabbergasted that so many people think you should disclose or pay for a new roof as the seller!?!?

I know real estate laws differ from state to state. We just purchased a 22 year old house. The sellers disclosed to us that there were no known issues/repairs made to the roof and that it was original to the home. Our home inspector did not find any known issues or evidence of repairs. The house was priced by the sellers accordingly for having 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer was made with the knowledge that the house had 22 year old roof and mechanicals. Our offer (and I am sure their selling price) would have been different had the roof and mechanicals been significantly newer or older.

So if all the appropriate disclosures and inspections have been made, and the real estate laws abided by in your state, I am not sure why anyone would think you are obligated to do more?

We did the same, although the house we bought was 64 years old. We needed to drill a new well, repair two chimneys, replace the plumbing, heating and electrical systems, as well as update the entire thing. The price we paid reflected the condition. After 5 years, lots of sweat equity and money, the house is the way we want it and if we were to sell it now it would easily sell for more than double what we have into it. Partly because everything is new and partly because the way real estate values have increased in our area.

 

[_19disnA]

Concealing a known issue/defect is different from buying an older home and then making upgrades. Buyer is required to disclose known defects (probably true no matter where you live), that is what the majority of the conversation has been about.

 

[mnrose]

It really does depend on state. In Minnesota, a seller can opt to do NO disclosure of the property's condition (typically called an "as is" sale), BUT if you do opt to do a disclosure, you are obligated to UPDATE it if you learn of new defects in the property between the time you made your initial disclosure and the time the sale actually happens. In Minnesota, I'd say OP would be required to update. If the buyers have already taken this into account in their offer (e.g., they know the roof will need to be redone soonish, but they are getting it at a fair price), then it's not going to affect the sale at all. OTOH, if they are blissfully ignorant and find it in the 30 days after that it's a problem, they may well come back at the seller....and if it's discovered that seller was TOLD this problem and did not tell them, in Minnesota, slam dunk case in favor of seller.

That being said, laws vary SUBSTANTIALLY from state to state. And, OP may be in a state where a good faith disclosure is made as of a "date certain" and that's that. Any issues which arise (or become known) after that date need not be disclosed. OP is best advised to follow the counsel of their agent and/or attorney.

 

[Liz]

This is in Utah.

 

[tvguy]

It really does depend on state. In Minnesota, a seller can opt to do NO disclosure of the property's condition (typically called an "as is" sale), BUT if you do opt to do a disclosure, you are obligated to UPDATE it if you learn of new defects in the property between the time you made your initial disclosure and the time the sale actually happens. In Minnesota, I'd say OP would be required to update. If the buyers have already taken this into account in their offer (e.g., they know the roof will need to be redone soonish, but they are getting it at a fair price), then it's not going to affect the sale at all. OTOH, if they are blissfully ignorant and find it in the 30 days after that it's a problem, they may well come back at the seller....and if it's discovered that seller was TOLD this problem and did not tell them, in Minnesota, slam dunk case in favor of seller.

That being said, laws vary SUBSTANTIALLY from state to state. And, OP may be in a state where a good faith disclosure is made as of a "date certain" and that's that. Any issues which arise (or become known) after that date need not be disclosed. OP is best advised to follow the counsel of their agent and/or attorney.

I think "As Is Sales" are an option in every state.
And at least in California, if it is a Probate sale, you are exempt from disclosure laws since normally in that instance the seller inherited the house, and didn't live there so no way for them to know if there are issues.

 

[nkereina]

Thing is, if OP replaces roof, the value if the house goes up.

If the buyer gets a house with a brand new roof, the selling price should increase accordingly. The age of the current roof should already be disclosed somewhere. Simply make it clear to the buyers that you are happy to have someone make the requested repairs but because of the age of the roof there is unlikely to be any warranty on those repairs.

This is a great point, and quite possibly the reason the buyers requested a repair rather than a replacement. Chances are they didn't want to pay more for the home, and would rather roll the dice with the repairs. That is their prerogative.

I also "think" if you as a seller accept an offer with an FHA or VA specifically mentions as the lender, and they say the house needs a new roof, you are on the hook for a new roof.

It may vary by state, but the buyer should have the option to decline a repair requested by the investor. The buyer would then need to either secure different financing or withdraw their offer, if the investor won't approve. Most contracts are contingent on obtaining financing anyhow. If anyone who accepted an FHA or VA offer did so knowing they could be on the hook for thousands of dollars potentially, no one would accept those offers. The buyers that don't accept those offers are usually trying to avoid the hassle of the additional inspection, and the time consuming process it takes for both parties to close those loans. The bank and the government have additional legwork to do, and we all know how those two industries operate. LOL!

Buyer is required to disclose known defects

But is needing a new roof a known defect? If the roofer the OP hired told the OP that she has a water leak because of a faulty roof, then yes, I would agree. But if there are no leaks and the roof is otherwise functional, one roofer's opinion that a new roof is imminent wouldn't really be a defect to report. Everyone would be on notice of that to begin with, because the age of the roof is known by all parties.

 

[monsterkitty]

The buyer had it inspected. The inspector did not say to repair the roof. Here if the inspector fails to catch a problem, the inspector is now responsible for that problem if it becomes an issue.

We bought a new build in December 2001. The city inspector passed off on that new build. Right before our year of repair work was up, we brought in our own inspector. He caught that two beams in the roof were cracked and had to be replaced. A few months later we had a big blizzard. If we wouldn't have had the beams repaired the roof would have collapsed. A few houses down from us did have their roof collapse. The city's insurance had to pay for the repairs as their inspectors failed to catch the problem.

 

[tvguy]

It may vary by state, but the buyer should have the option to decline a repair requested by the investor. The buyer would then need to either secure different financing or withdraw their offer, if the investor won't approve. Most contracts are contingent on obtaining financing anyhow. If anyone who accepted an FHA or VA offer did so knowing they could be on the hook for thousands of dollars potentially, no one would accept those offers. The buyers that don't accept those offers are usually trying to avoid the hassle of the additional inspection, and the time consuming process it takes for both parties to close those loans. The bank and the government have additional legwork to do, and we all know how those two industries operate. LOL!

One of the TV stations here did a story on a FHA mortgage falling through because they (FHA) wanted something done (I don't recall what) that was a violation of local building codes. Always fun when you have two government agencies fighting with each other.

 

[DisMike]

Thank you for all the replies. We are 100% on board with disclosing this new information, but I don't believe our realtor wants to (because she doesn't think it is required.) Maybe she is afraid the buyer will back out of the purchase and we don't have a back up buyer.

We already know our buyer doesn't want a price reduction to cover repairs. We offered to do that when we first got the list of things to be fixed and the reply came back that she just wanted the repairs done. That was before we got the new roof information.

We don't think the buyer's home inspector did a very good job. We recently had our house painted inside and haven't put our smoke detectors back up. There was no mention on the inspection report to install smoke detectors, which seems like such an obvious thing.

There is a real estate attorney where I work so I am going to talk to him tomorrow if he is in. Thanks again everyone!

I'm not 100% certain about this since I'm not a lawyer but I'm relatively sure that if someone asks you specifically if there are any issues and you say "no" fulling knowing that the statement was false and they use that information to enter into a contract (which is what a home sale is), then you have defrauded them and you are open to a lawsuit. Your realtor is full of it. Unfortunately, many realtors seem to have little to no ethics.

 

[DisMike]

The buyer had it inspected. The inspector did not say to repair the roof. Here if the inspector fails to catch a problem, the inspector is now responsible for that problem if it becomes an issue.

I believe that if the seller knows about an issue (which if a roofer says you have then a good lawyer will use that against you) that an inspector doesn't catch and the seller doesn't disclose it, the seller is still on the hook should the buyer sue. The inspector may be also but the inspector is not a roofing expert. The roofers are. Too much risk and frankly, dishonest. I would, however, get a second opinion on the roof before doing anything else.