Retheme Splash Mountain?

[snowwhite84]

While the Remus stories originate from African folklore, I think it’s important to remember that the stories we are discussing were written by a white man. There are many problems with the way Harris represented the original stories. There are a number of good essays online you can read that lay out why Harris’ works are racist, even though they are based on black culture. The stories as Harris wrote them are a classic example of white revisionism.

 

[Lumpy1106]

I'm more worried about the steamboat and Tom Sawyer's island being cancelled.
Let's all pretend slavery didn't exist or eliminate one of the nation's greatest writers. I don't see how that helps eliminate racism to erase our history.

You know, there's a really good chance the steamboat is just a steamboat, and the island is just a quiet place for kids to run around.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

While the Remus stories originate from African folklore, I think it’s important to remember that the stories we are discussing were written by a white man. There are many problems with the way Harris represented the original stories. There are a number of good essays online you can read that lay out why Harris’ works are racist, even though they are based on black culture. The stories as Harris wrote them are a classic example of white revisionism.

So why not have a ride with African folklore rather than just eliminate African folklore and replace it with a German Fairytale (Frog Prince)

 

[Lumpy1106]

While the Remus stories originate from African folklore, I think it’s important to remember that the stories we are discussing were written by a white man. There are many problems with the way Harris represented the original stories. There are a number of good essays online you can read that lay out why Harris’ works are racist, even though they are based on black culture. The stories as Harris wrote them are a classic example of white revisionism.

THIS EXACTLY is why I had changed my mind about changing the ride. You have to dig REALLY deep in order to be offended by SM if this is what you are basing your objections on, and let's be real here, almost nobody is doing that.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I acknowledge that there are clearly some issues with SOTS. But some of the opinions here treat it as if it was meant to be a documentary with claims that mistreatment of slaves never occurred. In my experience, very few films that have ever come out of Hollywood reflect reality. Even today, so-called "historical dramas" take huge liberties with the actual historical events. And the harsh realities of world history are generally not considered suitable fare for children's films/cartoons.

"The Princess and the Frog" is set in 1926. One could easily make the argument that the depictions of race relations in that film could also be characterized as "white-washed" (no pun intended). And the Voodoo priest, Dr. Facilier, could very easily be seen by some as a racist stereotype.

I wonder if people 50 or 100 years from now will view "The Princess and the Frog" through the same lens as today's audiences?

Hopefully, these comments are taken in the manner they're intended... as an honest conversation.

 

[snowwhite84]

THIS EXACTLY is why I had changed my mind about changing the ride. You have to dig REALLY deep in order to be offended by SM if this is what you are basing your objections on, and let's be real here, almost nobody is doing that.

I do agree the association isn’t there for most people. When I signed off from this thread a week ago, I said this wasn’t my hill to die on. There are way bigger problems in the world. But the stories are very much racist, and it makes sense to me that Disney would aim to move away from it. I understand the disappointment from a nostalgic standpoint, but nothing ever really stays the same. We move forward.

Also I often see a response here and in other online communities of something like “People get so offended...” But we have two groups here: one offended by racial undertones in a family vacation spot, and one offended that a theme park is changing a ride from one cartoon to another.

 

[Tonyz]

Nope, leave the original theme alone. If they want a Princess and the Frog theme, build a new ride (this is not even a political opinion, I just want more rides lol).

Exactly! How is this political?? I am all for BLM, social justice, etc. I think Tiana and PatF should have a placement in the parks even thought I don't like the movie.

But I love Splash Mountain as well and don't want it to change like this.

 

[snowwhite84]

I acknowledge that there are clearly some issues with SOTS. But some of the opinions here treat it as if it was meant to be a documentary with claims that mistreatment of slaves never occurred. In my experience, very few films that have ever come out of Hollywood reflect reality. Even today, so-called "historical dramas" take huge liberties with the actual historical events. And the harsh realities of world history are generally not considered suitable fare for children's films/cartoons.

"The Princess and the Frog" is set in 1926. One could easily make the argument that the depictions of race relations in that film could also be characterized as "white-washed" (no pun intended). And the Voodoo priest, Dr. Facilier, could very easily be seen by some as a racist stereotype.

I wonder if people 50 or 100 years from now will view "The Princess and the Frog" through the same lens as today's audiences?

Hopefully, these comments are taken in the manner they're intended... as an honest conversation.

Yes, but then maybe 50 to 100 years from now, they would then change the ride again accordingly. Things constantly evolve.

 

[Serrina89]

I'm excited for the change. I'm a big fan of the work that Walt Disney did to create a whole new world. I've watched every single disney history documentary I could get my hands on and the one thing that is always mentioned is that "Disney will never be finished. It will always change." Politics aside, I think the ride changing is a good thing. We adults are getting older and Disney has to change to cater to the younger generation. My sister's favorite ride (13) is Splash Mountain and when I told her about the change she was super excited. She said she had no connection to the actual story but loved the length, drops, water cannons, and singing animal animatronics. She was also excited about it politically, because it tells her that Disney cares about her (being a black individual). That is what the younger generation is looking for. More eco-friendly options, no bullying, and building a country they can feel proud to be a part of.

On the political side too, I've never been a fan of uncle remus. I feel like it is a whitewashing on how slavery actually was. It showed a jolly ole former slave telling most likely his former master's children a couple of stories. In the real world, Do you really think he was happy? How he must have been beat by his former master? How his back must have had a lattice of welts. How his children may have been sold to never be seen again. How his wife may have been raped in front of him and he could do nothing about it? In addition to the tar baby narrative. We probably can all agree that the ride doesn't denote this? But aren't we in a sense altering history, the story, by deleting problematic moments and glorifying pieces and changing the tar to honey. Too me it's almost like 1984 modifying history until history states that slaves were indentured servants not slaves. That's why I believe, keeping the ride is problematic. We are in a time now, where we are acknowledging that our country's history isn't all that we were taught in school. It's problematic, and not the same experience for all. I'm all for it.

As a Black person, was I bothered about the history......yes.....did i ride it all the time also yes......Would I have stopped going to Disney if it didn't change? No....but do I feel like Disney respects Black People more....yes.

 

[goofystitch]

Erase history and tradition - that'll just make everything better, right Disney? As I said before, you can find something offensive about anything if you look hard enough. So disappointing.

 

[snowwhite84]

I'm excited for the change. I'm a big fan of the work that Walt Disney did to create a whole new world. I've watched every single disney history documentary I could get my hands on and the one thing that is always mentioned is that "Disney will never be finished. It will always change." Politics aside, I think the ride changing is a good thing. We adults are getting older and Disney has to change to cater to the younger generation. My sister's favorite ride (13) is Splash Mountain and when I told her about the change she was super excited. She said she had no connection to the actual story but loved the length, drops, water cannons, and singing animal animatronics. She was also excited about it politically, because it tells her that Disney cares about her (being a black individual). That is what the younger generation is looking for. More eco-friendly options, no bullying, and building a country they can feel proud to be a part of.

On the political side too, I've never been a fan of uncle remus. I feel like it is a whitewashing on how slavery actually was. It showed a jolly ole former slave telling most likely his former master's children a couple of stories. In the real world, Do you really think he was happy? How he must have been beat by his former master? How his back must have had a lattice of welts. How his children may have been sold to never be seen again. How his wife may have been raped in front of him and he could do nothing about it? In addition to the tar baby narrative. We probably can all agree that the ride doesn't denote this? But aren't we in a sense altering history, the story, by deleting problematic moments and glorifying pieces and changing the tar to honey. Too me it's almost like 1984 modifying history until history states that slaves were indentured servants not slaves. That's why I believe, keeping the ride is problematic. We are in a time now, where we are acknowledging that our country's history isn't all that we were taught in school. It's problematic, and not the same experience for all. I'm all for it.

As a Black person, was I bothered about the history......yes.....did i ride it all the time also yes......Would I have stopped going to Disney if it didn't change? No....but do I feel like Disney respects Black People more....yes.

Love how you spelled this out beat by beat. I have a degree in American literature. In my posts I kept compelling people to look online for academic essays on the stories, because I am white and not a professor and I don’t feel overly qualified to be the voice on this. But the Uncle Remus stories are textbook white revisionism. It. Is. Not. A. Nice. Story.

I am 36, I have a 19 year old sister. Splash is her favorite ride. I just spoke to her, she is through the roof excited. She and my daughter are already planning a full Tiana day when we get back to the parks.

 

[kimmar067]

If this article is any indication, expect Riverside to be demolished soon. Or at a minimum, they may need to replace the carpets often.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment...ts-bed-and-breakfast-auschwitz-214357857.html

....wow.....and I'm with ya on the "carpets".

 

[WorldOfPooh]

Love how you spelled this out beat by beat. I have a degree in American literature. In my posts I kept compelling people to look online for academic essays on the stories, because I am white and not a professor and I don’t feel overly qualified to be the voice on this. But the Uncle Remus stories are textbook white revisionism. It. Is. Not. A. Nice. Story.

I am 36, I have a 19 year old sister. Splash is her favorite ride. I just spoke to her, she is through the roof excited. She and my daughter are already planning a full Tiana day when we get back to the parks.

An argument can be made that Princess and the Frog is whitewashed. It's a German Fairy tale and has nothing to do with an African creator or story.

The only other African Disney story is Lion King and there are no Africans in Lion King..
This is why I think it's important to keep the African oral tradition and culture of Uncle Remus preserved. Because it was rebelling against the White slave masters who were trying to erase all the history, education and culture of West Africa from the slaves.

 

[yulilin3]

An argument can be made that Princess and the Frog is whitewashed. It's a German Fairy tale and has nothing to do with an African creator or story.

The only other African Disney story is Lion King and there are no Africans in Lion King..
This is why I think it's important to keep the African oral tradition and culture of Uncle Remus preserved. Because it was rebelling against the White slave masters who were trying to erase all the history, education and culture of West Africa from the slaves.

Um excuse me? every single character in the Lion King is African

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

While the Remus stories originate from African folklore, I think it’s important to remember that the stories we are discussing were written by a white man. There are many problems with the way Harris represented the original stories. There are a number of good essays online you can read that lay out why Harris’ works are racist, even though they are based on black culture. The stories as Harris wrote them are a classic example of white revisionism.

Interesting. I'll have to read up on this. MANY years ago, I recall hearing that the point of Brer Rabbit stories was that Brer Rabbit represented the slave who was smart and savvy and got the best of Brer Fox and Brer Bear, who represented the ignorant masters. Perhaps that was a completely inaccurate characterization of the stories, but through that lens, slave owners are the villains and the slave who outsmarts them is the protagonist.

 

[snowwhite84]

Interesting. I'll have to read up on this. MANY years ago, I recall hearing that the point of Brer Rabbit stories was that Brer Rabbit represented the slave who was smart and savvy and got the best of Brer Fox and Brer Bear, who represented the ignorant masters. Perhaps that was a completely inaccurate characterization of the stories, but through that lens, slave owners are the villains and the slave who outsmarts them is the protagonist.

I appreciate this response, I encourage anyone interested to read up on this themselves. There are excellent articles you can find online spelling out why these stories are such classic examples of white revisionism from the era.

 

[jpakstis]

I wonder if people 50 or 100 years from now will view "The Princess and the Frog" through the same lens as today's audiences?

I could see that. As we keep evolving as a society, we have to keep interrogating our past.

The difference to me is that Disney knew SOTS was deeply problematic when they made it. It wasn’t hindsight. And decades later Disney knew about SOTS’ problematic history when they used it for Splash Mountain.

 

[snowwhite84]

An argument can be made that Princess and the Frog is whitewashed. It's a German Fairy tale and has nothing to do with an African creator or story.

The only other African Disney story is Lion King and there are no Africans in Lion King..
This is why I think it's important to keep the African oral tradition and culture of Uncle Remus preserved. Because it was rebelling against the White slave masters who were trying to erase all the history, education and culture of West Africa from the slaves.

A German fairytale being retold starring a black character is not whitewashing.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Yes, but then maybe 50 to 100 years from now, they would then change the ride again accordingly. Things constantly evolve.

I could see that. As we keep evolving as a society, we have to keep interrogating our past.

The difference to me is that Disney knew SOTS was deeply problematic when they made it. It wasn’t hindsight. And decades later Disney knew about SOTS’ problematic history when they used it for Splash Mountain.

I also wonder what the reaction will be if "Princess and the Frog" is deemed offensive sometime between now and 2022.

 

[snowwhite84]

So why not have a ride with African folklore rather than just eliminate African folklore and replace it with a German Fairytale (Frog Prince)

Is it really your argument that characters from Song of the South are more meaningful to black children in America than Disney’s first black princess?