Riviera?

[kboo]

I wanted to thank everyone that replied to my post. We eventually purchased 175 points and are excited to stay there this August (back to school vacation). We went there several times and loved the resort. The great thing about DVC over any other timeshare that there is a resort for everyone. So after reading all the pro's and con's , we decided it fit well for our family. The advice I would give to anyone, before they buy, is just to do there research and go with what works for you and your family.

Congratulations and welcome home!

We'll be back in August too!

 

[vnovabri]

I think Riviera is going to be a winner in many ways. It is beautiful. I like the skyliner access, and it seems like Disney has done a first rate job.

However, there are some potential problems. Biggest one - and this WILL affect EVERYONE who owns there - is the restrictions on resales. I had $25,000 saved in the bank as a down payment on some points at Riviera. I was going to buy. I told everyone I was going to buy. But then Disney announced their very idiotic restrictions and I pulled the plug.

What is the problem with the Resale Restrictions? One obvious thing is that, if you need to sell for some reason, you are probably not going to get as good a return on your resale, compared to some other properties. BUT THAT ISN'T THE BIGGEST PROBLEM. Here is the big problem: Over time, there WILL be resales at Riviera, and every one of those people will be locked into Riviera and ONLY Riviera. Imagine a time comes when 10% or even 20% of the owners are resale owners.

Now, look at it from the point of view of those resale owners, who can't go anywhere else. They will know that there will be NOTHING available after the 7 month window, because other DVC owners will be jumping in to reserve Riviera rooms. This means that those Riviera Resale Owners, who are now second class citizens in DVC like never before, will absolutely HAVE TO BOOK THEIR ROOMS DURING THE 7 TO 11 MONTH WINDOW. Even if they don't know their travel dates. Even if they don't plan to go that year. Sure, they can bank their points and use them, at Riviera, next year, but then when they bank their points for the following year, eventually, they are going to need to use them, or lose them. In order not to lose them, they will book early early early, so they can get a decent unit before all the Studios are snapped up. AND, if they can't use them, they will rent them out, which also means trying to get the most attractive units and seasons for their renters. Riviera will become perhaps the most rented DVC property, since many of the owners won't be able to use it, and won't have the access to other properties. Anyway, between the resale owners being motivated to reserve EARLY, either for themselves or for their renters, this will put greatly increased pressure on EVERYONE, including the other 90% or 80% of people who own Direct, and they will also have to start reserving very early, in order to make sure they get anything at all. My prediction is that the average reservation at Riviera will be done significantly earlier in the 11 month window than ANY other resort, on an average.

So, imagine yourself as a Direct owner. You weren't quite sure of your travel dates, so you didn't book at the crack of dawn on the 11 month window opening. Now it is 10 months out. There are no Tower studios available, of course. There are no Standard view studios available. There probably aren't even any Preferred View Studios, by the time you reach 10 months. All that you might be able to find is some 1 bedroom units, Preferred View, and they will cost you a lot more points. A 1 bedroom in the last 2 weeks of February will be 53 points per night on weekdays, and 63 points per night on weekends. Ouch. And those are Preferred View, since even the Standard View 1 bedrooms will also be gone.

Now, maybe I am going to be wrong here, though I can't imagine how. Every Riviera Resale, done by someone else, will decrease the effective quality and usefulness of Riviera for those who ARE NOT reselling.

What do you guys think?

This however does not take into account the effect of the 1/19/19 resale restrictions for the other resorts. By your theory all classic 14 resorts will be even harder to book as more resales are bought, but at the same time not effecting new resorts.

Also, some resorts are resold at a higher rate than others, so Riviera may not have a 10-20% resale rate as much as like AK would.

 

[Wakey]

I wanted to thank everyone that replied to my post. We eventually purchased 175 points and are excited to stay there this August (back to school vacation). We went there several times and loved the resort. The great thing about DVC over any other timeshare that there is a resort for everyone. So after reading all the pro's and con's , we decided it fit well for our family. The advice I would give to anyone, before they buy, is just to do there research and go with what works for you and your family.

Congratulations- no one can criticise a well researched and considered purchase of any DVC. I totally agree with the advice about visiting, and possibly staying as well, at least ask to look at a selection of rooms on site including the bad rooms you may end up in. This goes for any resort. I’ve found they are very different and it’s very clear not everyone likes every resort. Also after a stay if you are seriously considering buying, can change your opinion. Has happened to us. Boardwalk my wife did not like after visiting, after a stay it is her favourite resort. The atmosphere did not ‘hit’ us until we stayed. Animal Kingdom me and my wife loved, after staying not so much: the inability to walk or run anywhere only ‘hit’ us on the stay.

 

[McCrae]

Resale restrictions. If you need to sell this is not going to ever be a resort you get most of the capital outlay back when selling.

Too early to make such a bold prediction. I can easily see circumstances where resale prices could easily be above the current direct price.

 

[Soap_1984]

Too early to make such a bold prediction. I can easily see circumstances where resale prices could easily be above the current direct price.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[McCrae]

Can you elaborate on this?

If demand remains strong for staying at Disney and prices continue to increase to either buy direct or to stay on site at a Disney property there is a good chance that resale prices at Riviera will increase above the initial price. This is what has happened at other resorts. Granted that the resale restrictions may limit any increase compared to other resorts, but it won’t potentially stop prices increasing.

The idea that you can potentially sell any timeshare for a profit is unusual and should not be taken for granted. Best to always assume that you won’t get back any of your initial investment when purchasing DVC.

 

[Soap_1984]

If demand remains strong for staying at Disney and prices continue to increase to either buy direct or to stay on site at a Disney property there is a good chance that resale prices at Riviera will increase above the initial price. This is what has happened at other resorts. Granted that the resale restrictions may limit any increase compared to other resorts, but it won’t potentially stop prices increasing.

The idea that you can potentially sell any timeshare for a profit is unusual and should not be taken for granted. Best to always assume that you won’t get back any of your initial investment when purchasing DVC.

Seems very unlikely to me since prices have already dropped quite a bit, plus the restrictions plus they jack up sold out resorts as new resorts come online; as of now none of the resorts are priced above direct as far as I know.

Perhaps not impossible it goes above the original direct price offered, but I still very much doubt that it will. Also if you do the math, unless you are 20 years old at the time of purchase, I'm not sure how you actually do the math and save money buying riviera over just paying cash. And if you're financing you pretty much don't save money ever.

 

[McCrae]

Seems very unlikely to me since prices have already dropped quite a bit, plus the restrictions plus they jack up sold out resorts as new resorts come online; as of now none of the resorts are priced above direct as far as I know.

Perhaps not impossible it goes above the original direct price offered, but I still very much doubt that it will. Also if you do the math, unless you are 20 years old at the time of purchase, I'm not sure how you actually do the math and save money buying riviera over just paying cash. And if you're financing you pretty much don't save money ever.

You could have made a very similar argument with almost any new DVC resort regarding resale prices. Supply and demand for each resort is pushing up resale prices higher than the probably should be. Technically each year the price should decline. All contracts will expire worthless. I would never buy a timeshare with the expectations I will get any money back, let alone make a profit.

I bought BLT 10 years ago and If I sold now I would make 50% of my original investment. This is just crazy. Based on every other DVC resorts resale price movement over the last 10 years the probability is that Riviera resale prices will be above the initial cost.

The cash price staying at the Riviera is and always will be higher than the costs of owning DVC there.

 

[sethschroeder]

For example, for $10/pt more, you can book a room at VGF. So, if it costs 100 points, they pay $1k, and use their points.

Obviously, it wouldnt make sense for someone to do it often. But it could happen.

Can they though and where would the money go?

It seems the system amongst resorts needs to be equitable. The reason they can restrict is because they do it both in and out of the resort for resale. If they allowed RIV to use it at the OG then OG would need to be able to use it at RIV.

If they are pay $10/point since it's reservation specific it seems like it would need to be shared with the resort? I don't know enough on the contracts and FL laws though.

This is why the pay a one time fee makes the most sense. $100/point and your points are switch.

 

[Sandisw]

Can they though and where would the money go?

It seems the system amongst resorts needs to be equitable. The reason they can restrict is because they do it both in and out of the resort for resale. If they allowed RIV to use it at the OG then OG would need to be able to use it at RIV.

If they are pay $10/point since it's reservation specific it seems like it would need to be shared with the resort? I don't know enough on the contracts and FL laws though.

This is why the pay a one time fee makes the most sense. $100/point and your points are switch.

They can now with the language they included in RIV POS. It specifically states they can make different rules for different members and for the resale restrictions not only being suspended from time to time but put back in.

 

[Soap_1984]

You could have made a very similar argument with almost any new DVC resort regarding resale prices. Supply and demand for each resort is pushing up resale prices higher than the probably should be. Technically each year the price should decline. All contracts will expire worthless. I would never buy a timeshare with the expectations I will get any money back, let alone make a profit.

I bought BLT 10 years ago and If I sold now I would make 50% of my original investment. This is just crazy. Based on every other DVC resorts resale price movement over the last 10 years the probability is that Riviera resale prices will be above the initial cost.

The cash price staying at the Riviera is and always will be higher than the costs of owning DVC there.

Resale prices are not higher. It's simple math to determine whether it is a savings or not. Your last point is demonstrably not true so agree to disagree then.

We can check back in ten years, all I would say is riviera has already dropped 30-40% in value and you cannot manipulate the numbers. If there are availability issues or small contracts looking for tower studios the demand will be a problem and I can't see how prices go up since you cannot opt for another resort.

 

[sethschroeder]

They can now with the language they included in RIV POS. It specifically states they can make different rules for different members and for the resale restrictions not only being suspended from time to time but put back in.

No what I mean is I know they can make it for RIV but this would apply to other resorts when trading out/in. Can RIV just randomly change and the other resorts accept it or is there some process to it?

Seems like there has to be some breach if a minority ownership randomly starts to state we can trade out but you can't trade in.

How Riveria keeps its policies in place is one thing but this is basically about segregating OG Resale from RIV Resale on the resort to resort exchange.

 

[Spark65]

You can't use the current resales sold prices as fact. Most of these contracts being sold we are assuming people can't afford them, decided it was a mistake, etc but for the most part trying to get out of them quickly like a short sale. More historical data of resale is needed before you can make statements of what it's worth on the resale market.

You could even be wrong about your 30-40% maybe it will be 50% or it could end up being 20%. Only time will actually tell the actual value not people trying to create fact without real data.

 

[Sandisw]

No what I mean is I know they can make it for RIV but this would apply to other resorts when trading out/in. Can RIV just randomly change and the other resorts accept it or is there some process to it?

Seems like there has to be some breach if a minority ownership randomly starts to state we can trade out but you can't trade in.

How Riveria keeps its policies in place is one thing but this is basically about segregating OG Resale from RIV Resale on the resort to resort exchange.

I would venture that since they can change the rules for the points, they would be allowed, Now, I think if they did the per reservation charge, then maybe they’d take it from their own inventory.

Direct RIV points have trading rights at all resorts, so the resort is a member of BTVC...they would simply be changing the rules to allow all points to have those rights, or some type of trading rights.

Now, whose to say that if they allowed RIV resale points to be used elsewhere for a fee, they wouldn’t extend it to resale owners at the L14.

But, the way the language reads, they can remove the resale restriction of being only good at RiV any time they want, put in a policy that involves cash payments and create different rules for different members

Actual language attached

 

[Drewferin]

Not wanting to derail this forum, however what ever happened to that law suit thread about Riviera not being similar to other DVC resorts and hence can not be apart of the trading system?

 

[McCrae]

Resale prices are not higher. It's simple math to determine whether it is a savings or not. Your last point is demonstrably not true so agree to disagree then.

Resale prices for all resorts have increased over the last 10 years. My original point that it was too early to tell what will happen to the sale price of Riviera. Nothing said so far would suggest that point is wrong.

 

[Brian Carlisle]

Actual language attached

Is this document available online anywhere? If not, can one ask for it during a DVC tour (will be at WDW in latter part of January)? What is the document called?

Also, as a resale owner at AKV, can I ask for the similar document for AKV?

Thanks, while learning a lot reading these boards prior to the resale purchase, I feel as though I'm still missing a comprehensive view of the legal documents that make up DVC.

 

[Sandisw]

Is this document available online anywhere? If not, can one ask for it during a DVC tour (will be at WDW in latter part of January)? What is the document called?

Also, as a resale owner at AKV, can I ask for the similar document for AKV?

Thanks, while learning a lot reading these boards prior to the resale purchase, I feel as though I'm still missing a comprehensive view of the legal documents that make up DVC.

This is part of documents you get from buying. They do not usually give out ahead of time, but of course, even when you agree to purchase, you have 10 days to cancel if you don’t like anything you read, But, no harm in asking. You won’t find them online anywhere.

In terms of resale, I have never gotten the POS documents as they go to the original owner, When asked about it via DVC years ago, was told to contact the broker,,,brokers said they don’t have them

 

[McCrae]

Resale prices are not higher. It's simple math to determine whether it is a savings or not. Your last point is demonstrably not true so agree to disagree then.

We can check back in ten years, all I would say is riviera has already dropped 30-40% in value and you cannot manipulate the numbers. If there are availability issues or small contracts looking for tower studios the demand will be a problem and I can't see how prices go up since you cannot opt for another resort.

The 8 year sales record for DVC points in December and the big increase in Riviera point sales suggest that the concerns you have expressed are not such a concern for other people. Nothing indicates that Riviera sales will be different to any other DVC resort.

 

[Wakey]

It will be very interesting to see how Riviera pans out. I for one am not a great fan (but as I say never stayed so my opinion could change) but that is a personal decision and there is a DVC for everyone. The resale restrictions still put me off- whether they are putting people off generally though, or just people who know and care about such matters remains to be seen. The sales are said to be record for December, and that healthy sales may or may not continue- I would caution it did open December and the only other resort to open December was Old Key West- so if it was not the biggest selling December, something would perhaps be seriously wrong as there is bound to be a lot of pent up demand who wanted to see it first, and of course the huge media events etc all over Youtube etc. If that was paid for advertising, I dread to think how much it would have cost. They are also pushing it very hard- the hardest sales push I have personally witnessed at WDW- lots of posters etc- but I think I underestimated why it will probably sell so well.
It also has a massive advantage initially in that a large proportion of people, at least staying on property and many off property guests will ride the Skyliner out of necessity or curiosity and where does it go- straight through Riviera. So whilst it is easy to avoid say Copper Creek if staying on property, many are taken straight into Riviera- that may prove in the long run to be an amazing sales tool. The footfall or just Gondola view of visitors who do not own must be massive compared to virtually any other resort- and seeing is selling. I think many of us may have underestimated what a sales tool having thousands of non owners travel through the resort daily is- imagine all those staying at Caribbean Beach, having just dropped $5k on a vacation, learning they can make the upgrade to Riviera and go for 50 years for a lot less, whilst Riviera is rubbed in their face every time they go to Epcot. Or the visitor who stays in a villa as they see the room rates too high, to be going straight through Riviera on their Skyline ride from HWS to Epcot and learning when they buy in (which they can do for a monthly cost) the daily cost of those Tower Studios is on a par with the villa they are in. The more I think about it, the more I think this will drive a crazy number of sales until the resort sells out.
So it is way too early to say how it will do on resale. And I would also caution, just because it sells well direct in the first years does not necessarily mean it will be popular long run, especially with the restrictions. But maybe DVD were correct and the restrictions will not affect it- who knows!