Rumor - Electrifying Tomorrowland Speedway (Tesla?)

The CM's handle that just fine - why couldn't they exchange far less messy (and toxic and flammable) sealed batteries instead?

Because if they choose a higher energy density chemistry battery such as most Li-ion flavors, it has the potential of thermal runaway. Are all the CM's going to be trained on proper techniques on how to address a Li-ion fire? It is not a simple fire extinguisher. This goes back to my previous post about using a sealed AGM or VRLA Pb acid battery, but this is not an innovative battery technology.

"If a Li-ion battery overheats, hisses or bulges, immediately move the device away from flammable materials and place it on a non-combustible surface. If at all possible, remove the battery and put it outdoors to burn out. Simply disconnecting the battery from charge may not stop its destructive path. "

"Heat combined with a full charge is said to induce more stress to Li-ion than regular cycling. Keep the battery and a device away from sun exposure and store in a cool place at a partial charge. Exceeding the recommended charge current by ultra-fast changing also harms Li-ion. Nickel-cadmium is the only chemistry that accepts ultra-fast charging with minimal stress. ".

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_concerns_with_li_ion
I will disagree with their last sentence as we used NiMH and proved ultra-fast charging with ultra-low stress far exceeding any battery known at that time.
 
If anywhere, I would feel the most safe @ WDW knowing the CM's had been properly trained. As they say, you are in more danger in your car on the way to the park. Regardless, from your link;
There are also safety concerns with the electric vehicle. However, statistics shows that EVs produce fewer fires compared to vehicles with the internal combustion engine (ICE) per billion kilometers driven. According to the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), over 400,000 ICE powered cars burned down in the 1980s. Today, 90 fires per one billion with ICE vehicles are considered normal; reports say that Tesla had only two fires per one billion driven kilometer.
The article also talks about non-reputable third party battery suppliers and improper use adding to the risk. OK, but if anywhere, WDW would have the most control over the supplier and battery use. Not only that, but if a battery was to catch fire, it would actually not be that difficult to evacuate and isolate the one car and let it burn out. Wouldn't the same concern apply to the cell phones carried by the guests BTW? Disney has no control over the batteries in those.

Which is all to say, while I can appreciate your expertise and concern, this does not seem like a deal breaker for replacing gas with electric cars on TS.
 


Just got back and didn't think twice about ignoring the speedway. Super Cool for kiddos <10 but once your kids get in their teens, that's a pretty lame ride. and Upgrade would certainly make me smile!
 
Which is all to say, while I can appreciate your expertise and concern, this does not seem like a deal breaker for replacing gas with electric cars on TS.

Oh, I'm not saying it can't be done. My point is that the selection of the battery/energy storage is not trivial. To that end, the concern I would have is the manufacturing repeatability of the quality of that battery AND the controlling software. I don't think there is any software on the current ICE vehicles at Tomorrowland Speedway.

The NFPA statistics that are published on fires may not account for the duty cycle that Tomorrowland Speedway could endure. Also, the article does state that to "keep the battery and a device away from sun exposure and store in a cool place at a partial charge". How would that be done in the current configuration at Tomorrowland Speedway? I would think a covered load/unload tunnel might dramatically help bring the temperature down depending on dwell time.

Regarding letting a car burn out that is true. But, if they have a bank of batteries constantly being charged, it should be done in isolated chambers as to not let one cell propagate/cascade a potential fire to another cell. We tested Li-ion pouch cells to failure and it really is a volatile event with little to no warning of the impending failure.

In addition, I would think Reedy Creek Fire Department is, or would have to be, trained as well.
 


Please understand that I am not at all familiar with this whole issue, but a few questions do arise in my mind.
My point is that the selection of the battery/energy storage is not trivial. To that end, the concern I would have is the manufacturing repeatability of the quality of that battery AND the controlling software.
Wouldn't a battery manufacturer (like Tesla) understand this and wouldn't the engineers be considering these factors when designing the vehicles?
The NFPA statistics that are published on fires may not account for the duty cycle that Tomorrowland Speedway could endure.
There is certainly a lot of data available on this. Temperatures, ride time, station time, etc are all very well known. If the NFPA (whoever that is) statistics don't account for this load factor shouldn't it be easy enough to determine with the available data?
Also, the article does state that to "keep the battery and a device away from sun exposure and store in a cool place at a partial charge".
That sounds like storage conditions, not actual operational conditions. Couldn't the Speedway vehicles could be designed to provide cover and ventilation for the batteries?
I would think Reedy Creek Fire Department is, or would have to be, trained as well.
I would think RCFD already has training in how to handle battery fires considering at a minimum how many electric cars (Tesla and others) that are parked in the lots on any given day. Still, training for these particular vehicles shouldn't be a serious roadblock, should it?
 
Please understand that I am not at all familiar with this whole issue, but a few questions do arise in my mind.

I appreciate the questions for discussion.

Wouldn't a battery manufacturer (like Tesla) understand this and wouldn't the engineers be considering these factors when designing the vehicles?

Absolutely. What we did is get the actual power/energy map (for example a world famous race course for a Formula 1 team) and run testing in our labs. We would monitor voltage/temperature/pressure/Ah throughput and many other variables based on the actual application.

Without going into heavy detail, we would try to maximize our energy, but it often came with cell/module failures; we pushed the limits to failure to quantify our data.

There is certainly a lot of data available on this. Temperatures, ride time, station time, etc are all very well known. If the NFPA (whoever that is) statistics don't account for this load factor shouldn't it be easy enough to determine with the available data?

That’s exactly what I would be doing, right now, if there are plans for an electrification of TS. I would run the lab maps and then go out to a parking lot on WDW property and start to gather empirical data. I would mimic the application as best we can and really dissect the data. There would have to be strong, repetitive data that demonstrates an ultra-safe vehicle in this application.

That sounds like storage conditions, not actual operational conditions. Couldn't the Speedway vehicles could be designed to provide cover and ventilation for the batteries?

You could use passive ventilation (e.g. heat sinks), but this goes back to the battery/cell architecture and heat rejection. I think you’re right that a safety “shell” should be used, behind the passengers, as an additional safety measure. You also want the passenger evacuation method to be quick and simple, should an event occur; I haven’t ridden TS in decades so I do not know how easy it is for a child/adult to evacuate the vehicle.

I would think RCFD already has training in how to handle battery fires considering at a minimum how many electric cars (Tesla and others) that are parked in the lots on any given day. Still, training for these particular vehicles shouldn't be a serious roadblock, should it?

I don’t see the training as a roadblock whatsoever. It’s marrying up the type of battery/cell selected with the appropriate extinguishing method. In our case, we used Lith-X.
 
Oh, I'm not saying it can't be done. My point is that the selection of the battery/energy storage is not trivial. To that end, the concern I would have is the manufacturing repeatability of the quality of that battery AND the controlling software. I don't think there is any software on the current ICE vehicles at Tomorrowland Speedway.

The NFPA statistics that are published on fires may not account for the duty cycle that Tomorrowland Speedway could endure. Also, the article does state that to "keep the battery and a device away from sun exposure and store in a cool place at a partial charge". How would that be done in the current configuration at Tomorrowland Speedway? I would think a covered load/unload tunnel might dramatically help bring the temperature down depending on dwell time.

Regarding letting a car burn out that is true. But, if they have a bank of batteries constantly being charged, it should be done in isolated chambers as to not let one cell propagate/cascade a potential fire to another cell. We tested Li-ion pouch cells to failure and it really is a volatile event with little to no warning of the impending failure.

In addition, I would think Reedy Creek Fire Department is, or would have to be, trained as well.
The main reason why this rumor gets traction again and again is because TS is in such bad need of an update. Have you ridden Autopia in DL? It's MUCH better, and that was upgraded 20 years ago (and frankly is in need of its own refresh);
DL Autopia
Look at that! The cue was re-located over the top of the service garage - THAT'S where you store and charge the batteries.

Here's the thing though; both Autopia and TS are located entirely outdoors because the cars run on gas. If you converted to electric the sky is the limit as far as theming is concerned. But you know, we already have much more sophisticated, much heavier electric cars that have been in use for decades in Test Track and Radiator Springs Racers. Granted those are "slot cars" and don't have the batteries. Maybe that's the solution; provide power through the guide rail while still making the cars drive-able.
 
I think a Tesla x Disney sponsorship would be a cool thing. I think it would be nice to have Tesla superchargers installed at the parking lots for the parks and some resorts. I think tesla sponsoring tomorrowland speedway is a really cool and at the same time horrible idea.

I think having electric cars instead of gas ones on the track would be awesome. But if you have a sponsor for the ride it can sometimes kill the


😆😆
 
To me, Tomorrowland is the vision of the future from a 1960's era perspective. I would imagine that they were still talking about the 'flying car' in the 60's. So, I vote for that. I don't know how they will make that happen...I'm just the ideas guy.
 
They should consider powering the cars with the hopes and dreams of the riders. Disney are worldwide specialists in that area after all.
 
NFPA is the national fire protection association

with a swap out methodoogy the technical challenges are limited

with the ventilation opportunites of a go cart external thermal induced failures are not an issue even at 100f air temps it takes 150f+ to contribute to falures
 
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I think a Tesla x Disney sponsorship would be a cool thing. I think it would be nice to have Tesla superchargers installed at the parking lots for the parks and some resorts. I think tesla sponsoring tomorrowland speedway is a really cool and at the same time horrible idea.

I think having electric cars instead of gas ones on the track would be awesome. But if you have a sponsor for the ride it can sometimes kill the


😆😆

Hopefully, someone at Disney Pixar is advocating for a follow up Cars movie to introduce BEV (battery electric vehicle) car characters. That may provide the spark to look into electrifying Autopia and TS.
 
That would be interesting to see it work. Wounded if they could recharge car battery when loading and unloading people ?
 
That would be interesting to see it work. Wounded if they could recharge car battery when loading and unloading people ?
I was thinking that at the loading and unloading platform they could have charging stations that look like the tesla superchargers.
 
I'd expect an inductive (no wires) charging mechanism in the load/unload area. Doubt they would want to use a plug-in kind of charger because of the extra effort to plug/unplug all the time.
 
I'd expect an inductive (no wires) charging mechanism in the load/unload area. Doubt they would want to use a plug-in kind of charger because of the extra effort to plug/unplug all the time.
They could just put something like a supercharger as the filler for the space between the entrance and exit of the car
 
I would like this attraction to be updated to electric vehicles but I don’t think it’s high on their priority list.
 

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