Sensors on ECVs

[cmwade77]

I would like to see a picture of the sensor. Maybe time for another trip to the park. But it depends really on what type of sensor is being used. I strongly suspect it is a basic (industrial) infrared proximity sensor. It could also be an ultrasonic "sonar" sensor but those aren't usually susceptable to getting dirty and needing to be cleaned as an earlier post mentioned being told about these scooters. It sounds like getting dirty caused the sensor to read a false positive, which means covering them will do the same thing.

This is a bit different that most auto flush sensors. Those (again, usually) measure changes in the sensor response. the sensor works by emitting an infrared light and also has an IR receiver that measures how much, if any, IR light gets reflected back. This is how most proximity sensors work. But because lots of things affect how much IR that reciever detects (changes in ambient light, temperature, just lots of things) the flush valves can't just set a threshold at which point it decides that a person is there or not, this would make them likely (as early models did) to go off all the time for no reason (something that still happens on failing units). What it does is take lots of readings and sets a baseline for unoccupied. You can see it flashing each time it gets a threshold reading and stops when you move away from it. So blocking the sensor here, in the first part tells it that someone is in front of it and it should not flush, much the same as putting it infront of an ECV sensor would tell it not to allow the scooter to drive. But on the toilet valve it goes further by, over time, ruining the baseline to the point that after a few minutes even taking off the postit note would not restore normal function, for a little while anyway.

If it is measuring differences in IR, then wouldn't the post it note work if it were placed on there before turning on the ECV? I am assuming that would be when it would take the baseline, because wouldn't things like if it is daytime or night time, etc. effect that? So if the sensor was completely covered when the baseline was being taken, then there would be no changes in IR, so presumably, the sensors would essentially no longer work, right?

I also question, what happens if I am on an ECV in a queue and end up behind one of these ECVs that won't move because it thinks the pole that holds the chain/etc. is a person. Obviously the pole will not move, but the ECV won't move until the pole does. Now I am stuck behind them with no way forward and possibly no way backward, especially if there is another one behind me.

Disney really hasn't thought this one through at all.

 

[Disneylvr]

Any updates? Are the sensors still only on ECV's at the Magic Kingdom?

 

[cmwade77]

I just sent the following email to Disney:

I have been talking with people that have recently rented ECVs while they were at Disney World and apparently in the Magic Kingdom they now have sensors on them that are supposed to slow down or stop the ECVs when people get to close.

First off, while this sounds like a good idea on the surface, the reality is that those who need ECVs often have preexisting conditions that could be aggravated by such sudden stops as these, making this highly dangerous for the rider.

Secondly, while what I describe is what is supposed to happen, often these sensors are detecting even poles in the queues as people and refusing to move forward, they end up having to put the ECV in neutral and move it manually, which defeats the purpose of having an ECV and they may not even have the strength to do so.

This also means that this potentially affects people with their own mobility devices in that if there is an ECV in front of them in a queue that refuses to move they can't go forward and potentially there could be another one behind them, so they couldn't go backwards.

Thirdly, taking control out of the drivers hands and putting it in technology is always a bad idea. Sensors that provided feedback to the driver when something is too close, i.e. with a vibration of the handles that gets stronger the closer they get would actually be helpful, but removing control and causing EXTREMELY sudden stops like this is dangerous not just for the driver, but for those around them, as they don't expect a sudden stop for no apparent reason like these are doing.

For all of these reasons and more, I strongly request that you please remove the ECVs with these sensors from service until these sensors can be removed, as they are extremely dangerous for all.

I would not suggest copying and pasting, but I would suggest putting something similar together in your own words and send it Disney through their contact us link at:
https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/help/email/

Hopefully if they get enough complaints they will get the hint.

 

[Simba's Mom]

:::ahem:::

I wonder what would happen if the Parks units that are equipped with sensors had a Post-it Note "accidentally" dropped over the sensor?

Is it like when we put a Post-It over the auto-flushing toilets in the bathroom? Would it stop the scooter completely? Or is there an override that would then allow it to function "normally" without the sensor interfering?

This is all just conjecture, mind you...

...Unless someone wants to try it, and report back!

You have a very good sugg---I mean, conjecture here. I'd really like to see someone try it and report back. And please, please tell me that these "wonderful" sensors are only on the in-park ECVs, not on any of the outside rental companies' scooters. Although the last time I was at WDW, I noted that the vast majority of the ECVs I saw were in park rentals.

 

[cmwade77]

You have a very good sugg---I mean, conjecture here. I'd really like to see someone try it and report back. And please, please tell me that these "wonderful" sensors are only on the in-park ECVs, not on any of the outside rental companies' scooters. Although the last time I was at WDW, I noted that the vast majority of the ECVs I saw were in park rentals.

I don't know of any rental company that would touch such sensors with a thousand foot pole, they are a liability, not a safety feature.

And I definitely know Gold Mobility doesn't have them, I have asked, it seems they think pretty much what those on here do about them.

 

[cobright]

If it is measuring differences in IR, then wouldn't the post it note work if it were placed on there before turning on the ECV? I am assuming that would be when it would take the baseline, because wouldn't things like if it is daytime or night time, etc. effect that?

Without a picture I can't say for sure, but what has been described sounds more like an industrial interlock system. Like what (hopefully) cuts power to a machine if someone sticks their hand in. They're not very smart systems usually. They are simply on all the time. They broadcast IR light and as soon as the built in IR reciever starts picking some up that's being bounced back, it triggers.

Some posts have described some reset behavior. After a few seconds it comes back on at a slow rate, that sort of thing is possible.

I also question, what happens if I am on an ECV in a queue and end up behind one of these ECVs that won't move because it thinks the pole that holds the chain/etc. is a person. Obviously the pole will not move, but the ECV won't move until the pole does.

I wondered this as well. Another common problem with robotics and autonomous vehicles that use dumb sensors is what happens when they try to run parallel and close to a wall. The sensors have a cone pattern to what they see and percieve the walls as obstacles. I would hope that the rentals at Disney would at least let you back up after a sensor shuts you down, but at this point I would believe anything.

 

[cmwade77]

These sensors sound worse and worse all the time.

 

[mamabunny]

These sensors sound worse and worse all the time.

I agree. All kidding aside, I know that someone, somewhere thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I can't imagine that being anyone but an able-bodied lawyer or bean counter.

 

[cmwade77]

Without a picture I can't say for sure, but what has been described sounds more like an industrial interlock system. Like what (hopefully) cuts power to a machine if someone sticks their hand in. They're not very smart systems usually. They are simply on all the time. They broadcast IR light and as soon as the built in IR reciever starts picking some up that's being bounced back, it triggers.

Some posts have described some reset behavior. After a few seconds it comes back on at a slow rate, that sort of thing is possible.


I wondered this as well. Another common problem with robotics and autonomous vehicles that use dumb sensors is what happens when they try to run parallel and close to a wall. The sensors have a cone pattern to what they see and percieve the walls as obstacles. I would hope that the rentals at Disney would at least let you back up after a sensor shuts you down, but at this point I would believe anything.

Could completely black or white paper both of which absorb infrared light do the trick if they are infrared sensors?

 

[cmwade77]

In case anyone is wondering, I got the following response from Disney World about the email I sent:

Thank you for your e-mail to the Walt Disney World® Resort. We appreciate you taking the time to share your feedback with us.

We are sorry for the disappointments you mentioned in your e-mail regarding our ECV's. It is our goal to create magical memories and exceed the expectations of our Guests during each and every interaction that you have with us, the safety of our Guests is of utmost importance. Please be assured that we have shared your comments with our leadership team, along with the appropriate management, as feedback such as yours is taken very seriously.

Once again, thank you for contacting us. We sincerely hope that we will have an opportunity to entertain you soon.

Sincerely,

Chamberlin
eCommerce Sales and Service Team

So if there are any injuries or accidents caused by these sensors, they really can't say they weren't aware of the issues.

 

[Euby]

In case anyone is wondering, I got the following response from Disney World about the email I sent:


So if there are any injuries or accidents caused by these sensors, they really can't say they weren't aware of the issues.

Anyone else think that it is odd that the response was from someone on the "eCommerce Sales and Service Team"?

 

[cmwade77]

Anyone else think that it is odd that the response was from someone on the "eCommerce Sales and Service Team"?

Yes, I thought it was, but Disney can't honestly say they weren't aware of the issues now.

 

[cmwade77]

This is the response I got from Disney when emailing them about the slow ECVs at Disneyland:

Dear Christopher,

Thank you for reaching out to us and again, I appreciate your patience.

Thank you for taking the time to share your feedback regarding your recent visit to our Resort. It is disappointing to hear about your experience with the Electric Convenience Vehicle you rented and how it affected your visit. I'm sorry for the frustration caused. The Electric Convenience Vehicles that are rented at our Theme Parks and Disney Springs are owned and maintained by Scooterbug, Inc. The speed settings that are preset are done so by Scooterbug and it is for the safety of the Guest using the vehicle as well as for other Guests or Cast Members in the Park. While the safety and security of our Guests and Cast Members is our number one priority at all times, regrettably the pushing by other Guests is behavior that is out of our control. It's important that our Guests share any behavior that may feel inappropriate with one of the Leaders of the location. That will give us the opportunity to address the situation immediately. I truly understand your concern and I appreciate that you took the time to let us know about this experience. Should you wish to present a claim for medical bills due to injuries you may have sustained, please reach out directly to Scooterbug, Inc. They can be reached by calling 407-532-7400. I apologize for any inconveniences and appreciate your understanding.

Christopher, our Guests' comments are invaluable, and we truly appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts with us. We truly believe by listening to our Guests, we will know what we’re doing right and—most importantly—what we should continue to improve upon.

We hope to have future opportunities to entertain you at our Resort. Please know that you will receive a survey invitation in the next 24 hours regarding the service you received today and I would value knowing your feedback.

Kindest regards,



Patrick Sandberg
Guest Experience Services
Walt Disney World Resort
407-934-6182

I strongly recommend reaching out to both Patrick Sandberg and Scooterbug directly about these sensor issues as well. Let's inundate them with the problems with these items, hopefully if enough people speak up we can put a stop to this nonsense.

 

[3DisneyBuggs]

Any recents ecv sensor uodates?

 

[karensi]

Any recents ecv sensor uodates?

I was in MK on April 23 and April 28, rented an ECV both times and I had no problem with the scooter stopping, not once. Actually I rented 4 different scooters at MK because both days we went back at night also.
I will say the scooters were much slower than in the past but they never stopped as has been described in this thread. I even had my 11 year old grandson purposely walk in front of it just to see what would happen and it was fine, never once did it stop on its own and this was the case with all 4 scooters that I rented in MK.
In all 4 parks the scooters are much slower than in the past but that is the only problem that I encountered.
I was so worried about the MK scooters when I read this thread before our trip but I was very much relieved even though its a PIA that they go so slow.
Hope this information is helpful to others that may be concerned about the reported sudden stopping.

 

[cmwade77]

Sounds like they made the same stupid change as they did at Disneyland, guess off-site is the only way to go anymore.

 

[mamabunny]

I was in MK on April 23 and April 28, rented an ECV both times and I had no problem with the scooter stopping, not once. Actually I rented 4 different scooters at MK because both days we went back at night also.
I will say the scooters were much slower than in the past but they never stopped as has been described in this thread. I even had my 11 year old grandson purposely walk in front of it just to see what would happen and it was fine, never once did it stop on its own and this was the case with all 4 scooters that I rented in MK.
In all 4 parks the scooters are much slower than in the past but that is the only problem that I encountered.
I was so worried about the MK scooters when I read this thread before our trip but I was very much relieved even though its a PIA that they go so slow.
Hope this information is helpful to others that may be concerned about the reported sudden stopping.

This is a bit worrisome, only from the aspect that if they still have the sensors active, then your grandson was in danger. (NOT saying that you would have hit him on purpose - only that the sensor that was supposed to protect him didn't work)

If they have disabled the sensors, and simply set governors to slow them to a crawl, that's different.

Did they inform you at rental that the scooters had been slowed or sensors installed?

 

[kaytieeldr]

I strongly recommend reaching out to both Patrick Sandberg and Scooterbug directly about these sensor issues as well. Let's inundate them with the problems with these items, hopefully if enough people speak up we can put a stop to this nonsense

You might possibly want to write again regarding
"While the safety and security of our Guests and Cast Members is our number one priority at all times, regrettably the pushing by other Guests is behavior that is out of our control. It's important that our Guests share any behavior that may feel inappropriate with one of the Leaders of the location." and point out that your primary ossue is not guests trying to help you, but that the sensor operating the ECV made it appear to outsiders that it needed help.

 

[karensi]

This is a bit worrisome, only from the aspect that if they still have the sensors active, then your grandson was in danger. (NOT saying that you would have hit him on purpose - only that the sensor that was supposed to protect him didn't work)

If they have disabled the sensors, and simply set governors to slow them to a crawl, that's different.

Did they inform you at rental that the scooters had been slowed or sensors installed?

mamabunny, no worries, my 11 year old grandson is a heck of a lot faster than my very slow scooter, no way he would get run over by me! Actually, I had been using the scooter for hours and was surprised that it never, once, stopped short. So having him walk in front of it, at a good distance may I add, was just a final test. I already knew that the scooter was not stopping short when someone/something was in front of me.

No, they didn't inform me about the sensors or that the scooters had been slowed but in all fairness, that's probably because when they asked me if I had driven one of their scooters before, I replied, "yes, but not with the dreaded sensor."
Afterwards, I was sort of surprised that the cast member hadn't said that the sensor had been disabled. I'm assuming it had been disabled because as I have stated, all 4 of the scooters that I rented in MK never, once stopped short.

 

[cmwade77]

You might possibly want to write again regarding
"While the safety and security of our Guests and Cast Members is our number one priority at all times, regrettably the pushing by other Guests is behavior that is out of our control. It's important that our Guests share any behavior that may feel inappropriate with one of the Leaders of the location." and point out that your primary ossue is not guests trying to help you, but that the sensor operating the ECV made it appear to outsiders that it needed help.

Oh, believe me I have and it looks like the sensors are now gone, possibly as a result, possibly because of everyone on here or other guests complaining.

Now, if we can just get the speed fixed now to be an actual walking speed, not a crawling speed, there is a difference and the slow speed makes it impossible to get up some of the steeper hills and even some of the Wheelchair ramps. I think the only way that will get fixed is if people who get "stuck" somewhere call the number on the key and let them know you can't get out of where you are at. They will have to come out to rescue you and if it happens enough times, they will have to turn the speed up some.