"Sleep-Around Points" - The Thread

emchen

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Jul 4, 2019
I think using skier_pete's charts to make those decisions is not wise unless you don't mind staying at your home resort or whatever is available when you book. Skier_pete's charts are excellent, but they are a snapshot in time - and over the fifteen plus years I've owned, those patterns have changed drastically. I don't know what they will look like five or ten years from now - nor does anyone else. DVC is for the long term - buying a resort now because its cheap and you never intend to stay there and one bedrooms are always available at seven months when you travel won't work if five years from now one bedroom points are lowered to increase demand for those units and Disney puts an event smack dab in your favorite season.
I meant to write...I use skier_pete’s charts to help guide my choices... one of multiple factors to make my DVC point buying decisions with regards to my sleep-around points (SAP). Another is the “Most Economical Resort Ranking” compiled by a large resaler. Finally, re-selling my current SAP in 10-15 yrs time is likely when my youngest is off to college. Based on historical trends, I would be able to either fund the purchase of “new” exclusive-use points to fit our “new” booking patterns or buy the “new” “most-economical SAP”.

While true, we don’t know with certainty exactly what things will look like five or ten years from now, we all can only make our best predictions based on the data we have now. There is one thing I can predict with high confidence (to paraphrase an astute observation): prices for DVC direct sale points today will be the cheapest I will see going into the future. Today’s average prices will be lower than those in 10-15 years time. Best way to mitigate risk in the face of uncertainty, in my opinion, is flexibility. Luckily, DVC economics affords us that flexibility.
 

crisi

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Joined
Feb 25, 2002
But why would anyone in their right mind buy direct? Unless the points for your resort are not available via the resale market - or don't come with any discount vs. direct prices - direct is a fool's purchase - or one made by someone who is price insensitive, in which case, buy your dream resort. (or book cash suites, they are way nicer).
 

emchen

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Jul 4, 2019
I am a little confused, was someone advocating for a direct purchase? Also, not very kind to call all those purchasing direct, new members or veteran, “Fools”.
 
  • zavandor

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    Joined
    Jul 22, 2011
    The rule number one for buying sleep around points is being happy to stay at your home resort. One may think they're always going during slow times, but it won't always be true. I travel mostly during slow times and yet I went twice during marathon week end. I bought sleep around points but was happy with staying at my home resort when I wasn't able to switch.

    The rule number two is being flexible with travel dates. What now is slow season may not be next year. End of January has been a very busy period this year, SWGE effect or a change of trend? However,what we can be sure of is that there will always be a slow season. Disney may reallocate the point charts to balance current demand, but it's a moving target: new events, old events cancelled, new promotions, even climate change will always contribute to a demand change. If one is bind to a specific time of the year for holidays, there is a risk in buying sleep aroung points, if one can choose when he travels, then he can have good success.

    The rule number three is buying a cushion of points. A contract with the exact number of points needed for a stay in a specific unit, in a specific resort for a specific season will open the gates to addonitis. Don't count on a standard room (not even at AKV, the easiest standard to book among the not-SSR resorts), buy enough for the costly views that are often available and then buy a few extra points to account for possible reallocations or for having to travel in a costlier season. Rent the extra points if not needed or book a couple of nights if you're lucky, but do not rely too much on good deals.

    The rule number four is booking at 7 months sharp. 5 seconds make a big difference in availability. If you're not willing to play the "fastest finger" game, sleep around points are not for you. And have a plan B and a plan C ready.
     
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    Great3

    Mouseketeer
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    Jan 20, 2015
    You are right and I actually would have to change my previous statement. The cheapest and best points to sleep around with be Aulani subsidized points. There is one caveat and that is you can’t book any wdw resorts before 7 months. If you are okay with that then aulani subsidized points would be my first choice.
    Agreed with the caveat. However, I would say Aulani is probably just as good as SSR itself to getting something at SSR at the 7 months mark :). Sure you can't book anything WDW wise before 7 months out, but does it really matter if you can usually at least get SSR anyways? I am sure for some, a bird in the hand is much better, so for those, SSR for SAP is necessary. Luckily for me, since Hawaii is more important to me than WDW, subsidized AUL works out as best for SAP. Best overall MF's dues, and usually on the lower end for buy-in upfront cost for the most part.

    Great3
     

    emchen

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    Agreed with the caveat. However, I would say Aulani is probably just as good as SSR itself to getting something at SSR at the 7 months mark :). Sure you can't book anything WDW wise before 7 months out, but does it really matter if you can usually at least get SSR anyways? I am sure for some, a bird in the hand is much better, so for those, SSR for SAP is necessary. Luckily for me, since Hawaii is more important to me than WDW, subsidized AUL works out as best for SAP. Best overall MF's dues, and usually on the lower end for buy-in upfront cost for the most part.

    Great3
    If only I could find some!... mmm... subsidized points! 🤑
     

    emchen

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    How do you calculate the value of your SAP when sleeping-around? One quick and easy way is to use DVC Resort Economical Rankings: Take the June rankings where SSR is the most economical and BCR is the least. Take total cost per point (TCPP) of BCR and subtract TCPP of SSR. Then divide by TCPP of BCR. That's about a 30% difference in TCPP. If you sleep at BCR with resale-bought SSR points, then you are saving at least 30% over an owner using resale-bought BCR points.

    You ever wonder what that 11-m window is worth? I suggest it is worth about 30% of your contract's TCPP, but only at those times when it is needed to book. For example in the case of BCR, during Food and Wine season if you are a studios-only family.

    That is comparing apples to apples, but depending on the actual TCPP of the owner's points, the difference can vary dramatically....I think it's a nice estimation tho. What do other owners think?
     

    crisi

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    Joined
    Feb 25, 2002
    Agreed with the caveat. However, I would say Aulani is probably just as good as SSR itself to getting something at SSR at the 7 months mark :). Sure you can't book anything WDW wise before 7 months out, but does it really matter if you can usually at least get SSR anyways? I am sure for some, a bird in the hand is much better, so for those, SSR for SAP is necessary. Luckily for me, since Hawaii is more important to me than WDW, subsidized AUL works out as best for SAP. Best overall MF's dues, and usually on the lower end for buy-in upfront cost for the most part.

    Great3
    There have been a few times when nothing at WDW is open at seven months - not even SSR - and offsite resort holders have had to stalk, waitlist, and hope. This has been most common during the last quarter - and its rare, but it can happen. Using offsite resort points to get to WDW, and being happy at SSR will work MOST of the time, if you need it to work ALL of the time, a person considering purchasing (not you, you use your Aulani points for Aulani much of the time) might want to rethink this.

    And this may get more true if Disney does decide to open more offsite resorts - the long researched ski resort, or one in the Caribbean.
     

    Great3

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    Jan 20, 2015
    There have been a few times when nothing at WDW is open at seven months - not even SSR - and offsite resort holders have had to stalk, waitlist, and hope. This has been most common during the last quarter - and its rare, but it can happen. Using offsite resort points to get to WDW, and being happy at SSR will work MOST of the time, if you need it to work ALL of the time, a person considering purchasing (not you, you use your Aulani points for Aulani much of the time) might want to rethink this.

    And this may get more true if Disney does decide to open more offsite resorts - the long researched ski resort, or one in the Caribbean.
    Agreed Crisi. If WDW is your primary goal, than I would get SSR, just to guarantee something at WDW at least. It is not like there is a big difference between subsidized Aulani dues compare to SSR dues, only about 40 cents a point currently. Because this thread was about SAP, for me, it just made sense to keep buying more Aulani instead of SSR. For others, they need to evaluate what works best for them, and I will agree, that for most folks, SSR will usually be better choice than even subsidized Aulani.

    Great3
     

    emchen

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    Jul 4, 2019
    Agreed Crisi. If WDW is your primary goal, than I would get SSR, just to guarantee something at WDW at least. It is not like there is a big difference between subsidized Aulani dues compare to SSR dues, only about 40 cents a point currently. Because this thread was about SAP, for me, it just made sense to keep buying more Aulani instead of SSR. For others, they need to evaluate what works best for them, and I will agree, that for most folks, SSR will usually be better choice than even subsidized Aulani.

    Great3
    I like your point of what works best. I live in Socal, so what works best for me and my fam is VGC for exclusive-use. Bought some SSR for SAP purposes, but Aulani would have worked for me too. Difference in MF was the only thing that tipped in favor of SSR. Even the 11-m premium seemingly is irrelevant cuz I would more likely visit Aulani outside of its peak season in June.
     

    mrsap

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    Joined
    Apr 30, 2012
    We just passed ROFR on our first set of official ‘Sleep Around Points!’ We were torn at first... my kids loved Poly and wanted to stay there more often. While I was totally on board with that, my mentality was if I’m paying for Poly, I’m using those points to ONLY stay at Poly. The more DH and I spoke about our extended summer trip plans, we knew we wanted to do split stays between Epcot and MK resorts each summer. To us, the one that made most sense was SSR. I have stayed in a 2 br. there before and would stay again; however, we will most likely be using these new points just to ‘sleep around’ every summer. And honestly... I look forward to it 😂
     
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    igrsod

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    May 11, 2010
    There have been a few times when nothing at WDW is open at seven months - not even SSR - and offsite resort holders have had to stalk, waitlist, and hope. This has been most common during the last quarter - and its rare, but it can happen. Using offsite resort points to get to WDW, and being happy at SSR will work MOST of the time, if you need it to work ALL of the time, a person considering purchasing (not you, you use your Aulani points for Aulani much of the time) might want to rethink this.

    And this may get more true if Disney does decide to open more offsite resorts - the long researched ski resort, or one in the Caribbean.
    If they open one in the Caribbean... I'm THERE with a Margarita in hand.
     

    emchen

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    Jul 4, 2019
    We just passed ROFR on our first set of official ‘Sleep Around Points!’ We were torn at first... my kids loved Poly and wanted to stay there more often. While I was totally on board with that, my mentality was if I’m paying for Poly, I’m using those points to ONLY stay at Poly. The more DH and I spoke about our extended summer trip plans, we knew we wanted to do split stays between Epcot and MK resorts each summer. To us, the one that made most sense was SSR. I have stayed in a 2 br. there before and would stay again; however, we will most likely be using these new points just to ‘sleep around’ every summer. And honestly... I look forward to it 😂
    Throw in the ongoing SSR refresh, and your new SAPs will gain even more value for you! Congrats!
     

    emchen

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    Jul 4, 2019
    I live the dream - SSR sleep around person , but the difference is I take 1 beds. I have zero issues staying where I want most of the year and having decent choice at peak, peak times. But that’s one beds. I normally only go once a year for about 11 nights- last year I was in a 2 bed standard view at Boardwalk, then a 1 bed standard at Kidani (could have got a value, but wanted the sleeper sofa), that was July and August. At Christmas and NY doing an 11 night split stay (by choice) at BCV and BLT. Can always seem to book places like Boardwalk pool/ garden at peak, peak times, and also usually see BCV, OKW, VWL at those times. Off peak in summer the only rooms I struggle with are BLT standard, BWV Boardwalk and AKV concierge/ value (but value was there for both parts of my split last summer). 1 beds are the key to sleeping around as you know.
    Ironically when the SSR refurb is done and it has the 5 sleep surfaces in the 1 bed (apparently) with its low points it may be my go to resort. The refurb looks top notch at SSR.
    Loved your experience and brought it over to this thread to share!

    Sorry, what is SAP?

    EDITED TO ADD: Oh, duh. "Sleep Around Points." Gotcha.
    I think the acronym, SAP, was coined in this thread.
     

    montreid

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    Feb 24, 2013
    So still kicking around the thought of SAP with Subsidized AUL points since we're SoCal too and direct stay with VGC -- along with the same line with you @emchen but not as much and furious buildup you've done this summer --- 600pts! though with 1BR, that can blow through fast in premium weeks I suppose.

    Was it hard to find subsidized AUL? We haven't seen it pop up at all. Having just got back from Maui this year, we have time for those :)
     

    emchen

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    Jul 4, 2019
    So still kicking around the thought of SAP with Subsidized AUL points since we're SoCal too and direct stay with VGC -- along with the same line with you @emchen but not as much and furious buildup you've done this summer --- 600pts! though with 1BR, that can blow through fast in premium weeks I suppose.

    Was it hard to find subsidized AUL? We haven't seen it pop up at all. Having just got back from Maui this year, we have time for those :)
    Hey @montreid ... heh, I know I got that add-on-itis bad! Taking a breath now.

    Lemme tell you 'bout the Aulani subsidized contract... 123/217/217 April UY...I found it on "The Resale Market" about a week ago and jumped right on it. I was lucky because it wasn't in their email blast, having somehow fallen through the cracks I guess. I happened to be browsing The Market's full listing and saw it stand out like a sore thumb because it was $110 pp among the Aulani contracts at mid-90s to low-100s. Clicked on the details and it specified "this is a subsidized contract and will save over $17000" in MF over the life of the contract. Put a bid in right away ($95) and asked Jodi, my broker, to let me know right away if there are other bids. I gave her contingency to go up to $105 if seller counters and full price if another bidder was in play. That day, she let me know another bidder was in play and that The Market was going to submit the "best offer" to the seller. "Best Offer" was me at $105, Jodi said the seller wouldn't come down from $110. I re-iterated I can do full price. Now it is awaiting ROFR, which will be waived no doubt since AUL is never ROFRd.

    I asked Jodi how often these contracts come up ... she said every few months or so. Interestingly, I did a search in the ROFR thread and it showed a 220 pp subsidized AUL contract found by @marygrcevic :
    Where did you find this subsidized contract? I found mine on the Resale Market.
    Keep looking and good luck...and don't hesitate to pay list price. BTW, since entering into contract, I did a Hawaii deed search and saw that the original owner of my contract paid $98 pp in 2011.
     

    montreid

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    Feb 24, 2013
    Hey @montreid ... heh, I know I got that add-on-itis bad! Taking a breath now.

    Lemme tell you 'bout the Aulani subsidized contract... 123/217/217 April UY...I found it on "The Resale Market" about a week ago and jumped right on it. I was lucky because it wasn't in their email blast, having somehow fallen through the cracks I guess. I happened to be
    Found the listing. Doesn't say it until you see it under the comments! Nice grab. At $115, say you can get at $90. that $25 differential = ~12 year break even on 42yr contract?
     

    emchen

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    Jul 4, 2019
    Found the listing. Doesn't say it until you see it under the comments! Nice grab. At $115, say you can get at $90. that $25 differential = ~12 year break even on 42yr contract?
    Right, so you're talking about the number of years to break-even when compared with a non-subsidized AUL contract. This is why I love DIS boards because members help you really think things through.

    I actually did quick calculations prior to making my offers. FYI, the actual sale price was $110 pp on 217 points. I made a conservative assumption of $95 pp (~90% certainty) for a similar non-subsidized AUL contract. The $15 pp differential = 7.5 yrs to break even.

    However, that wasn't the most important thing in my mind, since break even is a variable that can be changed and manipulated by how I used the contract. For example, I could cut that $15 pp differential by up to 2/3 with just renting out one year's worth of points.

    What is more important for me are the constants, like length of contract, location, etc. But THE MOST important is the maintenance fee subsidy. This year (2019), ($7.86-$5.91{sub MF})/$7.86 (non-sub MF) = 25% difference. As I understand it, the yearly MF percent-increase apply equally to both fees, so over time, the 25% difference will actually slowly increase! How powerful is that?? No variable can compare, and no other constant in any DVC contract is as powerful in my opinion.
     
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    Wakey

    DIS Veteran
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    Dec 22, 2015
    Loved your experience and brought it over to this thread to share!
    No problem, I have a particular interest in sleep around points. When I was buying initially, I spent 6 months researching DVC and a lot on this point as I bought wanting to sleep around. Skier Pete's charts were invaluable in allowing me make an informed choice- I also used to have a spreadsheet, which I still have somewhere, which someone I think on Facebook put up which did something similar, I think I posted it on here quite a few years ago.

    For me, I was ONLY interested in DVC in the short term (next 10 years) at least as a sleep around option. I get bored going back to the same place, which is why I always do split stays also- for variety- a week in one place is enough for me.

    Zavandor I am sure will not mind me re quoting his sage advice which I have always advocated myself - "The rule number one for buying sleep around points is being happy to stay at your home resort. One may think they're always going during slow times, but it won't always be true. I travel mostly during slow times and yet I went twice during marathon week end. I bought sleep around points but was happy with staying at my home resort when I wasn't able to switch." We are exactly this. I would however say with 1 beds, you do normally have multiple choices even at peak, peak , but if I had to stay at SSR (particularly post refurb) I will be extremely happy.

    I also thought long term. I will soon have enough points hopefully for a month a year at SSR. I was thinking that when I get bored of sleeping around as I will have seen the resorts, I may be happy to settle down in SSR with sojourns out to other resorts as and when availability arises. This will probably be around when I retire, in hopefully about 10 years. I live in the UK and by then, it will be very nice for myself and Mrs Wakey to start staying in studios (kids grown) and escape winter in say Feb, and come over for a month, perhaps snagging the odd night at different resorts, a few days at Vero etc. So this is all part of my masterplan also.

    This strategy can save significant sums of money over a 30+ year contract. If I was buying in fresh today, I would undoubtedly pursue the exact same strategy which has always worked for me- this shows how happy I am with it. There was little info on it really when I bought in and I had to do my research from scratch with guidance from boards like this. Now, there is more info, and people have a head start, but this comes with heavy caveats and my message is always do your own research first. Remember, an educated DVC owner is a happy owner. I knew exactly what I was going into, and it has worked out exactly as planned. If you buy to sleep around and in fact decide really you wanted a studio at Copper Creek, you will not be happy.

    I am always happy to answer questions to the best of my ability on this subject.
     

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