Taking your children for holidays during school is illegal in the UK

[Colleen27]

Is that a good idea though (eliminating all but the "core" classes)? Don't PE, art, music, and recess all benefit the kids in different ways? If not, why is there such an outcry when these programs get cut back (if not eliminated)?

A question for anyone... is there ANY limit that you'd be ok with? In other words, if you think it should be ok (fully excused) for a student to miss a week of school, what about two weeks? Three? A month?

Those things are a benefit as enrichment, but not as education. PE and recess are basically designed to offset the mental and physical impact of expecting growing children to sit still for long stretches of time - without them, it would be very hard to maintain control of a classroom full of kids who have no physical outlet for their natural energy. Art and music add value too, but as part of an overall, well-rounded package - again, providing a creative outlet that balances the analytical/academic demands of the rest of the school program. I believe they're absolutely essential as part of the big picture, but I also believe there's a reason we don't stress over a child missing a day of PE or have them studying for art class.

As far as limits go, I personally feel that academics should be evaluated based on performance rather than attendance. But I can understand the need for limits, especially in a public school setting where there's a need for rules to apply evenly to everyone regardless of the uneven conditions that might exist. Our public schools will only approve a single vacation request per academic year. I'm not sure if there are limits on the duration of that request; it probably isn't something that comes up because month long vacations just aren't on the radar for folks in our tax bracket. Going by the kids that we've known over the years, a week in Disney, maybe a cruise or a trip to the beach, that's about as big as vacations get for families around here.

 

[Colleen27]

I am not thinking the schools are the problem here.

It sounds like many of you need to work to change the rules of your employers. The seniority thing where only a few get all the choice weeks is crazy.

How come it is ok here and blindly followed for employers to have rules about taking vacations during work time, but schools are evil for having rules about taking vacations during school time?

Because most people have at least some say in how the schools are managed - through voting, speaking up at school board meetings, working with other parents to get changes made. In post-union America employment is pretty much "take it or leave it", and odds are that if you leave it you're just going to end up with the same situation at your next job unless you're able to change careers entirely.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Because most people have at least some say in how the schools are managed - through voting, speaking up at school board meetings, working with other parents to get changes made. In post-union America employment is pretty much "take it or leave it", and odds are that if you leave it you're just going to end up with the same situation at your next job unless you're able to change careers entirely.

Oddly enough, the one person I know for a fact with a bad vacation position is in fact a union member, and he's NOT in a seasonal position - he's a teamster working for a major freight carrier.

The senior guy is allowed to pick ALL his vacation before the next guy in line can pick ANY days. Then it moves down the line one person at a time. And ironically, the generous vacation allotment they receive actually compounds the problem for the guys at the bottom. And while this isn't the case in all union jobs, one thing that is the norm is that being the low guy at a union job does NOT equal fair treatment.

At every job I've had, the senior person picks first. But, you only get to choose one vacation (duration of your choice), and then it moves down the line until everyone has made one choice. Then, you start over at the top again. These have all been non-union jobs & I think it's a reasonably fair system

 

[Boopuff]

The only time I took my kids out was once in high school the two days prior to thanksgiving. That was several years ago. Now our district has become an impersonal teach to the test district. We do still offer art music PE and thank god we do. Our district is one known for excellent treatment for inclusion kids. I'd have to guess that at least 1/4 of the class is on an I E P (individual education plan aka special Ed) many UEP include speech, gifted, behavior. Do parents take kids out? Sure but no teacher I know puts together packets. The kids sorta flounder or the parents hire tutors to play catch up.

 

[tmh43]

I think parents should be able to pull their kids period. If the kid fails because of it, then it's the parent's fault and there are some other issues in the home that should be dealt with. IME, no parent is going to take their kid out of school if it's going to have an effect on their child's education.

My son is already at a grade 1 level. He's not even 3 yet. (All through play btw, so yes, play time like recess *is* important for leaning just as much as sitting at a desk.) Is a school going to cater his "education" to him? No. We'll be lucky if we get to skip him a grade, and even then, there are social issues we need to take into consideration, so we may never skip him. If he can take a week, or even a month, off school and still get straight As, you bet I'm taking him out.

Is this going to be everyone's situation? Of course not. But everyone has a different situation, and blanket rules like this treat parents like they can't be trusted to raise a human.

And I do believe vacations are learning experiences. Our vacation to Disney probably won't be the most educational experience, but I'm sure I'll find teaching moments just like everyday at home. And besides, you only live once so FUN is just as important as learning. Our trip to Mexico however- seeing new animals, ancient ruins, and experiencing a different culture- that's an education that can't be taught. When another kid at the resort taught him Spanish? That was priceless.

 

[Colleen27]

Oddly enough, the one person I know for a fact with a bad vacation position is in fact a union member, and he's NOT in a seasonal position - he's a teamster working for a major freight carrier.

The senior guy is allowed to pick ALL his vacation before the next guy in line can pick ANY days. Then it moves down the line one person at a time. And ironically, the generous vacation allotment they receive actually compounds the problem for the guys at the bottom. And while this isn't the case in all union jobs, one thing that is the norm is that being the low guy at a union job does NOT equal fair treatment.

At every job I've had, the senior person picks first. But, you only get to choose one vacation (duration of your choice), and then it moves down the line until everyone has made one choice. Then, you start over at the top again. These have all been non-union jobs & I think it's a reasonably fair system

Yeah, the one union job I had was like that too, with the senior people getting to chose ALL their vacation time before junior employees got any shot (and the senior person in my role had been there 25+ years and got 6+ weeks/year). I didn't mean to imply that union employer rules were better than non-union employers. What I was saying was that in a post-union era employees don't have much ability to petition for a change in workplace policies.

 

[averysmom]

I've taught middle school for 18 years, and no matter what you say, or what kind of work kids are "catching up" on, they are missing out if they miss school. I don't just hand out worksheets all day, and even with the modern miracle of screen casting and posting lessons, kids are losing out when they miss class time. Some kids more than others. Yes, I've had kids miss for a week or two who have taken a month or more to get back into the groove, to get "caught up". I get that it's cheaper; I too have to travel during school breaks, but no one school kid themselves that they aren't missing anything or that they can just catch up. It should be a major decision, and should be a last resort.

 

[EMom]

I've taught middle school for 18 years, and no matter what you say, or what kind of work kids are "catching up" on, they are missing out if they miss school. I don't just hand out worksheets all day, and even with the modern miracle of screen casting and posting lessons, kids are losing out when they miss class time. Some kids more than others. Yes, I've had kids miss for a week or two who have taken a month or more to get back into the groove, to get "caught up". I get that it's cheaper; I too have to travel during school breaks, but no one school kid themselves that they aren't missing anything or that they can just catch up. It should be a major decision, and should be a last resort.

It just depends on the child's ability, age, health as well as whether the parents can teach the material instead of the teacher. I took DD out almost yearly until 7th grade and she did fine. I used to teach and DH is an engineer. Between the two of us, we could pretty much cover anything for elementary school. DD was bright and healthy and didn't miss class otherwise. Had she struggled at all in school or been sickly, we wouldn't have taken her out. She never missed a beat upon her return.

 

[DisneyPrince1982]

I'm also of the opinion that parents should be able to pull their kids out whenever they need to and I don't think a reason needs to be given. Dad/Mom: "Hi I need to pull my Bobby out for the week of September 10th." School: "Oh sorry to hear that. Why?" Dad/Mom: "Personal. Thanks." And of course the student should either get the work done ahead of the missed days or perhaps complete the work during free time at the hotel during the trip and then turn in immediately upon return (with teacher's permission of course).

But does anyone think there should be some discretion based on what sort of the grades the child is already getting? Let's say you have two sixth graders, John and Cindy. John is a straight A student who excels in everything and gets all projects completed on time. But Cindy is struggling just to maintain C's in her classes and doesn't always complete the required homework or reading assignment. Both John and Cindy's parents want to take their child out for a week. As unfair as it might seem, don't you think the school should grant John the days without even blinking but perhaps suggesting that Cindy would have difficulty overcoming a week off?

 

[sam_gordon]

As unfair as it might seem, don't you think the school should grant John the days without even blinking but perhaps suggesting that Cindy would have difficulty overcoming a week off?

While I can appreciate the idea, I think this is an area where it needs to be "fair". Again, if you want to take your kids out, go ahead, just don't complain about any consequences from your actions.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I'm also of the opinion that parents should be able to pull their kids out whenever they need to and I don't think a reason needs to be given. Dad/Mom: "Hi I need to pull my Bobby out for the week of September 10th." School: "Oh sorry to hear that. Why?" Dad/Mom: "Personal. Thanks." And of course the student should either get the work done ahead of the missed days or perhaps complete the work during free time at the hotel during the trip and then turn in immediately upon return (with teacher's permission of course).

But does anyone think there should be some discretion based on what sort of the grades the child is already getting? Let's say you have two sixth graders, John and Cindy. John is a straight A student who excels in everything and gets all projects completed on time. But Cindy is struggling just to maintain C's in her classes and doesn't always complete the required homework or reading assignment. Both John and Cindy's parents want to take their child out for a week. As unfair as it might seem, don't you think the school should grant John the days without even blinking but perhaps suggesting that Cindy would have difficulty overcoming a week off?

Parent's discretion...PERIOD.

 

[sersee05]

In my state, we are allowed a certain number of unexcused absences before things start getting reviewed. An excused absence is an illness with a doctor's note, funeral, even a college visit(though they are limited to 3 a year I think). My son was in the hospital for a week during the school year and it was all excused because obviously it was something that was medically necessary. Any other absence is unexcused . It could be that your sick or that you went on vacation. As long as you don't go over the days , your ok. They don't like people taking their kid out during the school year for vacation, but it's the parents choice . If our schools go over their "allowed"absences, they miss out on some of their funding . So they have really cracked down on it. During the end of the school year when your in for a half a day doing nothing but watching finding nemo, the school sent out letters basically begging for parents to make sure their child attends school. They were approaching there limit.

I have taken my kids out. I usually will only do it for around 3 days because I try to piggyback it with holidays. I always made sure they weren't doing much. At a younger age, it didn't matter. But as they got older, my kids didn't want to miss too much. So we started going in the summer.

My daughter goes to college and we wanted to plan a Universal trip in the cooler weather. Her schedule is different so I am still debating on what to do.

I do believe it should be left up to the parents though

 

[DisneyPrince1982]

Parent's discretion...PERIOD.

I agree as I said in my prior post so not sure you have to say PERIOD to me. But that doesn't appear to be what some school districts are doing, especially in the UK. So my point is that in the school districts that don't simply allow parents discretion, why not look at the grades of the students in question and make a judgment call as to whether that student is able to miss a week off school.

 

[tasha99]

I think the Kahn Academy can help a lot with this. When my kids need clarification, they always seem to be able to pull something up that helps.

 

[tvguy]

Because we insist on sending everyone to college these days even though it's really not appropriate for many of them.

True. My neighbor is a retired High School Principal. He says he was shocked at the salaries some of his "drop outs" were earning in the trades.

 

[kamik86]

But does anyone think there should be some discretion based on what sort of the grades the child is already getting? Let's say you have two sixth graders, John and Cindy. John is a straight A student who excels in everything and gets all projects completed on time. But Cindy is struggling just to maintain C's in her classes and doesn't always complete the required homework or reading assignment. Both John and Cindy's parents want to take their child out for a week. As unfair as it might seem, don't you think the school should grant John the days without even blinking but perhaps suggesting that Cindy would have difficulty overcoming a week off?

I think this is one of those instances where "natural consequences" make sense. The natural consequences of missing school shouldn't be that because you missed X days you fail no matter what your other grades are. However it may be that you miss one or two assignments that can't be made up (some assignments are really hard do that with... like science labs) lose some participation points and maybe get a lower grade on the test the week you got back as you hadn't fully caught up yet.

A straight A kid is probably still going to get an A after all of this... maybe a B plus for that one quarter... but its not like 7th grade really has a GPA to worry about.

The kid struggling to get Cs may be in more trouble with these natural consequences. In neither case should the school say they CANT leave. Just that in one case the consequences of maybe slipping half a grade are significant and in the other it isn't.

 

[DizBelle]

So the only way families can influence kids and help them be successful is by taking family vacations?

We took vacations every summer when I was growing up. My grandparents lived in Florida and we went to stay with them for a week. I have few memories of those vacations and couldn't tell you one thing I "learned" while gone.

I can remember only 2 vacations before I graduated high school. The first was when I was in 7th grade. We went to Disney World for 4 days or so. I believe this one was summer so no school was missed. It was My dad, my sister, and me. Mom didn't go because she had to go to dialysys 3 days a week so she stayed home. The second was Thanksgiving weekend of my senior year. Left Wednesday after school and came back Sunday. No school missed for that one. On this trip it was my dad, my mom, and me. No sister this time. We managed to arrange dialysis for mom on this trip.

So, by my count, there were a total of ZERO vacations with the whole family for my entire childhood. Mom died the July after my high school graduation so that would be ZERO family vacation ever. Don't pity me. I grew up just fine and am doing very well, thank you very much.

ETA: the point is that you don't need family vacations (away for a week or so). Family time is the time you choose to take to spend time as a family. It doesn't have to be during school or for extended periods to be of value.

 

[DizBelle]

Do you all remember earlier in the year when a family attended the Boston Marathon requiring taking the kids out from school? The principal regarded it as unexcused absences. The dad wrote a letter to the school principal which is worth reading again.

Dear Madam Principal,

While I appreciate your concern for our children’s education, I can promise you they learned as much in the five days we were in Boston as they would in an entire year in school.

Our children had a once-in-a-lifetime experience, one that can’t be duplicated in a classroom or read in a book.

In the 3 days of school they missed (which consisted of standardized testing that they could take any time) they learned about dedication, commitment, love, perseverance, overcoming adversity, civic pride, patriotism, American history culinary arts and physical education.

They watched their father overcome, injury, bad weather, the death of a loved one and many other obstacles to achieve an important personal goal.

They also experienced first-hand the love and support of thousands of others cheering on people with a common goal.

At the marathon, they watched blind runners, runners with prosthetic limbs and debilitating diseases and people running to raise money for great causes run in the most prestigious and historic marathon in the world.

They also paid tribute to the victims of a senseless act of terrorism and learned that no matter what evil may occur, terrorists can not deter the American spirit.

These are things they won’t ever truly learn in the classroom.

In addition our children walked the Freedom Trail, visited the site of the Boston Tea Party, the Boston Massacre and the graves of several signers of the Declaration of Independence.

These are things they WILL learn in school a year or more from now. So in actuality our children are ahead of the game.

They also visited an aquarium, sampled great cuisine and spent many hours of physical activity walking and swimming.

We appreciate the efforts of the wonderful teachers and staff and cherish the education they are receiving at Rydal Elementary School. We truly love our school.

But I wouldn’t hesitate to pull them out of school again for an experience like the one they had this past week.

Thank you for your time.

All of that stuff is wonderful to learn. However, it does not take the place of lesson B that was taught while your child was out and which is required to understand lesson C which is what will be taught when your child returns. Continuity in class is important.

 

[pryncess527]

IME, no parent is going to take their kid out of school if it's going to have an effect on their child's education.

I wish my experience led me to be as optimistic as you. I have encountered MANY parents who would make whatever choice they please regardlless of the effect it had on their child's education. Or who would simply convince themselves there was no impact, even if there is.

I mean, look at the UK post about smoking in cars -- some parents have to be legally told not to smoke in a car with their young children with the windows up. I'd like to live in a world where no parent would put their child in an unhealthy situation like that, but that's not the reality I see.

It is unfortunate that laws often target the lowest common denominator in society, and that negatively impacts others -- but when the goal is to help ensure children grow up with a decent chance in life, it's hard for me to fault those laws even when I'm not a huge fan.

 

[DopeyDame]

I'm also of the opinion that parents should be able to pull their kids out whenever they need to and I don't think a reason needs to be given. Dad/Mom: "Hi I need to pull my Bobby out for the week of September 10th." School: "Oh sorry to hear that. Why?" Dad/Mom: "Personal. Thanks." And of course the student should either get the work done ahead of the missed days or perhaps complete the work during free time at the hotel during the trip and then turn in immediately upon return (with teacher's permission of course).

But does anyone think there should be some discretion based on what sort of the grades the child is already getting? Let's say you have two sixth graders, John and Cindy. John is a straight A student who excels in everything and gets all projects completed on time. But Cindy is struggling just to maintain C's in her classes and doesn't always complete the required homework or reading assignment. Both John and Cindy's parents want to take their child out for a week. As unfair as it might seem, don't you think the school should grant John the days without even blinking but perhaps suggesting that Cindy would have difficulty overcoming a week off?

Nope - I don't think the school should be "granting" days to either kid. The school can absolutely implement their own consequences. If both Johnny and Cindy are absent on the day of a test, it's totally within the schools domain to give both kids a 0 on the test. For Johnny, that might bring his grade to a B and for Cindy that might mean she fails. But that's the end of what the schools should be able to do. If schools don't want to give makeup work for unexcused absences, I can get behind that. If schools don't want to let kids make up tests, I can get behind that. And if that means Cindy fails 6th grade math, than that's the choice her parents have made.

But no way, no how, will a school tell me I'm "not allowed" to do something with my kids.