Teachers wearing religious garb

[Westcoastwild]

I mean truly Orthodox men usually can't work specific times, pray several times a day, wear their beards long, I'm not talking the Orthodox that has been more popular recently that Jared Kushner is which is really more conservatice even though it is is modern Orthodox. When I think Orthodox Jewish I think of Hassidism and other groups. Of course that's on me but when I hear Orthodox I think of traditional Orthodox. Those are the types where a traditionally Orthodox man can't touch or talk to too long someone of the opposite sex especially if they were are not also Jewish. They wouldn't be able to be near their female students during their periods etc.

I see your point but the modern conservative Orthodox consider themselves to be Orthodox Jews and there would certainly be more of them than the traditionally orthodox in in the US. What I mean is that "Orthodox" is actually a broad umbrella term within the Jewish community. It's sort of a sliding scale- their views differ drastically on topics such as roles of women, dress, contact with the secular world. And even within those groups there are divisions- largely based on ethnic origins. When I was in Rome I was surprised to find out that there is no reform population there, really, but there are different communities of orthodox, with varying beliefs and outlooks. They all consider themselves to be Orthodox Jews but the main common denominator is that they believe they need to stick together because there is strength in numbers. They see the necessity of taking care of their own and their numbers are not large enough for each subgroup to do so separately. They have very different opinions on politics and nearly every other topic.

 

[CarolAnn856]

It would violate the 1st amemdment to prevent that. Freedom of religion.

If someone would say, "But you don't have to wear your cross to be a Christian", then you must be equally be okay with forcing an Orthodox Jewish man to shave off his facial hair, because he doesn't have to wear facial hair to be Jewish, according to some people's interpretation. Forcing either one would be coercive and wrong. Wearing my badge of faith is part of my witness to my faith in Christ, and the government cannot legally force me to remove it.

That isn't comparing apples to apples. I don't know of any Christian denomination, certainly not any mainstream denomination, that states as a rule that one must wear a cross. As a Christian myself, I can choose to wear one or not and still be following my faith. On the other hand, many other religions do have very specific rules pertaining to appearance and clothing, which are tied directly to following their faith.

If there is a Christian sect that requires its adherents to wear a cross as part of their faith practice, then you have a comparable argument. But again, I know of no such Christian group that has this rule.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Right. Agree with @CarolAnn856. Around here it's Mennonites. No one is going to argue that a church camp tshirt or baseball cap with rhinestone cross is the equivalent of a Mennonite woman's bonnet or a hijab.

I mean, if you say that because schools allow hijab, they can't force Catholic children to eat meat on Friday's during lent, then yes, you have a valid point. But you can't argue that allowing hijab means you have to allow the same Catholic kids to wear the baseball cap.

 

[loves to dive]

Wouldn't bother me, I'm not particularly religious but I collect crosses and wear one often. I also collect disney watches and wear one every day. I also wear some sort of Greek evil eye jewelry every day.

 

[wilkeliza]

I see your point but the modern conservative Orthodox consider themselves to be Orthodox Jews and there would certainly be more of them than the traditionally orthodox in in the US. What I mean is that "Orthodox" is actually a broad umbrella term within the Jewish community. It's sort of a sliding scale- their views differ drastically on topics such as roles of women, dress, contact with the secular world. And even within those groups there are divisions- largely based on ethnic origins. When I was in Rome I was surprised to find out that there is no reform population there, really, but there are different communities of orthodox, with varying beliefs and outlooks. They all consider themselves to be Orthodox Jews but the main common denominator is that they believe they need to stick together because there is strength in numbers. They see the necessity of taking care of their own and their numbers are not large enough for each subgroup to do so separately. They have very different opinions on politics and nearly every other topic.

I know the scale and how different sects follow very drastically different rules. I mean even with in my own family some are non-kosher conservatives while others are about as Jew"ish" reform as if gets (jew"ish" means yoo wouldn't be able to tell unless they told you as they only go to temple once a year and have pretty much nothing in their home that would even signify it) all the way to hard core conservative who keep kosher and shabbat and are just short of Orthodox (what some would call modern Orthodox).

 

[Westcoastwild]

I know the scale and how different sects follow very drastically different rules. I mean even with in my own family some are non-kosher conservatives while others are about as Jew"ish" reform as if gets (jew"ish" means yoo wouldn't be able to tell unless they told you as they only go to temple once a year and have pretty much nothing in their home that would even signify it) all the way to hard core conservative who keep kosher and shabbat and are just short of Orthodox (what some would call modern Orthodox).

But do your Jew-"ish" relatives refer to themselves as Orthodox?

Because I mean I'm assuming the PP with the Orthodox coworker sees them as Orthodox because they refer to themselves that way. Even if they don't adhere to the more extreme rules about interacting with women or non-Jews. I guess you could argue that they are not great at observance but they are still Orthodox because they see themselves as such.

 

[wilkeliza]

But do your Jew-"ish" relatives refer to themselves as Orthodox?

Because I mean I'm assuming the PP with the Orthodox coworker sees them as Orthodox because they refer to themselves that way. Even if they don't adhere to the more extreme rules about interacting with women or non-Jews. I guess you could argue that they are not great at observance but they are still Orthodox because they see themselves as such.

Of course not. I was just illustrating that I'm familiar with the vast scale that is the Jewish faith. I think we've derailed this long enough though back to the topic at hand is it ok to wear something in a public school that is a symbol of ones faith.

While the don't bother me another poster pointed out a great point. Nothing in Christianity calls out a cross necklace as a requirement to practice the faith (and some would argue the necklaces create a false idol but that's a whole different topic) where as a kippah/head covering, turban, hijab, and many other things are requirements to be in line with the faith hnder certain observation levels.

 

[ronandannette]

Of course not. I was just illustrating that I'm familiar with the vast scale that is the Jewish faith. I think we've derailed this long enough though back to the topic at hand is it ok to wear something in a public school that is a symbol of ones faith.

While the don't bother me another poster pointed out a great point. Nothing in Christianity calls out a cross necklace as a requirement to practice the faith (and some would argue the necklaces create a false idol but that's a whole different topic) where as a kippah/head covering, turban, hijab, and many other things are requirements to be in line with the faith hnder certain observation levels.

Sure, but what would possibly be the point of excluding one, if all the other visible symbols of various faiths are being worn?

 

[Westcoastwild]

Of course not. I was just illustrating that I'm familiar with the vast scale that is the Jewish faith. I think we've derailed this long enough though back to the topic at hand is it ok to wear something in a public school that is a symbol of ones faith.

While the don't bother me another poster pointed out a great point. Nothing in Christianity calls out a cross necklace as a requirement to practice the faith (and some would argue the necklaces create a false idol but that's a whole different topic) where as a kippah/head covering, turban, hijab, and many other things are requirements to be in line with the faith hnder certain observation levels.

Ah, ok. Right, I understand that you understand.

Back on topic- I agree with your second point as I said above. The religious tshirts and cross necklaces do not fall under the same category as specific garments or dietary issues that are protected under the constitution.

 

[Mom2FiveKidz]

I mean truly Orthodox men usually can't work specific times, pray several times a day, wear their beards long, I'm not talking the Orthodox that has been more popular recently that Jared Kushner is which is really more conservatice even though it is is modern Orthodox. When I think Orthodox Jewish I think of Hassidism and other groups. Of course that's on me but when I hear Orthodox I think of traditional Orthodox. Those are the types where a traditionally Orthodox man can't touch or talk to too long someone of the opposite sex especially if they were are not also Jewish. They wouldn't be able to be near their female students during their periods etc.

You're talking about a subset of Orthodoxy.

The people I've worked with have all been women. None were Hassidic, but they were definitely Orthodox. They observed the rules of kashrut and Shabbat. Teaching is a profession that usually takes place on the weekends and starts and ends relatively early, so they were able to make it home by sunset on Friday, and were excused from anything work related on Saturday. They wore conservative clothing, and the one who was married covered her hair. At the time I worked with them, the children I was working with were all under 8, so periods were not an issue.

I myself am a Christian, and it drives me nuts when other people who don't share all of my beliefs get to decide that I'm not really Christian because when they imagine a Christian they imagine someone who opposes gay marriage, or who evangelizes, or who does some other thing that I don't do. I think that deciding that someone isn't really Orthodox because they don't fit with your stereotype is similar.

 

[Shanti]

As long as parents don't get their panties in a wad if a Jewish teacher tells a child "Happy Hanukkah" or a Muslim teacher says "Happy Ramadan". And please don't tell me that would never happen.

That's what the law is there to protect teacher's right to say.

 

[piccolopat]

Society would be much better off if people learned about other religions and cultures and learned that it is OK that people are different. When we can celebrate our differences rather than being offended by other cultures and beliefs, life is usually much better. I have no problem with any teacher or student wearing clothing or jewelry related to their faith with one exception. I do not believe garb that covers a person's face should be permitted as a matter of safety and because it prevents the individual from fully participating with others.

 

[Westcoastwild]

@Mom2FiveKidz


Exactly what I was trying to say before I got too tangled up in the subset issue!

I agree with your second paragraph. That issue seems to come up a lot in towns with a dominant denomination. I sometimes wonder how some people can completely overlook the basic definition of a certain word. It's defined by a belief not by how one practices in the name of that belief.

 

[Colleen27]

Sure, but what would possibly be the point of excluding one, if all the other visible symbols of various faiths are being worn?

To avoid conflict and controversy. Prohibiting requirements of faith, such as the hijab or kippah, violates the constitutional rights of the wearer. Prohibiting optional items of personal expression does not. And while the cross may not generate controversy most places, allowing the cross while banning other equivalent expressions of other faiths (say, a pentagram necklace) drifts into legally questionable territory. So it is easier to just disallow all expressions of faith that aren't actual tenets of religious practice than to deal with the consequences of allowing them, whether in whole or in part.

 

[DawnM]

Yes, I think they should be able to wear a necklace, scarf, or whatever represents their religious beliefs.

 

[wilkeliza]

Sure, but what would possibly be the point of excluding one, if all the other visible symbols of various faiths are being worn?

I wasn't saying it was right but the point would be that if you say you need it because your faith says you have to versus I need it because it represents my faith but it isn't a requirement that is 2 different things. A turban doesn't represent the faith it is a part of it. Same with a hijab. It is not an arbitrary representation but rather part of the practice. So a school could not ban all scarfs or head coverings with out some exceptions for those that are religiously required. So for jewlery if they said no jewlery I can't thing of a religion off the top of my head that requires specific jewelry (maybe Hindu not sure if my friends bracelt is custom based or faith based I just know she can't take it off).

 

[CarolAnn856]

I wasn't saying it was right but the point would be that if you say you need it because your faith says you have to versus I need it because it represents my faith but it isn't a requirement that is 2 different things. A turban doesn't represent the faith it is a part of it. Same with a hijab. It is not an arbitrary representation but rather part of the practice. So a school could not ban all scarfs or head coverings with out some exceptions for those that are religiously required. So for jewlery if they said no jewlery I can't thing of a religion off the top of my head that requires specific jewelry (maybe Hindu not sure if my friends bracelt is custom based or faith based I just know she can't take it off).

I know that Sikhs and many Hindus wear a Kara (a bracelet made of steel, or I think, iron) as part of the practice of their religion.

 

[wilkeliza]

I know that Sikhs and many Hindus wear a Kara (a bracelet made of steel, or I think, iron) as part of the practice of their religion.

That must be what she has. She never really talks about it just said one time it gives her problems at the airport because she can not physically take it off.

 

[ronandannette]

I wasn't saying it was right but the point would be that if you say you need it because your faith says you have to versus I need it because it represents my faith but it isn't a requirement that is 2 different things. A turban doesn't represent the faith it is a part of it. Same with a hijab. It is not an arbitrary representation but rather part of the practice. So a school could not ban all scarfs or head coverings with out some exceptions for those that are religiously required. So for jewlery if they said no jewlery I can't thing of a religion off the top of my head that requires specific jewelry (maybe Hindu not sure if my friends bracelt is custom based or faith based I just know she can't take it off).

Although I wouldn't call it an "arbitrary representation", millions of Muslim women world-wide that don't wear hijab would assure you it's a choice.

 

[CarolAnn856]

Although I wouldn't call it an "arbitrary representation", millions of Muslim women world-wide that don't wear hijab would assure you it's a choice.

I always assumed that it was along the lines of which type of Muslim one is, just like there is Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Judiasm (and others). Some Jewish women cover their hair, some don't, based on which practice they follow.

But, even if that is not the case, something like wearing a cross necklace has never been a part of the practice of the religion, just the expression, whereas choosing to wear the scarf is practice.