tilikums' life today

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livndisney

DIS Veteran
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
i have already said that i think keiko wasn't a failure. he died of pneumona - that not a rare thing in whales. he was freed in 1998 and died in 2003.
he had five years of freedom - people make it sound like he died as soon as he was released.

there is a documentary about him being released:

http://www.keikotheuntoldstory.com/
Keiko was not a "success". Your data on his release is not correct. He was flown to a holding pen in Iceland in Sept of 98. In 2002 when he first left his netted pen it was hoped he would join a pod off Norway. That did not happen and Keiko instead enjoyed the company of humans in Halso Norway. Keiko beached himself in December of 03 and died.

Even the person who oversaw the "release" of Keiko, Jean Michael Cousteau has said these animals can not be released.

Truth be told he was "free" about 15 months before becoming ill and dying.

How is a dead whale in the wild better than a live whale in captivity?


And once again Keiko's life before his "release" should not be compared to the animals at Sea World. Keiko was not cared for in captivity as the whales at Sea World are.
 

livndisney

DIS Veteran
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
captive born whales - release them to a sea pen with their mothers or other whales that they have known from capitivity.

keep the questions coming! for a proper professional opinion - it best to get in touch with the people who released Keiko.
EXCELLENT idea! From Jean Micheal Cousteau's blog:

"So I have no reason to believe that other orcas who have spent their lives in captivity could be successfully reintroduced to their pod or to a wild oceanic environment, even if the vast funds necessary were available to rehabilitate them for the wild."
 

Shamurocks

SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
but why won't the guy take the $1million for the release of lolita? the stadium shows are half empty most of the time.

i don't understand it :sad1:
I don't understand it either, no-one who has the power to, seems to want to do anything about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggEfjj609M
This series of videos is well worth a watch, if you haven't already. There's a bit in there about the $1mil offer too.

From Jean Micheal Cousteau's blog:

"So I have no reason to believe that other orcas who have spent their lives in captivity could be successfully reintroduced to their pod or to a wild oceanic environment, even if the vast funds necessary were available to rehabilitate them for the wild."
That's interesting that someone so close to the release effort would see it in that way. Maybe there's still a lot we don't know about his release.
 
  • marleygirl

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Oct 1, 2010
    How is a dead whale in the wild better than a live whale in captivity?

    [/QUOTE]

    Well , first you can pose the same questions in "human terms"...why don't people like prison? I mean they(prisoners) are fed,clothed ,given free medical care(at taxpayers expense),can get educated ,can work or choose not too.And they have SO much time on their hands...BUT I like my freedom,although I have to work and don't get "taken care of" ,have to pay for my schooling and 3 meals a day,no free medical or free medication,no free clothing.BUT.. I get my free will,and my family to visit ANYTIME I want..and all the other things that come with having my freedoms.So if the option were to be would I rather "exist" in prison until I am 100 years old or die at even 50 years old LIVING and doing what I want and what is natural and being with my family? That is a no brainer...AND like I have said before prisoners commit crimes that lead to them be detained..why are we doing this to innocent mammals who have committed no crimes?
     

    marleygirl

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Oct 1, 2010
    And once again Keiko's life before his "release" should not be compared to the animals at Sea World. Keiko was not cared for in captivity as the whales at Sea World are.[/QUOTE]

    Seaworld is owned by the Blackstone Group:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone_Group
    They are NOT an almost non profit organization..it IS about Money as Julieannbabe states...they do good deeds so you wont question other things..I also previoulsly believed that $eaworld isn't involved in "those things" either,because they do good.Ok they do some good things ,but again,it helps their "image"..Its also a good tax write-off,which you need when you are a billion dollar company..plus it draws people who feel like they are doing good by donating to a pass !
     

    livndisney

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 11, 2007
    And once again Keiko's life before his "release" should not be compared to the animals at Sea World. Keiko was not cared for in captivity as the whales at Sea World are.
    Seaworld is owned by the Blackstone Group:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone_Group
    They are NOT an almost non profit organization..it IS about Money as Julieannbabe states...they do good deeds so you wont question other things..I also previoulsly believed that $eaworld isn't involved in "those things" either,because they do good.Ok they do some good things ,but again,it helps their "image"..Its also a good tax write-off,which you need when you are a billion dollar company..plus it draws people who feel like they are doing good by donating to a pass ![/QUOTE]


    You post is a little hard to understand and even though you completely missed my point, I will take a stab at it.....

    1. People BUYING a pass is not donating to a park. I don't "donate" money to Disney when I buy a pass.

    2. The care I was speaking about was: Keiko was in a shamefully small tank and did not get proper care, which is why there was such and outcry from people.

    Sea World animals DO receive better care and live in larger environments than Keiko.

    3. I am well aware of who owns the parks. As far as Blackstone, they JUST bought the SW parks. So I have no idea why you brought them into this conversation. The whales were at SW LONG before Blackstone.

    4. I am not able to follow your statement about "good deeds". But the simple fact is SW in both CA and FL DO rescue and rehab and release animals. Those animals do not make money for them. In fact those animals cost them money. It is not cheap to transport and care for injured animals. but Sea World does it.
     

    KBF

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2009
    welcome back KBF.

    just want to ask you about the 'dental work' on an orcas teeth - i posted this but it got closed so people couldn't reply.
    do you think it is right to do this without any pain relief to an orca?

    (reposted the info here so you can reply)

    SeaWorld, Six Flags and other marine mammal parks have managed to keep this cloaked in relative secrecy. The damage usually occurs from threat displays involving two orcas separated by a steel gate. In some instances the broken teeth lead to behaviors of grinding down the jaw itself, probably from chronic pain. There is one image included in the collection (Orca Teeth 1) where you can see how this orca has worn the jaw. This particular orca has been observed using the corner of the performance stage like a big file; swimming by at high speed with an open mouth biting the corner of stage and wearing down the bone. It is also common for orcas to "go at it" while separated by gates and teeth fragments have been found on the bottom of the pool afterwards. Contributors to the poor oral conditions of captive orcas include Jaw-popping (a form of threat display), tooth grinding, tooth "flattening" and tooth "drilling".

    Few people are aware of this practice whereas captive orcas routinely have holes drilled in their teeth as well as grinding or “flattening” of their teeth. And very few people understand, or have even thought about, how the holes are drilled. Trainers are forbidden to speak of this practice publicly. SeaWorld trainers use a variable-speed tool (similar to a Dremel tool) with a stainless drill bit attached. The whales are conditioned to "accept" the noise, heat, vibration and obvious pain associated with drilling vertically through the tooth column and into the fleshy pulp below. Success is measured by blood spilling out of the hole, in which case it’s apparent the bore is complete. This entire procedure is performed without a local anesthetic for reasons which are not fully understood. For example, while the teeth of many of SeaWorld’s orcas are in train-wreck status, drilling and flushing routinely takes place regardless of whether the teeth are infected or in need of this procedure. The training and education staff at SeaWorld contends that the thrice daily "tooth flushes" are "superior dental care". What they don't tell you is that the teeth have holes in them, and if the impacted fish isn't flushed with a Waterpick daily, an infection would likely occur. This is done by filling the reservoir of a device with a Betadine solution which is pumped down into the jaw. In the case of Tilikum, the orca involved in the February 24, 2010 death of trainer Dawn Brancheau, this procedure is, or was, performed three times a day.
    Hi Julieannbabe, hope all has been well since we last talked!

    Regarding the teeth issue, no one knows the affects anesthesia would have on the whales. You cant put them to sleep because they wouldnt be able to breath. Killer Whales use one half of their brain at all times. When a whale "sleeps" half of its brain sleeps and the other half stays awake to monitor surfacing and breathing. After some time, the other half of the brain sleeps while the other controls surfacing and breathing. So a whale is never fully asleep. Half of its brain is always awake. If you gave it anesthesia you cant keep a whale surfaced on a slide out area or other flat surface because it cant support its own weight on a surface like that for long. It wouldnt drown, but its insides would eventually be crushed by its body weight. Im not sure if the whales receive a shot which numbs the area where the tooth is being worked on. It would be something interesting to find out.

    I know for a fact that teeth drilling is not performed 3 times a day. It takes places once and its done forever on a particular tooth. A tooth that may result in an infection if not treated. Yes the solution they are flushed with is done a few times a day, but its like brushing your teeth daily.

    SeaWorld, for example, routinely does the following to CLOAK the teeth issue:
    1. They will use a juvenile or dominant orca with good teeth for all public photo shoots.
    Thats photography 101. You always find the best subject to shoot. However, if you have ever seen the Shamu shows, you know that there are live cameras filming the whales during the entire show, and you can see the shot on the live screen. No matter what whale is out in the pool. I have seen numerous times the camera get close up shots where you can see the teeth. If Seaworld really wanted to hide the issue, I would think they would prohibit their cameras from shooting as close.

    2. They will create an angle where the photographer can only see the top jaw (in many cases the damage is to the lower jaw only)
    This is just something quick I found. This website that promotes the Orlando area theme parks. Look at the photograph that represents Seaworld, you can clearly see the teeth on the bottom jaw. And they are not perfect. Which leads me to believe Seaworld again is not hiding anything.
    http://www.oceanwalk8207.com/florida_attractions.htm

    3. They won't let anyone close to an animal, citing "safety" reasons (how ironic, since they tout how safe things are).
    In the underwater viewing you can get face to face with the any of the whales. Some come up to the glass and open and close their mouth to the point that you can see the teeth. Seaworld isnt hiding the ones with the bad teeth either. Infact Tilly spends most of his time in the underwater viewing area. Ofcourse they arent going to let an inexperienced person around a killer whale, it would be crazy on their part.

    4. They sell the public on “superior dental care” as they often perform the tooth flush husbandry behavior publicly several times a day.
    Yes, sometimes you can see this procedure done before a show. Nothing to hide there.

    5. PR pictures were always done mindful of avoiding mouth close-ups for fear of inadvertent disclosure.
    Again, Go back to that site with the picture, or think about Seaworlds live cameras during the show getting closeup shots of the whales.

    Unfortunately, I have never been to Miami Seaquarium, but if there was ever a whale in need of help, it would be Lolita. Her tank is way to small.

    I don't want to hurt the rep of your post KBF because you made some very good points. But I would like to point out that not all the tanks in the enclosure are 36ft deep.
    http://cetacousin.bplaced.net/orca/park/swf.html
    The side pools are in fact only 15ft deep, and the up-close pool 27ft (there is no data for the shaded pool, although I can tell you from having seen it that it is deeper then the side pools, possibly about 25ft)
    However, I have never seen Tilly kept in these side pools, only in the shaded pool, the up-close pool or the stadium tank, which are deeper then he is long. I have also never seen the females/calves have only access to these pool, except during show time. After the show they have access to a deeper pool.
    If your recall the construction on the pools Fall/Winter 2009, the point of the construction was to refurb the pools and make them deeper.
     
  • Rip

    Proud Redhead
    Joined
    May 21, 2009
    how can anyone defend captivity? you know that you can't . every single one of you.

    why are they made to do tricks - why doesn't the marine parks just let them be to swim around and not made to perform?

    because a swimming dolphin/whale won't pull as much money in as a performing one.

    people keep saying that seaworld care, etc. they probably do but they aren't doing it for the sake of it - it is a business. you all seem to forget it all about the $$$$. Everything in this life is about $$$$$.
    Seaworld is a muti-million pound operation.

    for people that are pro-capitvity what happens when captured whales want to migrate? no marine park can build a tank big enough compared to the ocean.
    I thought you said in the OP that you weren't trying to cause trouble? Seems like you started this whole thread with a specific agenda in mind.

    Not sure who you think is "pro-captivity", but releasing an animal that has been essentially domesticated for 2-3 decades is irresponsible and stupid. You're condemning them to die.
     

    Rip

    Proud Redhead
    Joined
    May 21, 2009
    thanks for the answers regarding pix with the whales.

    not sure what to make of seaworld buying/importing the pilot whale from japan.

    they say it is stranded but it in a marine park? it would have got stranded in the first place because of the fisherman driving it to the beach.

    so if seaworld, america are buying it - are they involved in the whole cove thing?are they 'rescuing' the whale or have they done a deal with a marine park in japan to 'capture' it then they buy it from them so it looks like they are 'saving' it?

    KBF you half sensible - i am a bit confused on this one - pls help me out here

    http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/editorial-100921-1.html
    See, now you're intentionally using complete fabrications in order to imply guilt. It's essentially nothing more or less than lying. :)
     

    Shamurocks

    SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2010
    If your recall the construction on the pools Fall/Winter 2009, the point of the construction was to refurb the pools and make them deeper.
    Ah, I did forget about that the refurb, thanks for reminding me. These were on the "side pools" were they not? Any idea what kind of work they did, and how deep the pools are now?
     

    KBF

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2009
    Ah, I did forget about that the refurb, thanks for reminding me. These were on the "side pools" were they not? Any idea what kind of work they did, and how deep the pools are now?
    I know every pool was refurbished except the front show pool and the covered pool in the back. My understanding is that all the pools are now 36 feet deep with the exception of the medical pool which has a false bottom that can be raised or lowered for emergencies. The side pools were done last fall/winter. The Dine With Shamu Pool was refurbished Spring 2009.
     
  • Shamurocks

    SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2010
    I know every pool was refurbished except the front show pool and the covered pool in the back. My understanding is that all the pools are now 36 feet deep with the exception of the medical pool which has a false bottom that can be raised or lowered for emergencies. The side pools were done last fall/winter. The Dine With Shamu Pool was refurbished Spring 2009.
    Thanks for the info :goodvibes
     

    KBF

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2009
    Whoever that was who posted on the Seaworld facebook page asking how deep the pools were. You dont believe me? lol.
     

    Shamurocks

    SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2010
    Obviously not lol and that's my picture they've used... :sad1:

    And now they've disappeared... weird
     

    KBF

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2009
    Obviously not lol and that's my picture they've used... :sad1:

    And now they've disappeared... weird
    Well whoever it was, I didnt mean to offend you if I did. You had every right to go find out on your own. Im sorry.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    I thought you said in the OP that you weren't trying to cause trouble? Seems like you started this whole thread with a specific agenda in mind.

    Not sure who you think is "pro-captivity", but releasing an animal that has been essentially domesticated for 2-3 decades is irresponsible and stupid. You're condemning them to die.
    how can a 12 tonne orca ever become domesticated? when releasing them you don't just dump them back in the sea and say 'get on with it'.

    would be nice if you had thread the whole thread before talking nonsense.
     

    Disneymommy2006

    "...keep moving forward..."
    Joined
    Jan 23, 2008
    I think it's interesting that suddenly there seems to be brand new Disers on this (very opinionated ) board...I'm wondering if we have a puppet here???
     
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