tilikums' life today

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julieannbabe

<font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
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Mar 31, 2003
Would just like to make a point about this, PR pictures showing perfect teeth. This is for the same reason that it's unlikely you'll see a model with imperfect teeth in PR shots for other companies. You want the whales to look at their best, doesn't necessarily mean they are "cloaking" the issue. Especially as hundreds of people take photos of these whales everyday so there is no real way of hiding their teeth.
you haven't answered the point about the drilling the teeth without pain relief.

how can you compare a model to an orca?? a model isn't gonna have her teeth drilled out is she? all the art department to is photoshop her teeth - make them whiter, etc.
 

AdventureLover67

Mouseketeer
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
As I've stated before, I'm a firm believer in not taking a healthy animal from the wild for entertainment purposes.

As KBF has stated, SW has not done this since the early 70's so to keep bashing them for a practice that took place nearly 40 years ago is ridiculous.

The babies born into captivity and injured mammals taken into rehabillitation are NOT the same as one born into the wild. Many people have stated" to put them in a water pen to release them" and as easy and wonderful as that sounds, it's not. I'm also curious how long people think it will take for a pod of Orca's to come along and accept these Orcas? They are social animals and would die without a family. They have been exposed to humans and being placed back in the wild after this amonunt of time would prove as a danger to them as the humans are the ones who have cared for them by providing food, social stimulus and pain relief.

As far as the dental issues, yes SW does take care of this. Animals in the wild do injure/break teeth which at times abcess and the animal dies from infection. Personally, I appreciate SW caring for the animals.

Several years ago one of my teeth were knocked out. If someone had wanted to take my picture, you better believe I would want the photographer to take it at my best angle. I mean no offense but this statement is just common sense. I work at a spay and neuter clinic and have
pictures of surgeries but I do not post them on my facebook account or in public places. They are used strictly for educational purposes but I will post the nice pictures of our animals when they don't look drugged up. Hopefully the meaning of what I just stated as related to this topic made sense.

I would like to thank KBF for all of the facts and opinions stated throughout this thread. It has certainly taught me a lot and I do appreciate all of the efforts SW makes to give these animals the best care available in this situation.

One last and extremely shocking question I do have is that if some of the anti captivity posters knew that release was not possible because of imprintation, no pod to join, etc. do you feel it better for the animal to be destroyed? Or if not, do you feel SW does their best to care for these creatures?
 

Shamurocks

SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
All of Shamu Stadium's pools are 36 feet deep. The only one that is less is the medical pool. Where whales are only kept if there is an emergency. Its not as deep so the trainers can easily stand in the water to assist the whale. Again no whale is kept there unless there is an emergency.
I don't want to hurt the rep of your post KBF because you made some very good points. But I would like to point out that not all the tanks in the enclosure are 36ft deep.
http://cetacousin.bplaced.net/orca/park/swf.html
The side pools are in fact only 15ft deep, and the up-close pool 27ft (there is no data for the shaded pool, although I can tell you from having seen it that it is deeper then the side pools, possibly about 25ft)
However, I have never seen Tilly kept in these side pools, only in the shaded pool, the up-close pool or the stadium tank, which are deeper then he is long. I have also never seen the females/calves have only access to these pool, except during show time. After the show they have access to a deeper pool.
 
  • Shamurocks

    SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2010
    you haven't answered the point about the drilling the teeth without pain relief.

    how can you compare a model to an orca?? a model isn't gonna have her teeth drilled out is she? all the art department to is photoshop her teeth - make them whiter, etc.
    I have no facts/info on orca dental procedures so I wasn't going to answer that point without fact. I will put it next on my list of things to research. Where abouts did you get your information from, I might use it as a starting point.

    Ok, so maybe a model wanted the best choice of things to compare it to. I think my point still stands about why they use those certain pictures.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    One last and extremely shocking question I do have is that if some of the anti captivity posters knew that release was not possible because of imprintation, no pod to join, etc. do you feel it better for the animal to be destroyed? Or if not, do you feel SW does their best to care for these creatures?
    of course you can release the whale back into a seapen and monitor it.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    I don't want to hurt the rep of your post KBF because you made some very good points. But I would like to point out that not all the tanks in the enclosure are 36ft deep.
    http://cetacousin.bplaced.net/orca/park/swf.html
    The side pools are in fact only 15ft deep, and the up-close pool 27ft (there is no data for the shaded pool, although I can tell you from having seen it that it is deeper then the side pools, possibly about 25ft)
    However, I have never seen Tilly kept in these side pools, only in the shaded pool, the up-close pool or the stadium tank, which are deeper then he is long. I have also never seen the females/calves have only access to these pool, except during show time. After the show they have access to a deeper pool.
    slightly off topic - lolita's tank at miami aquarium - at its deepest is 20 ft. are they kidding?
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    I have no facts/info on orca dental procedures so I wasn't going to answer that point without fact. I will put it next on my list of things to research. Where abouts did you get your information from, I might use it as a starting point.

    Ok, so maybe a model wanted the best choice of things to compare it to. I think my point still stands about why they use those certain pictures.
    there is this: http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-hidden-cost-of-captivity-oral-health-of-killer-whales-exposed/

    and this: http://www.prlog.org/10861619-killer-whales-killer-teeth-poor-dental-health-leads-to-premature-mortality-of-captive-orcas.html
     
  • Shamurocks

    SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2010
    Thanks for the links, I will definitely have to look into it.

    slightly off topic - lolita's tank at miami aquarium - at its deepest is 20 ft. are they kidding?
    I feel sorry for Lolita, but what really makes me angry is that the government agencies responsible for captive animal welfare know her tank is of an illegal size but seem to do nothing about it :mad:
    Interesting in those links you sent me that Lolita's teeth seem to be in some of the best condition.

    Something I also forgot to mention earlier, which is more on topic, a lot of SeaWorld regulars have said that Tilikum has been spending a lot of time with Trua, his grandson, recently.
     

    AdventureLover67

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Mar 10, 2009
    of course you can release the whale back into a seapen and monitor it.
    I'm not trying to sound argumentative but you didn't answer the question. How long is it appropriate in your opinion to keep a Orca isolated in a small pen hoping that a pod accepts it? You cannot release one without a pod. What if the animal is imprinted?
    My point is that not every animal is releasable due to various factors. What should be done with those that cannot be released back into the wild?
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    I'm not trying to sound argumentative but you didn't answer the question. How long is it appropriate in your opinion to keep a Orca isolated in a small pen hoping that a pod accepts it? You cannot release one without a pod. What if the animal is imprinted?
    My point is that not every animal is releasable due to various factors. What should be done with those that cannot be released back into the wild?
    it wouldn't be a small pen though - would it? it would be huge compared to the tanks that they are used to capitvity.

    from this link:

    http://www.orcanetwork.org/captivity/culture.html

    'It is naïve to say that "in order to survive, Lolita would need to become part of a pod and achieve acceptance among other whales - an event that almost certainly would not occur." Resident killer whales are members of the only mammalian population in which no dispersal of either sex has been recorded (Baird 2000). Family bonds, once established, presumably at birth, endure for life. Lolita was forcibly removed from her family in 1970, but many members of her family who were alive then are still alive, and all the members of her family today can recognize the vocalizations Lolita continues to produce (Deecke, et al. 2000, Thomsen, et al. 2001). Lolita remains a member of her pod. A fair test of this ability would be to set up telephone communication between Lolita in her tank and her family in Puget Sound.'

    also a proposal of retiring lolita - should answer your questions here:

    http://www.orcanetwork.org/captivity/2007proposaldraft.html
     

    AdventureLover67

    Mouseketeer
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    Mar 10, 2009
    it wouldn't be a small pen though - would it? it would be huge compared to the tanks that they are used to capitvity.

    from this link:

    http://www.orcanetwork.org/captivity/culture.html

    'It is naïve to say that "in order to survive, Lolita would need to become part of a pod and achieve acceptance among other whales - an event that almost certainly would not occur." Resident killer whales are members of the only mammalian population in which no dispersal of either sex has been recorded (Baird 2000). Family bonds, once established, presumably at birth, endure for life. Lolita was forcibly removed from her family in 1970, but many members of her family who were alive then are still alive, and all the members of her family today can recognize the vocalizations Lolita continues to produce (Deecke, et al. 2000, Thomsen, et al. 2001). Lolita remains a member of her pod. A fair test of this ability would be to set up telephone communication between Lolita in her tank and her family in Puget Sound.'

    also a proposal of retiring lolita - should answer your questions here:

    http://www.orcanetwork.org/captivity/2007proposaldraft.html
    I know nothing of Lolita. The thread has been devoted to Tilly and his circumstance which is totally different.

    There is no way to compare the two whales and again I ask, what should be done with the ones who cannot be released? In this case, do you feel it best to euthenize or do what SW does? I'm only curious what you feel as I also would prefer animals NOT be in captivity but at times there are circumstances beyond control.
    Any thoughts?
     
  • julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    I know nothing of Lolita. The thread has been devoted to Tilly and his circumstance which is totally different.

    There is no way to compare the two whales and again I ask, what should be done with the ones who cannot be released? In this case, do you feel it best to euthenize or do what SW does? I'm only curious what you feel as I also would prefer animals NOT be in captivity but at times there are circumstances beyond control.
    Any thoughts?
    it wasn't my intention to compare the two whales - i just wanted to give you an idea of the proposals of releasing a whale back into the wild.

    you should do a bit of research on lolita the whale in miami sea aquarium - tilly got it good compared to lolita. thats how bad lolita has got it.

    they can be released - who says they can't be released? the marine parks??

    euthenize - no way. what does SW do for the whales that couldn't be done by releasing them back in a sea pen - the whales can still be monitored in their natural waters.

    why is releasing a whale beyond our control? the marine parks won't do it as they are scared that they will loose to much money.
     

    livndisney

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 11, 2007
    it wasn't my intention to compare the two whales - i just wanted to give you an idea of the proposals of releasing a whale back into the wild.

    you should do a bit of research on lolita the whale in miami sea aquarium - tilly got it good compared to lolita. thats how bad lolita has got it.

    they can be released - who says they can't be released? the marine parks??

    euthenize - no way. what does SW do for the whales that couldn't be done by releasing them back in a sea pen - the whales can still be monitored in their natural waters.

    why is releasing a whale beyond our control? the marine parks won't do it as they are scared that they will loose to much money.
    Again, I have to ask for your data on a successful release of a long term captive whale.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    i have already said that i think keiko wasn't a failure. he died of pneumona - that not a rare thing in whales. he was freed in 1998 and died in 2003.
    he had five years of freedom - people make it sound like he died as soon as he was released.

    there is a documentary about him being released:

    http://www.keikotheuntoldstory.com/
     

    AdventureLover67

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Mar 10, 2009
    it wasn't my intention to compare the two whales - i just wanted to give you an idea of the proposals of releasing a whale back into the wild.

    you should do a bit of research on lolita the whale in miami sea aquarium - tilly got it good compared to lolita. thats how bad lolita has got it.

    they can be released - who says they can't be released? the marine parks??

    euthenize - no way. what does SW do for the whales that couldn't be done by releasing them back in a sea pen - the whales can still be monitored in their natural waters.

    why is releasing a whale beyond our control? the marine parks won't do it as they are scared that they will loose to much money.
    Unfortunately release is not always an option....money has nothing to do with it.

    As a former wildlife rehabber (but I am not an expert) I know all to well that at times a release is not possible nor is it in the best interest of the animal.
    If it were as easy as putting them in this pen and then just opening the door, there is enough pressure from animal welfare groups that this would indeed happen.

    The only reason I keep responding to this thread is because I feel strongly that SW (and you cannot compare ANY captive animal outside of the US to SW) does the best care that they can for these animals. I also wish people would think the whole scenario through because release is not always an option. I do not want to be offensive to anyone but it is apparent to me that some people do not/will not comprehend this.

    I for one would not want to see Tilly or any other animal put into a release pen, open the door and see the animal be torn to shreds because it is in an unfamiliar environment. It could starve to death, die of loneliness, disease because it's body is no longer use to pure ocean water or approach humans as a food source and be easy prey for hunters.

    Julieannbabe, I think you really do have a love and compassion for animals but I will ask you to research what it means when an animal "imprints" on humans. While I think every single person who has followed this thread has agreed that whenever possible and animal should be returned to it's native habitat, it's not always possible.

    What should be done when it is NOT in the animals best interest to return it to nature?
     

    Shamurocks

    SeaWorld nut and newbie photographer
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2010
    julieannbabe, what's your views on what would be done with captive born whales if captive orca population were to start being released?

    I completely agree that Lolita is a perfect candidate to be released, I'm not sure on other wild-born captives but there is so much saying that Lolita's release could be a success that I feel we should at least try. But unfortunately I can't see Hurtz (sp?) letting that happen, he has been offered $1million to release her before but refuses to even discuss it...

    As for Keiko I'm not sure whether to call it a success or failure. For the most part his release was a success, he was a much healthier whale (recently I found out he grew to 35ft! :eek:) and did survive by his own means by at least 5 months when he went "missing" in the Atlantic. The only problem is he continued to seek human interaction and didn't integrate into a pod.

    I do think we should try with Lolita though, we know where her family is, we know she has at least some of the skills to survive since she was relatively old when captured.
    Tilly on the other hand, I'm still not sure. Maybe a Sea-pen would be best for him, especially if he continues not to be used in shows/interacted with properly. And I don't think they should keep breeding him or the population in the future will be almost all from one blood line and this will cause inbreeding. But in the real world, I can't see SW releasing him. And he gets good care from people who have looked after him for decades so he could definitely be in a worse position.

    So there's my $0.02.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    Unfortunately release is not always an option....money has nothing to do with it.
    of course money has everything to do with it. SW is a business - you think they would still attract the large crowds if there were no orcas performing.

    come on now.

    everything in this world is motivated by money.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    I for one would not want to see Tilly or any other animal put into a release pen, open the door and see the animal be torn to shreds because it is in an unfamiliar environment. It could starve to death, die of loneliness, disease because it's body is no longer use to pure ocean water or approach humans as a food source and be easy prey for hunters.
    the door wouldn't be just 'open' to the sea pen though - the whale would be monitored for quite a while before this would happen.

    animals imprinting on humans - you mean when us humans have taught the whales in capitivity all that they know? that simple - they had a pod/family before they were captured. you put them in a sea pen - still with the human contact and gradually over a period of time - withdraw that contact. then when you release the whale if they want to come back to the pen then they can. Keiko has boats following him - some time - so if he wanted he had that human contact again BUT it was his choice.

    i am no scientist! so i am sure someone involved in the release of keiko could tell you more in depth how they did it:

    http://www.keikotheuntoldstory.com/keiko/thestory/

    'While I think every single person who has followed this thread has agreed that whenever possible and animal should be returned to it's native habitat, it's not always possible.' - you wrong here - people on here agree with captivity full stop.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    julieannbabe, what's your views on what would be done with captive born whales if captive orca population were to start being released?
    captive born whales - release them to a sea pen with their mothers or other whales that they have known from capitivity.

    keep the questions coming! for a proper professional opinion - it best to get in touch with the people who released Keiko.
     

    julieannbabe

    <font color=blue>I am a <font color=red>summer <fo
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2003
    I completely agree that Lolita is a perfect candidate to be released, I'm not sure on other wild-born captives but there is so much saying that Lolita's release could be a success that I feel we should at least try. But unfortunately I can't see Hurtz (sp?) letting that happen, he has been offered $1million to release her before but refuses to even discuss it...
    but why won't the guy take the $1million for the release of lolita? the stadium shows are half empty most of the time.

    i don't understand it :sad1:
     
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